Bleach Zangetsu or No Zangetsu

[the DragonBard]

Also, I can debunk the idea with a simple thought experiment.

Fact: Rukia did not know Ichigo had latent Shinigami powers.

Fact: Rukia tried to transfer a portion of her powers to Ichigo ignorant of the fact that he possessed latent Shinigami powers of his own, but with the intent of making Ichigo a temporary Shinigami.

Conclusion 1: The process can make anyone an 'effective' Shinigami.

Conclusion 2: In accordance with Conclusion 1, the process is self-contained. It doesn't 'wake up' latent powers, it gives an already existing power to someone else (in a percentile, according to Rukia). If functions independent of any latent spiritual talents.

Final Conclusion: Zangetsu was not technically involved with the blade at all, as the process was self-contained. It would have worked the same way on any human (though the size of the Zanpakuto would obviously change from person to person) regardless of whether or not they had latent Shinigami powers. This means that having latent Shinigami powers would not logically have any effect on the process, nor would the process wake those powers up, because the process works on normal humans, and not everybody has latent Shinigami powers.

Rukia didn't know he had latent powers, but still expected him to spontaneously transform into a Shinigami. That is my evidence that Zangetsu wasn't involved in the process. Because she didn't know about Zangetsu's existence, still expected the transfer to work, and the transfer did work (more or less) exactly like she intended. The only thing that happened differently is that she gave more of her power than she intended, but we know why that happened, and it had nothing to do with Zangetsu's existence (Ichigo's own spiritual energy was so large it messed with her powers, which caused her to make a mistake).

I counter with another Thought Experiment:

Fact: Exposure to Shinigami power levels above a certain minimum causes dormant spiritual abilities to awaken.

Fact: Ichigo himself had dormant Shinigami abilities.

Fact: Ichigo himself was above the minimum level to activate dormant spiritual abilities.

Conclusion: Being injected with Shinigami abilities 'might possibly' awake dormant Shinigami abilities.

My thought experiment contradicts your second conclusion.

 

[Takerial]

That Zanpakuto lingered on because Tousen replaced it as its owner so to speak. In all likelyhood, Tousen's own Zanpakuto merely formed into a form similar to the dead love's one. It was stated many times that a Zanpakuto is an inner manifestion of the Shinigami's soul. Granted he could have also bonded with the Zanpakuto and submitted it to his soul and forced it to become his inner manifestion. Either way, Tosuen became the owner of that Zanpakuto, it became his. That's why it is still around if it is the same Zanpakuto. It also had no other place to return to.

And the likelyhood is that Tousen grabbed the blade of the Zanpakuto, and not the Zanpakuto itself and filled it with his own. The blade is seperate from the Zanpakuto afterall.

Ichigo was not the owner of Sode and never will be. When it left to return to Rukia it would not have remained around him in any form.

The fact that it was REMOVED from him means that not even the Zanpakuto could remain as it is linked to that power.

 

[the DragonBard]

It's unfortunate that we're looking for proof, not interpretation.

The beginning of Takerials post had proof, that Zangetsu called the sword hilt 'Me'.

Which I can counter with equivalent proof for the opposite side (if it had been Zangetsu, Zangetsu would have been destroyed). And I can debunk your point anyway. Since Zangetsu represents Ichigo's spiritual power, and Ichigo's spiritual power was in Sode, that means Zangetsu would refer to the blade as 'me.'

No, because Zangetsu as an entity represents Ichigo's Shinigami powers specifically. If he isn't using his own Shinigami powers, Zangetsu should, by default, not be involved.

Your second comment seems to contradict your first. Or it might just be the way I'm reading it.

If Zangetsu has no sealed state, then when Ichigo was regaining his shinigami powers, it should have been the hilt of Zangetsu's Shikai that showed up. It wasn't. It showed the hilt of the sword that Ichigo was using since the beginning. Zangetsu specifically says that hilt is himself, and by your own admission Zangetsu is specifically the manifestation of Ichigo's shinigami powers. Thus, the hilt was of Zangetsu's sealed state.

