Nasuverse FSN Question Thread

[ttestagr]

Ok, to correct the Fragarach example:

If Fragarach goes Answerer on Ea, then Ea's attack plainly does not happen. There is no space-time ripping leftover, it would be as if Ea was never used. Only NPs like Gae Bolg would be immune to that effect, since the curse has already guaranteed the result.

Mechanism speculation ahead:

(Even with the reversed order, since Gae Bolg was already invoked, it will hit Bazette's heart. Rather, the effect of hitting the heart was already written into fate, so even when Bazette attacks first, her fate was still sealed. It's an interesting situation where Gae Bolg wasn't activated (and it was activated) but it still hit. Or maybe it's something like, because the fate of being hit was certain, the cause was forced back into play. Even though Fragarach might have erased the cause, Fragarach did not erase the effect. Usually, erasing the cause is enough to erase the effect, except for Gae Bolg, it is the effect that is absolute, the cause follows that. If you erase the cause, the effect will just necessitate another cause.)

Anyways, Fragarach as Answerer is A rank. If you BP it, I guess it might become something like A+ rank? That doesn't matter anyways, the point of Fragarach is the whole reversal of order thing.



As for Kotomine, mind that Masters announcing themselves to the supervisor does not mean revealing information about their Servant (other than maybe class). Likely, Bazette was too dangerous to keep alive? (Not in the fearing for his life kinda way but more like his plan.)

I mean, it's not like he knew Bazette has Fragarach (or maybe he does), and it's not like he would be particularly worried about Gilgamesh, but all the same Bazette is a competent magus and she's his equivalent in the MA. He was an executor, she's a sealing agent. Likely whatever plans he had would have been opposed by her, so she was an obstacle.

I sincerely doubt, however, that the main reason why he killed her was because she might have been able to defeat Gilgamesh.

Speculation with very little thought behind it. Fragarach reverses time so an attack does not happen. But that attack has to go off first, and Ea puts out a big old tear in both space and time to interfere with such. Time is reversed? So what when local space time isn't even there for quite a good stretch thanks to Enuma Elish.

 

[Avider]

I don't know if you haven't notice, but this isn't physics.

Perhaps you should rethink what you believe is speculation, because the point where my speculation begins is with Gae Bolg, mechanism for its attack, not the effect of Fragarach.

And in fact, it was right:

If Fragarach is a curse that switches the order of attack, Gae Bolg is a cursed spear that reverses causality. Even if Fragarach rewrites the fact that Gae Bolg was hurled first, it'll just wind back. The moment Gae Bolg's true name was released, Gae Bolg already held the result of hitting the heart. Even if time is returned to the point before activation and kills the user, it's meaningless. The spear having the result of piercing a heart will fulfill its role even if its master's died before he could initiate his attack.

Believing that the sundering of the world to reveal the primordial state as being resistant to the absolute order of time, now that, is speculation.

Fragarach vs Fragarach? Do they just shatter against each other?

The one that goes second (Answerer) wins.

Well unless the other guy does a third Fragarach (Answerer) as well. Who knows, maybe they both hit. If the second reverses order and the third reverses order, maybe they both get inserted as the same order and both attacks hit at the same time.

Then again, if the other guy can do Answerer, that would count as his trump, so the second guy can't counter the first Fragarach, which means you will never have a situation where Fragarach is versus Fragarach. Simply, since Fragarach (Answerer) is a counter, in response to some other move, Fragarach (Answerer) cannot initiate an attack by itself.

Well, I suppose you can construct a scenario where it could happen. Like say, suppose Herakles has Fragarach and can use it for some reason. Bazette activates Fragarach on Godhand, Herakles activates his Fragarach on Bazette's Fragarach...

"Who knows, maybe they both hit. If the second reverses order and the third reverses order, maybe they both get inserted as the same order and both attacks hit at the same time."

 

[nick012000]

Fragarach vs Fragarach? Do they just shatter against each other?

The one that goes second (Answerer) wins.

Well unless the other guy does a third Fragarach (Answerer) as well. Who knows, maybe they both hit. If the second reverses order and the third reverses order, maybe they both get inserted as the same order and both attacks hit at the same time.

Then again, if the other guy can do Answerer, that would count as his trump, so the second guy can't counter the first Fragarach, which means you will never have a situation where Fragarach is versus Fragarach. Simply, since Fragarach (Answerer) is a counter, in response to some other move, Fragarach (Answerer) cannot initiate an attack by itself.

