Nasuverse FSN Question Thread

[ttestagr]

Did you bother to read your argument after you obviously forgot it? Must not have.

This was your statement I was responding to:

In the current age anyways. Back when Excalibur was still around, it's not like Excalibur had a lock. It was just a weapon. This point is especially clear with Gilgamesh, his NPs spread and other people used them.

I said you were wrong, which you were. You asked me why. And rather than give just an utterly useless statement that they were always Noble Phantasms (not just a weapon like you stated), I give my reasoning why that is. And whats more, in the text Noble Phantasms that only Arthur can bring the power out of.

Your mistake is thinking I was commenting about something in relationship to Fragarach, instead of a short comment about how one of yours was incorrect.

 

[shioran toushin]

ah, well for me this seems conflicting because for me (correct me if im wrong) an NP is the crystalization of a concept?/miracle? and while is more commonly wielded by an eirei there are examples of NP's wielded by mortal magi, and a concept weapon is something that forces an idea/concept on something else.
for me a CW can become NP over time or if the CW is absolutely broken.
and of Avalon, What is the word of God on this subject?
because while it is the Noble Phantasm of Arturia it is not a copy of the legendary sheath like (this is a supposition) Gae Bolg is not the 'original' one, maybe is the cristalized miracle and what not, but what happened with the Gae Bolg that Cu Chulain wielded in life?

 

[Avider]

...Oh for fuck's sake, I understood what your argument was, it's you who don't mine.

And rather than give just an utterly useless statement that they were always Noble Phantasms

They weren't.

That's exactly my point, it's why I said this:

Do you really not understand the concept of Noble Phantasm?

CW =/= necessarily = NP.
NP => Attribute gained from legend, crystallization of the mysteries of the past, something gained after the fact.

And that is why I said this:

But instead what you gave me was a restatement of the meaning of Noble Phantasms, except you didn't realize that at all

The quotes you gave me was talking about their restrictions/link to Saber/uniqueness due to the fact that they are now Noble Phantasms.

You seriously need to go over exactly what NPs are again. Here's another hint, they are not just powerful weapons/tools.

for me a CW can become NP over time or if the CW is absolutely broken.

No exactly, there needs to be an additional requirement. CW can become NPs if they are used by a hero who is immortalized in legends.

A CW that is absolutely broken, by itself, with no hero (or legend I suppose) to attach it to, is just an absolutely broken, really powerful, artifact. It is not a Noble Phantasm.

 

[shioran toushin]

there was another debate over modern Eirei that pointed that a weapon could become IIRC an Eirei if it reached the status of legendary.
could a CW or any weapon become an NP without being linked to a particular hero? jus being inmortalized by their own history and not only for being wielded by someone who would become an Eirei or CG.

 

[ttestagr]

Ah, you are more incorrect than I thought. Especially since we're talking about Fragarach, which is a Noble Phantasm for a living family that does not have anything to do with the past other than that their family has a virus that is from the Age of the Gods.

From Fuyuki:

Noble Phantasms

??

Crystallized "mysteries". Armaments made using the imagination of humans as their cores and the weapons of Heroic Spirits.

Being legendary, Noble Phantasms are far greater than other weapons. In terms of status, a C ranked Noble Phantasm is the equivalent of an A or A+ ranked normal attack.

Swords, lances, bows are among the more common ones. There are also support-type Noble Phantasms like crowns and rings.

By channeling Prana into them and releasing their true names, the real power of the Noble Phantasm is unleashed. To that effect, only the true master of the Noble Phantasm can use it. Gae Bolg can't be used by anyone other than Cu Chulainn, etc.

Of course... not all Heroic Spirits have Noble Phantasms that fall under the above definition. EMIYA's Reality Marble is technically not a Noble Phantasm. Rider's many abilities are more or less abilities she carried on as a divine spirit. Berserker and Angra Mainyu's Noble Phantasms are curses that are treated like armor. However, as they are heroes, they are naturally going to have signature powers that operate as their symbols.

Most Noble Phantasms are based on an original. The general rule for Noble Phantasms according to Goldy is the "son can't defeat the father," because with each cycle of transmigration a weapon undergoes, it becomes weaker. The actual fact is that Shirou's projected Caliburn had less power against Gilgamesh's Gram (Merodach) than during the fight against Berserker.