If it wasn't before, when Ichigo had Rukia's powers within him, then it became so, the instant Ichigo awoke his own dormant shinigami powers.

 

[goldenwolfeye]

I think that Zangetsu had to have been dormant before the pit. Based on this

Says that Rukia's power awoke Ichigo's power. There are two ways that this can be interpreted.

1) Ichigo's powers were awoken as in made active and from then on the sword that Ichigo was using was Zangetsu, or at least affected by zangetsu.

2) The moment that she gives Ichigo her powers is when he starts gaining the potential to become a shinigami. That is to say that had she never given him her powers he would never have manifested powers on his own. Zangetsu didnt exist before Rukia and was dormant until the Pit. Thus the sword, and powers, that Ichigo used were Rukia's, modified by Ichigo's spiritual power ( I make this distinction because there is a difference between spirtual power and shinigami power. Shinigami power is a type of spiritual power)

Number one however is contradicted by this statement made by Zangetsu

"for you to find the "hidden Power of the shinigami"

If Ichigo's powers were active from the beginning why would he refer to them as hidden?

Also if they were active before then why does Ichigo not continue to be a shinigami even after Byakuya's attack. He only attacked Rukia's portion. Any other active shinigami powers Ichigo had should have continued to remain active. The fact that he does lose his power means that he couldn't have been using anything but Rukia's power.

If it wasn't before, when Ichigo had Rukia's powers within him, then it became so, the instant Ichigo awoke his own dormant shinigami powers.

if Zangetsu has no sealed state, then when Ichigo was regaining his shinigami powers, it should have been the hilt of Zangetsu's Shikai that showed up. It wasn't. It showed the hilt of the sword that Ichigo was using since the beginning. Zangetsu specifically says that hilt is himself, and by your own admission Zangetsu is specifically the manifestation of Ichigo's shinigami powers. Thus, the hilt was of Zangetsu's sealed state.

The same arguments that allow Tousen to use his masters zanpakuto can be applied here.

In all likelyhood, Tousen's own Zanpakuto merely formed into a form similar to the dead love's one. It was stated many times that a Zanpakuto is an inner manifestion of the Shinigami's soul.

In all likelihood the fact that Ichigo had Sode's unsealed blade as his Zanpakuto for so long mean that it left a mark on his soul. A mark which manifests itself in the *similar* (read exact same) look of the unsealed blades.

 

[Latewave]

Goldeneye gets 5 bonus points for being Civil.

 

[~NGD OMEGA~]

2) The moment that she gives Ichigo her powers is when he starts gaining the potential to become a shinigami.? That is to say that had she never given him her powers he would never have manifested powers on his own.? Zangetsu didnt exist before Rukia and was dormant until the Pit. Thus the sword, and powers, that Ichigo used were Rukia's, modified by Ichigo's spiritual power ( I make this distinction because there is a difference between spirtual power and shinigami power. Shinigami power is a type of spiritual power)

Actually, this one is unlikely if we take into account the Ichigo side chapter, which had him undergoing something similar to Hitsugaya's side chapter more people are familiar with. The implication appears to be that Ichigo could see a 'blade' revolving prior to ever meeting Rukia, in the same sense that Hitsugaya saw an icy field (Even the way it's written practically mirrors it). Granted this is more implications than anything, and I suppose there's another way to interpret it, but there's at least a case to be made from it. Though in turn as that was made long after the chapters in question things may have changed over time, as this particular aspect was never actually addressed nor alluded to in the story. :huh.:

 

[goldenwolfeye]

2) The moment that she gives Ichigo her powers is when he starts gaining the potential to become a shinigami.á That is to say that had she never given him her powers he would never have manifested powers on his own.á Zangetsu didnt exist before Rukia and was dormant until the Pit. Thus the sword, and powers, that Ichigo used were Rukia's, modified by Ichigo's spiritual power ( I make this distinction because there is a difference between spirtual power and shinigami power. Shinigami power is a type of spiritual power)

Actually, this one is unlikely if we take into account the Ichigo side chapter, which had him undergoing something similar to Hitsugaya's side chapter more people are familiar with. The implication appears to be that Ichigo could see a 'blade' revolving prior to ever meeting Rukia, in the same sense that Hitsugaya saw an icy field (Even the way it's written practically mirrors it). Granted this is more implications than anything, and I suppose there's another way to interpret it, but there's at least a case to be made from it. Though in turn as that was made long after the chapters in question things may have changed over time, as this particular aspect was never actually addressed nor alluded to in the story. :huh.:

:hmm:

...SHH

 

[fenixzero]

That doesn't look good. You have done this before as well, and it wasn't in good taste then either.

