Bleach Zangetsu or No Zangetsu
- Thread starter Vexarian
- Start date
If I am reading your post right, your saying that the Ichigo didn't have Zangetsu until he went Shikai?
Because I disagree with that. Its a little fuzzy what was the case before Byakuya destroyed the Shinigami power that Rukia gave Ichigo. But everything from the inner world scene and on would have to be Zangetsu.
If it wasn't Zangetsu then, then how could Zangetsu have responded to Ichigo call? And it talked to him before Ichigo went Shikai.
Because I disagree with that. Its a little fuzzy what was the case before Byakuya destroyed the Shinigami power that Rukia gave Ichigo. But everything from the inner world scene and on would have to be Zangetsu.
If it wasn't Zangetsu then, then how could Zangetsu have responded to Ichigo call? And it talked to him before Ichigo went Shikai.
Every time we've had this discussion, I've been the one that's demanded to show huge amounts of support for their side. I'd actually like to see that go the other way. I want you guys to show your homework, and prove beyond reasonable doubt that what you claim is true.
You know. For a change of pace, and all that.
Or I could just copypasta my prior points here. It's not like your argument has changed at all, so everything I said is still completely relevant.
You know. For a change of pace, and all that.
Or I could just copypasta my prior points here. It's not like your argument has changed at all, so everything I said is still completely relevant.
I don't exactly remember everything that you posted before.
But going by what you said in the linked post; going by the fact that Zangetsu (chapter link) talked to Ichigo before his Shinigami powers fully returned, Zangetsu existed before his Shikai form.
I can agree that he was 'mostly' formless, but he definitely existed.
But going by what you said in the linked post; going by the fact that Zangetsu (chapter link) talked to Ichigo before his Shinigami powers fully returned, Zangetsu existed before his Shikai form.
I can agree that he was 'mostly' formless, but he definitely existed.
But isn't Rukia wielding the same sword that Ichigo runs around with?
Their hilts look the same. It's just a bigger version that Ichigo had. At least prior to Ichigo getting the awakened Zengetsu.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/1/00-cover/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/1/43/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/66/06/
Their hilts look the same. It's just a bigger version that Ichigo had. At least prior to Ichigo getting the awakened Zengetsu.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/1/00-cover/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/1/43/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/66/06/
Yeah, they can be. You're just demanding absolute perfection before you acquiesce the point, which is something that could never be provided so long as human error in the form of drawing from panel-to-panel across over 300 chapters is in effect.
I've said it before. I will say it again. That argument is not valid, as it relies on artistic perfection from Tite, along with Tite not changing his mind on minor details in ornamentation and outfits.
I've built a more-or-less airtight argument using logic and scans that proves it could not have been Zangetsu, and must have been either Sode, or some derivative of Sode that was partially influenced by Ichigo's own spiritual energy.
Your counter to this argument is a minor extraneous detail in the artwork.
Forgive me if I don't take that even the least bit seriously. :mellow:
I've said it before. I will say it again. That argument is not valid, as it relies on artistic perfection from Tite, along with Tite not changing his mind on minor details in ornamentation and outfits.
I've built a more-or-less airtight argument using logic and scans that proves it could not have been Zangetsu, and must have been either Sode, or some derivative of Sode that was partially influenced by Ichigo's own spiritual energy.
Your counter to this argument is a minor extraneous detail in the artwork.
Forgive me if I don't take that even the least bit seriously. :mellow:
Didnt we go over this already in another thread?
Before the shattered shaft, Ichigo was using a version of Rukia's shinigami powers.
Like Ichigo was driving her car.
Then her bro shows up, wtfpwns him and the borrowed cars.
Like destroying the engine block of the car.
Then he has to go find his own now that he knows what the power would look like.
Like looking for a car now that he's driven on and knows what it looks like.
Before the shattered shaft, Ichigo was using a version of Rukia's shinigami powers.
Like Ichigo was driving her car.
Then her bro shows up, wtfpwns him and the borrowed cars.
Like destroying the engine block of the car.
Then he has to go find his own now that he knows what the power would look like.
Like looking for a car now that he's driven on and knows what it looks like.
Before giving Ichigo her powers, there were no strings/tassels on Sode. Ichigo's sword has them from the instant it appears until Zangetsu's Shikai appears.
When Rukia 'first' shows up, no tassels/strings. When Rukia returns to the world of the living with her powers back, Sode doesn't have any tassels/strings.
The fact that Rukia's zanpakto 'never' has those decorations outside of Shikai tells me that those tassels/strings are more than just Kubo adding decoration. If he just changed his mind, she would have had them when she first showed up, but lost them when she came back. Heck, the 'first issue' they only appear when Ichigo gains power.
When Ichigo regains his powers, Old Man Zangetsu calls a sword handle with those 'same' tassels/strings me.
I acknowledge and respect all the work you've done trying to prove your point. However, I disagree with your interpretation of the evidence.