One possible (AKA really, really, really improbable) interpretation is that Noble Phantasms are/were actual physical objects that gain power due to the association of a past legend or a currently "ongoing legend". Therefore, continued use of a particular weapon that becomes a symbol of somebody infamous (such as the Red Baron's plane or an even stupider example....Amuro's RX-78) will eventually turn that weapon into a "mystery" or what not, as long as it's recognized in some form by humanity. On the other end of this are weapons and armor that just use the concepts of human beliefs, instead of the physical object as well, and are then processed by the planet or the gods into "real" weapons.

Not your definition at all.

Excalibur and Avalon were forged by the planet from the wishes of mankind. Even that most basic description of them hints that they were always Noble Phantasms as they were essentially 'forged' directly from the imagination of humanity.

 

[Avider]

I added the legend bit at the end there.

From what I've gathered about that situation, while the weapon (the soul or consciousness within it) would be treated as a Heroic Spirit, the hero (user) would be summoned as well. If it's like the Fuyuki Holy Grail...the (hero) user would be like Saber's armor???

Or maybe not and it acts like Soul Edge and finds a host.

Wait, CW => NP by themselves. Um...if it's the same situation as the modern weapon, it might just be a Heroic Spirit.

Not your definition at all.

...Are you willfully not reading it?

Crystallized "mysteries". Armaments made using the imagination of humans as their cores and the weapons of Heroic Spirits.

Let's break it down:

"Crystallized 'mysteries'"

Wow, part one of what I used.

Armaments made using the imagination of humans as their cores and the weapons of Heroic Spirits.

Oh my, this might lend credence to your idea...except, wait, what's this annoying little thing called context?!

And what's this annoying little part right here:

imagination of humans as their cores and the weapons of Heroic Spirits.

Since you brought up the origin of Excalibur, I'll go over the first part in context.

NPs are made using the imagination of humans as their cores, so this means that since Excalibur was created from the wishes of mankind, it must have been an NP at creation, correct?

Wrong.

First off, the imagination of mankind bit of the NP is detailing how regular weapons are attributed NP status. Legends and myths and stories exists within the imagination of the people, from this are the weapons ascended.

It is the ascension process, the exaltation similar to how a hero becomes a Heroic Spirit. It is not about the weapon's creation, it is about the NP promotion.

But I don't suppose you'll accept that, so let me give you an example.

Suppose there is a village (or the world if a village isn't large enough) that wishes for a fan that can bring rain. Suppose the planet decides to make such a fan.

You would immediately subscribe to the belief that the fan would be a NP, wouldn't you?

But now, suppose that the fan is never used, is never known, and in fact not a single story is created about it, there is no legend, it can't even be forgotten since it was never in memory.

How then, can such a fan be a NP? Merely because its creation process involved the integration of an aspect that mankind wished for?

So what?

Suppose that in the ancient past, there was a a monster that ravaged the land. The people, in their desperation, cried out for a weapon powerful enough to defeat this monster. The gods complied, and together they crafted a beautiful bow, and traveling to the deepest depth of the world, forged seven arrows that could pierce even the sun.

Having so created this weapon, the gods casted it down to the world, and chose one person to be the hero who would slay this monster.

Except a trickster stole away this bow and scattered the arrows. The hero, having no bow and no arrows, fiercely fought the monster with the first weapon he could find, a simple branch fallen from a dying tree. In the ensuing battle, lasting over seven years, through rain and sun and wind and snow, wherein the ground shook whenever the hero and the monster clashed, wherein the earth cracked and quake, spewing flames from the bowels of the world, the hero finally emerged victorious but fatally injured.

With the last of his life, the hero hurled the monster into a bottomless chasm, and with the branch, pulled and sealed together the earth. Having finished his task, the hero died where he stood. The branch, welded in the ground, took roots and grew around the hero, marking the grave of the fallen hero.

The people, saddened, joyous, grateful, paid pilgrimage to the hero beneath the tree throughout the ages, singing praises in his name and retelling his tales forever end.

The hero became a Heroic Spirit.
The branch became a Noble Phantasm.

The bow and arrows, were and are not.


The fact that the planet forged it from the wishes of mankind also doesn't make it a Noble Phantasm.