Yes. It was your fault then as well. I provided the sauce, you ignored it and/or weren't convinced regardless, argument fades, argument starts up later, I make the same claims, you demand the exact same sauce again, and when I tell you I already gave it to you, you tell me you've forgotten. I then refuse to re-sauce out of principle, because you damn well should have paid attention the firs time, at which get called names, insulted, and accused of lying. Waste, rinse, and repete as-necessary.

At this point, I don't really give a damn if you're lying or if you really are that forgetful. If you've forgotten everything from last time, don't start it up for another fucking go. The only reason I'm not ignoring you this time like I ought to have done the last two times this happened is because, being it's own seperate thread, this is a chance to finally end it, as it lets me shut <s>you</s> people up with a simple link should this all come up again (and I fucking know it will, as you haven't dropped it yet).

First off, I actually do forget many things, and what you discussed and sauced last time was one of many such things.

Secondly, by the sound of many of your recent posts, you have everything that you posted before saved, so it shouldn't be to hard to post it again. Or you could link me to the posts in the manga discussion thread.

Lastly, I bring to the table Chapter -15, specifically this page:

Hitsugaya saw and 'heard' (partly at least) Hyrinmaru before he become a Shinigami.

And Matsumoto says here that once a person can properly hear that voice and control it, they become a Shinigami. This is pretty much what happened to Ichigo. Zangetsu was calling out to Ichigo, for at least three days at that point, possibly more, without being heard properly. Once Ichigo found Zangetsu, again or for the first time, he returned to being a Shinigami.

That chapter (-15) shows that a person with high level of spiritual power can have a Zanpakutou spirit inside of them, waiting to be called out. Also consider that both Ichigo and Hitsugaya where shown releasing spiritual power while not being Shinigami, then they both become Shinigami.

 

[trevelyan1983]

Why do people interchange Shinigami (job) and Shinigami (race)?

Surely it's more accurate to say Shinigami (race) and Gotei Thirteen Division member (Job)?

 

[fenixzero]

Why do people interchange Shinigami (job) and Shinigami (race)?

Surely it's more accurate to say Shinigami (race) and Gotei Thirteen Division member (Job)?

Because Shinigami have a different spiritual 'signature' then everyone else? sauce

 

[trevelyan1983]

Which Ichigo only displays after he becomes Shinigami (Race), not Shinigami (Job). Not helping your case.

 

[the DragonBard]

I think that Zangetsu had to have been dormant before the pit.? Based on this

Says that Rukia's power awoke Ichigo's power.? There are two ways that this can be interpreted.

1) Ichigo's powers were awoken as in made active and from then on the sword that Ichigo was using was Zangetsu, or at least affected by zangetsu.

2) The moment that she gives Ichigo her powers is when he starts gaining the potential to become a shinigami.? That is to say that had she never given him her powers he would never have manifested powers on his own.? Zangetsu didnt exist before Rukia and was dormant until the Pit. Thus the sword, and powers, that Ichigo used were Rukia's, modified by Ichigo's spiritual power ( I make this distinction because there is a difference between spirtual power and shinigami power. Shinigami power is a type of spiritual power)

Number one however is contradicted by this statement made by Zangetsu

"for you to find the "hidden Power of the shinigami"

If Ichigo's powers were active from the beginning why would he refer to them as hidden?

Also if they were active before then why does Ichigo not continue to be a shinigami even after Byakuya's attack.? He only attacked Rukia's portion.? Any other active shinigami powers Ichigo had should have continued to remain active.? The fact that he does lose his power means that he couldn't have been using anything but Rukia's power.