Well, I suppose you can construct a scenario where it could happen. Like say, suppose Herakles has Fragarach and can use it for some reason. Bazette activates Fragarach on Godhand, Herakles activates his Fragarach on Bazette's Fragarach...

"Who knows, maybe they both hit. If the second reverses order and the third reverses order, maybe they both get inserted as the same order and both attacks hit at the same time."

Unlimited Blade Works is Archer's strongest attack. Bazette uses Fragarach in response. Archer uses Unlimited Blade Works to create a copy of it and fling it at her. Which one wins?

 

[ZeroForever]

didn't they mention that Fragarach requires a special blood enchantment to make which is why their limited in number and hard to make, which is why shiro wouldn't be able to copy its special ability.
Can't remember where i saw that info so don't quote me on it.

 

[Avider]

It's not particularly clear, but Fragarach should be limited to the Bazette's bloodline since the requirement for using it is an actual virus.

Tradition Carrier, ability to re-enact the miracles of old.

Anyways, yeah, Fragarach is created from Bazette's blood.

I believe the general consensus was that only someone from Bazette's bloodline can use Fragarach.

But, it really depends on how you view Shirou's tracing. If you believe that by tracing Fragarach, Shirou fulfills the requirement...somehow, then he can use it.

Be consistent and it should be fine...?

 

[Munch]

Man, autowin attacks are goddamn boring. Fragrach's description just sounds retarded. Ea is overpowered as fuck, but at least they made it sound cool.

 

[Cherry_lover]

Hm... my thinking was, "why did Kotomine take out Bazette?" If he's the overseer of the Grail War, then all the "intelligence gathering" he did with Lancer was basically superfluous since the Masters were supposed to announce to him that they were participating... and it occurred to me he was taking out a power that he knew could defeat his true Servant, and I wondered if that might have been a big reason to kill her.

For the hell of it. He has no interest in winning the war, per-se, and Gil wouldn't accept working with another master/servant pairing in any case.

It's not particularly clear, but Fragarach should be limited to the Bazette's bloodline since the requirement for using it is an actual virus.

Yeah, I have to say that I don't buy this, provided he traced the activated version (after she's put her blood on it). Yes, it requires her blood virus to make it work in the first place, but once she's activated it it works the same way as any other Noble Phantasm.

 

[trevelyan1983]

Do blood, bacteria and virii count as earthly materials? You decide.

 

[ttestagr]

Kirei took out Bazette for the lulz. Remember that her goal, her drive was to save Cu Chulainn. Kirei trained her so she would be successful, and then at her moment of triumph, took it all away to make the man she wanted to save his disposable toy.

 

[Avider]

Hm... my thinking was, "why did Kotomine take out Bazette?" If he's the overseer of the Grail War, then all the "intelligence gathering" he did with Lancer was basically superfluous since the Masters were supposed to announce to him that they were participating... and it occurred to me he was taking out a power that he knew could defeat his true Servant, and I wondered if that might have been a big reason to kill her.

For the hell of it. He has no interest in winning the war, per-se, and Gil wouldn't accept working with another master/servant pairing in any case.

It's not particularly clear, but Fragarach should be limited to the Bazette's bloodline since the requirement for using it is an actual virus.

Yeah, I have to say that I don't buy this, provided he traced the activated version (after she's put her blood on it). Yes, it requires her blood virus to make it work in the first place, but once she's activated it it works the same way as any other Noble Phantasm.

Nah.

The exception in the modern age being the Fraga heritage, in that their blood, ritual, and the blessings of their god allow them to use Fragarach as a Noble Phantasm (the Answerer effect). That's the meaning behind the blood-trait "Tradition Carriers"; having the ability to reenact the powers of old.

The unique trait also applies to their magic. That is, you need Godsholder to make Fragarach, not just the blood but also the ritual involved, but you also need Godsholder to use Fragarach (Answerer).

 

[Cherry_lover]

The unique trait also applies to their magic. That is, you need Godsholder to make Fragarach, not just the blood but also the ritual involved, but you also need Godsholder to use Fragarach (Answerer).

And you need to be Saber to use Excalibur, yet that doesn't stop Shirou. I don't see any reason why using Bazett's NP should be any different.

 

[Prince Charon]

The unique trait also applies to their magic.? That is, you need Godsholder to make Fragarach, not just the blood but also the ritual involved, but you also need Godsholder to use Fragarach (Answerer).

And you need to be Saber to use Excalibur, yet that doesn't stop Shirou. I don't see any reason why using Bazett's NP should be any different.