In fact, I noticed that you neglected a certain part here:

People tend to like making powerful Noble Phantasms that don't have anything to do with any legends, mythical weapons, or heroes, but the point of a "Noble Phantasm" as opposed to an ancient artifact is the fact that it has a true name that is used by the original hero to allow for the recreation of its true power. An artifact without any legend or "hero" (in other words, no "true name" or no one able to release the "true name") would just be the equivalent of a powerful artifact, a Conceptual Weapon, or a powerful and old Mystic Code.

Without Arturia, Excalibur would be nothing more than an extremely powerful Mystic Code, and Avalon nothing more than an absolute Conceptual Weapon.

If you think Excalibur and Avalon were NP from the moment of creation, then you are saying that they were NPs before Arturia even gained them. But it was because Arturia used Excalibur, because of her feats and her strength and her legends, because she was remembered, that Excalibur came to be connected to Arturia, that Excalibur came to be linked to Saber, it is because Arturia used them that Saber is the owner of Excalibur and Avalon, that they became NPs.

The especially funny part here, is suppose that Excalibur and Avalon were NPs before Arturia, then that runs counter to what you claim, that Excalibur and Avalon required Arturia, because their existence as NPs would be independent of Arturia! There are no such requirement that Arturia be the owner, and indeed, if you believe that Excalibur and Avalon were NPs aside from Arturia, there could not have been!

(This is why I especially got pissed when you used those sections from Zero, because it was made exceedingly clear that the restrictions, owner and all that jazz, was the result of Excalibur and Avalon being connected to Saber via the legend of King Arthur. Saying that they were NPs when they were created and saying that they required Arturia was so infuriatingly contradictory by the very meaning of Noble Phantasm that I did not and still cannot see how you would come to that conclusion.)

Now, that's only the first part, the part where you mistook the ideology of creation to be the main aspect of Noble Phantasms.

The second part is section you omitted, Noble Phantasms requires a legend or a hero, that's the essence of a Noble Phantasm. If the weapon doesn't have a true name, or if it does have a true name but it has no one who can use its true name, it is not a Noble Phantasm!

Just like how a hero who is not remembered cannot be a Heroic Spirit, weapons that have no legends cannot be Noble Phantasms. Excalibur and Avalon, at the time of their creation, had no hero, and further, they had no legends. They could not have been Noble Phantasms.

 

[shioran toushin]

basically for anything to reach NP status they have to be vinculed to a legend.
but what happened with the Gae Bolg that Cu Chulain wielded in life? because Avalon is the original artifact, but Excalibur came with Arturia.

 

[Avider]

Lost? Destroyed? You'll have to follow Irish legends to see where it ended up, or not see I guess.

It's not like there can't exist two instances of the same thing at a time, especially since the Grail provided ones aren't real, if somewhat very close to real.


Thinking about it, isn't the Grail really that hax? I mean, Shirou can make NPs too, but his are ranked down and they break easily.

The Grail provides Heroes and NPs that lasts! Well, the Heroes are powered down, but the NPs seemingly don't suffer that...

Well, there's the drawback in the prodigious amount of prana needed, and it is a degraded Magic, so...yeah.

 

[ttestagr]

Wow, superlong text of wrong. From the first bit trying to absolutely declare NP must be a Servant's weapon (utterly proved wrong by Fragarach's existence, you know the thing that started this argument) to completely random bullshit examples, to just ignoring that the main requirement for a Noble Phantasm is an artifact that's true power is recreated upon speaking its name (though that isn't a hard rule either considering God Hand.)

Based on your current arguments, if I am wrong you just don't have the knowledge, reading comprehension, or just intelligence to prove me so. I don't expect much from TFF these days, but I suggest that you go find someone with a better idea to try to figure out an argument. It shouldn't be hard to find someone.

 

[shioran toushin]

well the original is the shell of the cristalyzation and the ones the grail provides are the cristalyzation itself? maybe

 

[Deathwings]

The whole argument would be a lot less ridiculous if the two of you would stop using the exceptions to the rules as examples to try to prove the rules.

EVERYTHING about Arturia, Excalibur and Avalon are irregular compared to the other Servants and their NP. From the fact that Arturia actually never died and is actually using her ACTUAL BODY to the method of creation of her weapons.