If it wasn't before, when Ichigo had Rukia's powers within him, then it became so, the instant Ichigo awoke his own dormant shinigami powers.

Because Ichigo's powers hid after Byakuya's attack, as was explained in at least one translation by Urahara, and by Zangetsu.

if Zangetsu has no sealed state, then when Ichigo was regaining his shinigami powers, it should have been the hilt of Zangetsu's Shikai that showed up. It wasn't. It showed the hilt of the sword that Ichigo was using since the beginning. Zangetsu specifically says that hilt is himself, and by your own admission Zangetsu is specifically the manifestation of Ichigo's shinigami powers. Thus, the hilt was of Zangetsu's sealed state.

The same arguments that allow Tousen to use his masters zanpakuto can be applied here.

In all likelyhood, Tousen's own Zanpakuto merely formed into a form similar to the dead love's one. It was stated many times that a Zanpakuto is an inner manifestion of the Shinigami's soul.

In all likelihood the fact that Ichigo had Sode's unsealed blade as his Zanpakuto for so long mean that it left a mark on his soul. A mark which manifests itself in the *similar* (read exact same) look of the unsealed blades.

It wasn't his master, but his close friend's zanpakto.

Also, if Ichigo was using Sode as his zanpakto, it was its sealed form, not unsealed. Unsealed would be its Shikai.

Ignoring all that, it would imply that, at least from the time Ichigo regained his powers, the sword he was using was Zangetsu in an unreleased form, aka a sealed state.

 

[~NGD OMEGA~]

Because Ichigo's powers hid after Byakuya's attack, as was explained in at least one translation by Urahara.

Actually that particular line was given by Zangetsu in said translations (Though granted I didn't check Urahara's prior to that so who knows), who has a tad more authority to know that. Not sure about the validity of them either, as the most trustworthy source says something similar abet different enough that it can't be claimed to be the same thing. :mellow:

 

[fenixzero]

Which Ichigo only displays after he becomes Shinigami (Race), not Shinigami (Job). Not helping your case.

Maybe because when you are of that 'Race' that is the only 'Job' you can have.

So they, in effect, become interchangeable.

Because as we all know, Shinigami 'never' quit. . .

 

[Takerial]

The thing about Tousen's zanpakuto is that unless you know what type of powers the girl had, you can't actually say the spirit transfered. In all likelyhood they are referring to the blade itself in this scenario. Even if the spirit was what was transfered over though, it still became Tousen's inner side. It is still HIS zanpakuto. Even if they were the exact same power, the exact same look they are still differentiated because they would have seperate reiatsu which would mean they would be fueled differently.

Ichigo's case is different. An analogy to help explain the differences.

Say you have a friend looking through a magnifying glass. In Tousen's case, at most he would be merely trading places with his friends while still holding the magnifying glass. But his eyes would be his owns as well as his perception.

In Ichigo's case, it is more like Rukia is actually giving him part of her perception for him to focus his eyes through. They are still technically his eyes, but he can now also register Rukia's perception.

They're similar in a way, but are completely different scenarios to be comparing based on the zanpakuto.

 

[Canis]

Also, I can debunk the idea with a simple thought experiment.

Fact: Rukia did not know Ichigo had latent Shinigami powers.

Fact: Rukia tried to transfer a portion of her powers to Ichigo ignorant of the fact that he possessed latent Shinigami powers of his own, but with the intent of making Ichigo a temporary Shinigami.

Conclusion 1: The process can make anyone an 'effective' Shinigami.

Conclusion 2: In accordance with Conclusion 1, the process is self-contained. It doesn't 'wake up' latent powers, it gives an already existing power to someone else (in a percentile, according to Rukia). If functions independent of any latent spiritual talents.

Final Conclusion: Zangetsu was not technically involved with the blade at all, as the process was self-contained. It would have worked the same way on any human (though the size of the Zanpakuto would obviously change from person to person) regardless of whether or not they had latent Shinigami powers. This means that having latent Shinigami powers would not logically have any effect on the process, nor would the process wake those powers up, because the process works on normal humans, and not everybody has latent Shinigami powers.