When Rukia 'first' shows up, no tassels/strings. When Rukia returns to the world of the living with her powers back, Sode doesn't have any tassels/strings.
The fact that Rukia's zanpakto 'never' has those decorations outside of Shikai tells me that those tassels/strings are more than just Kubo adding decoration. If he just changed his mind, she would have had them when she first showed up, but lost them when she came back. Heck, the 'first issue' they only appear when Ichigo gains power.
When Ichigo regains his powers, Old Man Zangetsu calls a sword handle with those 'same' tassels/strings me.
I acknowledge and respect all the work you've done trying to prove your point. However, I disagree with your interpretation of the evidence.
What facts prove that it couldn't be Zangetsu? I don't want to scrounge through multiple posts trying to piece all that together.
As for my argument for why it could be Zangetsu?
First, as has been pointed out before, Zangetsu refers to a hilt that is the same shape as the one Ichigo originally carried as ME. That signifies that it should be Zangetsu. This is also the form it took before Ichigo knew Zangetsu's name.
On another point. Zanpakuto are an inner reflection of the Shinigami themselves, a part of them and their power. While Rukia did place her own power into Ichigo. If you think back to right after Ichigo got attacked by Byakuya. Urahara states that while he destroyed Rukia's power, Ichigo's own Shinigami power was able to hide.
For it to hide it would have first needed to be out. This means that Ichigo's power, where Zangetsu comes from, was active during the time he was using his Zanpakuto.
So is this sword merely the sealed state before Ichigo was able to achieve shikai? The only other person who seems to have a perm release shikai is none other than Kenpachi, and he doesn't even know his Zanpakuto's name. This means knowing the name of your Zanpakuto is not a requirement for having it in its shikai state, only using its shikai power.
So then, what is the sword Ichigo is carrying around then? Obviously he is able to channel a great amount of power throw it as shown by the little bout with Ishida. This would suggest it would have to be his own Zanpakuto, and not Rukias. Or at least give reason for it being that.
But it is still not necessarily just the sealed state before shikai either as evidenced by Kenpachi. So what?
I think that lies in what started the whole thing. Ichigo was original jumpstarted as a Shinigami with Rukia's power. It allowed him to achieve his own Shinigami power, but he was still relying on Rukia's power to jumpstart that. It seems that unless he was pushed hard, he didn't pull too much of his own power.
Basically what I am suggesting is that what the sword is, is Zangetsu being sealed because Ichigo relying on Rukia's power.
Think about it, to activate one's Shikai, one must use their own power as it is a reflection of their interaction with their Zanpakuto.
This means Ichigo's power, his Shinigami power, was being supressed by him relying mostly on Rukia's power. Hence why he did not immediately release into Zangetsu's Shikai form. Instead it was sealed off into the form we first witnessed. It would explain why his sword is similar to Rukia's, but would also mean that it would still be Zangetsu, just not a full realized one.
As for my argument for why it could be Zangetsu?
First, as has been pointed out before, Zangetsu refers to a hilt that is the same shape as the one Ichigo originally carried as ME. That signifies that it should be Zangetsu. This is also the form it took before Ichigo knew Zangetsu's name.
On another point. Zanpakuto are an inner reflection of the Shinigami themselves, a part of them and their power. While Rukia did place her own power into Ichigo. If you think back to right after Ichigo got attacked by Byakuya. Urahara states that while he destroyed Rukia's power, Ichigo's own Shinigami power was able to hide.
For it to hide it would have first needed to be out. This means that Ichigo's power, where Zangetsu comes from, was active during the time he was using his Zanpakuto.
So is this sword merely the sealed state before Ichigo was able to achieve shikai? The only other person who seems to have a perm release shikai is none other than Kenpachi, and he doesn't even know his Zanpakuto's name. This means knowing the name of your Zanpakuto is not a requirement for having it in its shikai state, only using its shikai power.
So then, what is the sword Ichigo is carrying around then? Obviously he is able to channel a great amount of power throw it as shown by the little bout with Ishida. This would suggest it would have to be his own Zanpakuto, and not Rukias. Or at least give reason for it being that.
But it is still not necessarily just the sealed state before shikai either as evidenced by Kenpachi. So what?
I think that lies in what started the whole thing. Ichigo was original jumpstarted as a Shinigami with Rukia's power. It allowed him to achieve his own Shinigami power, but he was still relying on Rukia's power to jumpstart that. It seems that unless he was pushed hard, he didn't pull too much of his own power.
Basically what I am suggesting is that what the sword is, is Zangetsu being sealed because Ichigo relying on Rukia's power.
Think about it, to activate one's Shikai, one must use their own power as it is a reflection of their interaction with their Zanpakuto.
This means Ichigo's power, his Shinigami power, was being supressed by him relying mostly on Rukia's power. Hence why he did not immediately release into Zangetsu's Shikai form. Instead it was sealed off into the form we first witnessed. It would explain why his sword is similar to Rukia's, but would also mean that it would still be Zangetsu, just not a full realized one.