Shirou is pretty broken, but he's not the only one in Nasuverse who is.

 

[ZeroForever]

shiro can't use excalibur's full power (archer can't either, it would kill him via burn out as the mana required exceeds his capacity)

caliburns - pretty sure they explicitly stated that sabers presence/touch was what enabled the gib berserker effect, shiro can only get the lesser effect.

shiro's broken but i seriously all the fan fic's give him super prana amounts that outstrip rin powered archer (or rin powered shiro) and spamming abilities many of which shouldn't be usable by him due to the prana requirements.

 

[Cherry_lover]

shiro can't use excalibur's full power (archer can't either, it would kill him via burn out as the mana required exceeds his capacity)

That's beside the point, because the limitation is solely Shirou's prana supply, and Fragarach won't have that limitation.

 

[Crusader]

If Saber can reach Mach speed, wouldn't the sonic booms she'd create cause severe collateral damage, making her a hazard. And wouldn't she and her summoner spend too much prana to prevent the air friction from producing too much heat?

 

[Avider]

Magic?

And you need to be Saber to use Excalibur, yet that doesn't stop Shirou. I don't see any reason why using Bazett's NP should be any different.

In the current age anyways. Back when Excalibur was still around, it's not like Excalibur had a lock. It was just a weapon. This point is especially clear with Gilgamesh, his NPs spread and other people used them.

The issue here is mechanism. Given, however, the specific nature of Godsholder, Fragarach would have something like a lock with the key being the virus. If Shirou, when he projects, manages to somehow replicate the effect of Godsholder, then sure. That's what not clear here.

 

[ttestagr]

That is wrong. Both Excalibur and Avalon required Arturia as described in Fate/Zero.

 

[shioran toushin]

unless you are shiro (i suppose only in excalibur's case) and then again is a suicide gambit

 

[Deathwings]

Excalibur and Avalon are bad example when it come to Noble Phantasm cross-use because both of those were created by fairies specifically for Arturia alone.

Note that Gil has Caliburn's prototype in the Gate of Babylon, NOT Excalibur and neither Avalon.

Also, the question shouldn't be "Can Shirou use Traced Fragarach ?" because if he can Trace it, then he can use it. Anything Shirou Trace, he can use. But he do need to be able to Trace it to begin with, so THAT would be the question.

 

[Avider]

Gem Sword Zelretch.

That is wrong. Both Excalibur and Avalon required Arturia as described in Fate/Zero.

Actually no I won't.

I did a quick search through Fate/Zero. I do not see where this is. In other words, I'm gonna need a source. Volume/page number, that sort of thing.

 

[Seed00]

Is Rin really grabby while sleeping? Saw it in GB's fic when he wrote it, but also saw it in this other dude's fic with Magical girl Shirou. Can't be coincidence.

 

[ttestagr]

Gem Sword Zelretch.

That is wrong. Both Excalibur and Avalon required Arturia as described in Fate/Zero.

Actually no I won't.

I did a quick search through Fate/Zero. I do not see where this is. In other words, I'm gonna need a source. Volume/page number, that sort of thing.

Kiritsugu and Irisviel went back to their own rooms, opened the long box entrusted to them by the head of family, and were mesmerized by its contents.

"Who would've thought, they were actually able to find this thing..."

The usually composed Kiritsugu right now seems deeply impressed.

A scabbard.

Made of gold and decorated with dazzling blue enamel; this sort of luxurious equipment should be called a treasure to show dignity and nobility like a crown or a scepter as opposed to a weapon. Engraved into the middle is an inscription of the long lost Fairy Letters, proving this scabbard is not a work of man.

"... Why isn't there the slightest flaw? Is this really the genuine relic made from an era over one thousand five hundred years ago?"

"This thing is a type of Conceptual Weapon. It definitely won't deteriorate physically, not mentioning that it's a holy relic that will be used as a catalyst. This treasure lies in the realm of magic."

Irisviel took out the golden scabbard from the box with an inside lining carefully, holding it in her hands.

"Legend says keeping this scabbard on one's body will heal the wounds of its possessor and can stop aging... of course, the mentioned facts are magical powers provided by its 'original owner.'"

"Meaning as long as the Heroic Spirit summoned is functional, this thing itself can be used as a 'Master's Noble Phantasm.'"

"It's actually thanks to you, Saber..."