Rukia didn't know he had latent powers, but still expected him to spontaneously transform into a Shinigami. That is my evidence that Zangetsu wasn't involved in the process. Because she didn't know about Zangetsu's existence, still expected the transfer to work, and the transfer did work (more or less) exactly like she intended. The only thing that happened differently is that she gave more of her power than she intended, but we know why that happened, and it had nothing to do with Zangetsu's existence (Ichigo's own spiritual energy was so large it messed with her powers, which caused her to make a mistake).

I counter with another Thought Experiment:

Fact: Exposure to Shinigami power levels above a certain minimum causes dormant spiritual abilities to awaken.

Fact: Ichigo himself had dormant Shinigami abilities.

Fact: Ichigo himself was above the minimum level to activate dormant spiritual abilities.

Conclusion: Being injected with Shinigami abilities 'might possibly' awake dormant Shinigami abilities.

My thought experiment contradicts your second conclusion.

There are also facts that both of you overlooked:

Fact: Rukia only intended to give Ichigo half of her powers.

Fact: Ichigo ended up with all of her powers

Fact: It was later revealed that Ichigo had his own Shinigami powers, sleeping though they were.

Plausible, but not necessarily correct Conclusion: Ichigo possessing dormant powers sucked up Rukia's powers and used them as a kick-start for his own.

Truly, there are no definitive conclusions about this matter to be drawn from the facts we have available. There are plenty of plausible conclusions of course, but barring Kubo Tite showing up and stating definitively that it happened this way or that way, the only thing we can do is take the facts that we are given and ask "Is this conclusion plausible?" If it is I say it's good enough for fanfiction. I may not agree with a particular interpretation of the facts, but I will admit it is plausible. Trying to argue an absolute on something like this is completely nuts.

I may believe that Zangetsu has been a part of Ichigo since the day he was born and was already around before he ever met Rukia. That's my own opinion formed from my interpretation of the facts we see in the manga and anime. Is it true? Maybe, maybe not. There's no evidence directly contradicting it. But then again there's no evidence directly supporting it either.

Likewise, it may be possible that Zangetsu didn't exist until the Shattered Shaft training. It's not my opinion that this is so, but I can certainly see how somebody could take the same facts I used to form my opinion and interpret them in such a way as to come to that conclusion.

And to get into the minutiae. I can easily see how somebody would interpret the evidence and come to the conclusion that the sword Ichigo was wielding up to his first defeat at Byakuya's hands was Sode no Shirayuki warped beyond belief by Ichigo's massive reserves and non-existent control.

I can also see how somebody would look at the evidence and say that it was actually Zangetsu with elements of Sode added because of Rukia's "donation" of power. In truth I think there was an interview with Tite where Tite actually said that Ichigo has been wielding Zangetsu from the get-go and that his having Sode's hand guard was simply a nod to the fact that Rukia had given Ichigo her Shinigami powers. I will not cite it as evidence for I don't even remember what magazine it was in, much less the actual wording of the quote so I cannot state anything from it with any reliability.

Basically what I'm saying is that arguing "My point is right, your's is wrong" is taking all the fun out of the debate. To me, debating points of an anime like this is fun because no one side is absolutely right, and seeing how different people reached different, or even the same conclusions with the same set of facts is pretty fascinating.

Lord Raine's posts and the reactions (though in some cases entirely justified) have sucked the fun out of the thread. So please bring the civility back and remember that no matter what facts we have, nobody is absolutely right in their conclusions.

 

[the DragonBard]

Too bad you don't remember what magazine and issue it was. If you are remembering it correctly, and we could confirm it, this argument would be over.

 

[Dikkfor]

nobody is absolutely right in their conclusions.

I think that this is the bit most people will have problems with.

 

[Canis]

nobody is absolutely right in their conclusions.

I think that this is the bit most people will have problems with.

Yeah I know, still if we can get people to stop poking Lord Raine...

 

[zeebee1]

The chance of someone being completely right about a specific thing is so unlikely the possiblity shouldn't even be considered.

 

[Canis]

The chance of someone being completely right about a specific thing is so unlikely the possiblity shouldn't even be considered.

Doesn't stop people from acting like anyone that disagrees with their opinion is completely wrong though.

 

[zeebee1]

Don't worry. You can trust anything I say because I'm always right.

 

[Avider]

That's a damn lie.

 

[goldenwolfeye]

*Between you and LR*


Lastly, I bring to the table Chapter -15, specifically this page:

Hitsugaya saw and 'heard' (partly at least) Hyrinmaru before he become a Shinigami.

And Matsumoto says here that once a person can properly hear that voice and control it, they become a Shinigami. This is pretty much what happened to Ichigo. Zangetsu was calling out to Ichigo, for at least three days at that point, possibly more, without being heard properly. Once Ichigo found Zangetsu, again or for the first time, he returned to being a Shinigami.

That chapter (-15) shows that a person with high level of spiritual power can have a Zanpakutou spirit inside of them, waiting to be called out. Also consider that both Ichigo and Hitsugaya where shown releasing spiritual power while not being Shinigami, then they both become Shinigami.

The difference between Ichigo and Hitsugaya is that at the point when Hitsu meets his zanpakuto he is already a spirit. That Ichigo couldn't manifest his powers without his soul being knocked out of his body means that being human constrains his shinigami powers.

I would make the bet that had Ichigo lived and died normally he would have gotten the dreams of Zangetsu while he was a in Rukongai.

While Ichigo's power does not awaken until the moment he pulls the sword from the pit Zangetsu probably began trying to talk to Ichigo the moment he began training with Urahara as a spirit.

Because Ichigo's powers hid after Byakuya's attack, as was explained in at least one translation by Urahara, and by Zangetsu.

I simply can't logically believe this makes sense. So this means that Ichigo's powers were awake the entire time. So then when Byakuya attacks Ichigo's powers hide because...they are afraid of Byakuka? Only that means that if his power could do that then why couldn't Rukia's power, which we know had to have been there too?

So after Ichigo's power sticks itself in a box to hide the lid closes and now it can't get out?

:huh:

I can't see it.

The thing about Tousen's zanpakuto is that unless you know what type of powers the girl had, you can't actually say the spirit transfered. In all likelyhood they are referring to the blade itself in this scenario. Even if the spirit was what was transfered over though, it still became Tousen's inner side. It is still HIS zanpakuto. Even if they were the exact same power, the exact same look they are still differentiated because they would have seperate reiatsu which would mean they would be fueled differently.

Ichigo's case is different. An analogy to help explain the differences.

Say you have a friend looking through a magnifying glass. In Tousen's case, at most he would be merely trading places with his friends while still holding the magnifying glass. But his eyes would be his owns as well as his perception.

In Ichigo's case, it is more like Rukia is actually giving him part of her perception for him to focus his eyes through. They are still technically his eyes, but he can now also register Rukia's perception.

They're similar in a way, but are completely different scenarios to be comparing based on the zanpakuto.

If the spirit didn't transfer and Tousen just had her affect his soul so much that his sword looked the same even though it had a different power then it stand to reason that Rukia, who introduced Ichigo to the world of Shinigami and gave him her power, would have the same effect on his sealed state.

So it would be more like Rukia gave Ichigo her magnifying glass to use and then it got taken away. Once it was gone Ichigo produced his own magnifying glass which looked the same because it was the only one he had ever seen.

I may believe that Zangetsu has been a part of Ichigo since the day he was born and was already around before he ever met Rukia. That's my own opinion formed from my interpretation of the facts we see in the manga and anime. Is it true? Maybe, maybe not. There's no evidence directly contradicting it. But then again there's no evidence directly supporting it either.

See my idea in a nutshell is that the potential for Zangetsu was there from Ichigo's birth in the form of spiritual power. Then the potential manifests into his sleeping power during his stint as a Rukia-powered Shinigami. Then when he is no longer Rukia-powered he is forced to awaken his own power or go hollow.

 

[zeebee1]

Zangetsu knew that hiding was the only way to survive.