Although Irisviel's body, from magecraft's perspective, is artificial, the art of self-healing when the practitioner is unconscious wasnÆt added in. What healed her was a miracle that had nothing to do with Einsbern's magecraft.

The Noble Phantasm Avalon ò All is a Distant Utopia û it heals all it's bearer's wounds, and even stops his aging. The sheath of the holy sword Excalibur. The artifact used back at the Einsbern's castle to summon Heroic Spirit Arturia was now sealed inside Irisviel as a conceptual weapon.

Normally, it should be a trump card that the Master, Kiritsugu, should equip. But then, serving as the front line substitute Master Irisviel's protection, he left this utmost defensive Noble Phantasm in the hands of his wife. Anyway, if its real owner Saber wasn't near supporting prana, the sheath wouldn't have any properties. To Kiritsugu, who decided from the start to act separately from Saber, it was a useless thing.

Kiritsugu, who didn't trust his own Servant, had carefully asked Irisviel not to tell Saber about the existence of the sheath for insurance. But Irisviel felt very uneasy in her heart about forcefully borrowing the Noble Phantasm of the King of Knights.

Even so, when its effects were confirmed, it was a truly astounding power. Before Saber arrived, Irisviel was undoubtedly in a critical state. Just by the touch of the hand of the king of knights, the wounds suddenly healed, and her strength rapidly recovered. It was nonetheless known as a miraculous Noble Phantasm.

Her Magic Circuit that Kirei broke by brute force should have malfunctions, but now it hadn't any problems. So now she should be able to smoothly use magecraft as always.

Note that this isn't something that was summoned along with Arturia. The Einzbern found it through archaelogy to use as a catalyst to summon her. That means that Avalon wasn't ever just a conceptual weapon, but in fact an EX rated Noble Phantasm that Arturia had when she was alive. All but flat out stated when taking all of the dialogue about it together. And as its a matched set with Excalibur, it would hold true for the sword as well. Though the actual dialogue is more vague on the sword:

Archer, standing on the high arch of the bridge and looking down upon all, couldnÆt help but have a smile emerging on his face when he saw this light of destruction that burnt and consumed all.

ôDo you see it, King of Conquerors? This is SaberÆs light.ö

Archer addressed the empty space beside him. Rider, who had just experienced a merciless fight, was letting the chariot pulled by divine bulls remain still in the air, and was gazing dazedly at the ultimate light Excalibur was emanating.

ôDo you still not want to acknowledge her after witnessing that ray of light?ö

Rider snorted, dismissing ArcherÆs question. However, what was on his face as not despite or mockery, but a solemnity as if he was looking out over a thing of tragic grandeur.

ôIt was indeed because she took upon her shoulders the hope of every man of the time that sheÆs able to display such might û itÆs painful precisely because it is so blindingly brilliant. Who could have thought that the person carrying such a heavy weight is only a little girl who liked to dream?ö

On the river surface, which the two of them looked down upon, SaberÆs slender body was huffing painfully due to the intensive battle to the death that had just ended. Rider only knew what kind of heaviness was piled upon her young and delicate shoulders thanks to last nightÆs quiz. For him, whose personality is open and straightforward, this kind of æway of livingÆ is absolutely unforgivable.

ôThis kind of little girl is truly the final result of someone who discarded youthful romance and dreams, discarded love, and sunk into the eternal curse of æidealsÆ. It is truly painful, and one canÆt bear to look upon it anymore.ö

 

[Avider]

...Are you seriously kidding me?

Do you really not understand the concept of Noble Phantasm?





Ok, breaking it down.

CW =/= necessarily = NP.
NP => Attribute gained from legend, crystallization of the mysteries of the past, something gained after the fact.

In the current age anyways.

Hopefully, with just those two facts and my quote, you can figure out for yourself why your interpretation isn't right.


I was hoping for texts that actually said what you're claiming it to say, not an extrapolation from what the texts actually said.

 

[ttestagr]

Oh? That appears to be quite condescending. I have the feeling you're going to come out with something outrageously wrong now.

 

[Avider]

Because you got my hopes up for nothing. I was looking for something that would actually give evidence to the lock and key model of Excalibur and Avalon, so to prove that Shirou can replicate that effect when he traces it. Essentially, Shirou can definitively use Fragarach, and pretty much any other weapons with specific requirements likable to that situation.


But instead what you gave me was a restatement of the meaning of Noble Phantasms, except you didn't realize that at all, and more to the point, what I already read, while I was thinking that I had missed something.

If it sounded condescending, it's because I expected more from you.