 

[ttestagr]

The whole argument would be a lot less ridiculous if the two of you would stop using the exceptions to the rules as examples to try to prove the rules.

EVERYTHING about Arturia, Excalibur and Avalon are irregular compared to the other Servants and their NP. From the fact that Arturia actually never died and is actually using her ACTUAL BODY to the method of creation of her weapons.

That leaves the question of how do you argue about such an irregular character without bringing up other irregularities. After all, for all that she's a great hero, Arturia as of the Grail War isn't technically a heroic spirit or counter guardian yet.

 

[nick012000]

Wow, superlong text of wrong. From the first bit trying to absolutely declare NP must be a Servant's weapon (utterly proved wrong by Fragarach's existence, you know the thing that started this argument) to completely random bullshit examples, to just ignoring that the main requirement for a Noble Phantasm is an artifact that's true power is recreated upon speaking its name (though that isn't a hard rule either considering God Hand.)

Based on your current arguments, if I am wrong you just don't have the knowledge, reading comprehension, or just intelligence to prove me so. I don't expect much from TFF these days, but I suggest that you go find someone with a better idea to try to figure out an argument. It shouldn't be hard to find someone.

Actually, I think Fragarach was wielded by an ancient Irish hero, so it became a Noble Phantasm back then, and it simply got passed down through Bazette's family line until the present day. It's basically the equivalent of some great hero giving his sword to his son, and the son gives it to his son, and that son gives it to his son, et cetera. It's a Noble Phantasm, being wielded by a non-Heroic Spirit person.

 

[ttestagr]

Wow, superlong text of wrong.? From the first bit trying to absolutely declare NP must be a Servant's weapon (utterly proved wrong by Fragarach's existence, you know the thing that started this argument) to completely random bullshit examples, to just ignoring that the main requirement for a Noble Phantasm is an artifact that's true power is recreated upon speaking its name (though that isn't a hard rule either considering God Hand.)

Based on your current arguments, if I am wrong you just don't have the knowledge, reading comprehension, or just intelligence to prove me so.? I don't expect much from TFF these days, but I suggest that you go find someone with a better idea to try to figure out an argument.? It shouldn't be hard to find someone.

Actually, I think Fragarach was wielded by an ancient Irish hero, so it became a Noble Phantasm back then, and it simply got passed down through Bazette's family line until the present day. It's basically the equivalent of some great hero giving his sword to his son, and the son gives it to his son, and that son gives it to his son, et cetera. It's a Noble Phantasm, being wielded by a non-Heroic Spirit person.

It's a good bit of speculation, but there is absolutely no word on any use of Fragarach by any hero.

Fragarach - The Sword of the Gorging War God.
Full name - Answerer Fragarach - That Which Comes Later Cuts First, the Sword of the Gorging War God.

Sword of Retrograde. The ultimate counter-attack weapon. A conceptual curse that warps destiny. A divine trick that uses time as a weapon. Really the equivalent of a bolt of light when used but the extra effect that it makes is what makes it useful. Warps causality to always strike the opponent right before he unleashes his ultimate attack; even if the attack of the enemy is made first, the fact that it happens is rewritten so that Fragarach hits it before. What Fragarach gorges out isn't the heart of the enemy, but the destiny of both user and enemy simultaneously killing each other. The attack of the enemy that's released is wiped out as it's returned into an attack that "couldn't happen," the law of the world, the absolute system of time. After all, no matter how powerful or fast the attack is, it won't do anything because the enemy that is defeated first won't have a chance to attack.

One of the few remaining Noble Phantasms maintained by the Fraga bloodline. Made by pouring Bazett's blood on a ball of metal, conducting a ritual, and leaving it in the basement for one month. Around ten can be made per year using this method. Doesn't really sound fair at all.

When in use, the metal ball floats around Bazett. Activation is initiated in response to the trump card where it then generates a blade followed by Bazett punching it. A container is used to hold a fair number of balls.

It would still be an exception if it was once wielded by a hero, since its more of a skill thanks to the fact that they have to be constructed and can only be used once. Or that there are more than one of them. Another basis for being a Noble Phantasm is that it has to be the best of that type. No other has had multiple copies.

Fragarach is just strange.

 

[nairit]

Um... Bazett creates 10 Fragarach per year. It is a weapon that is carried through blood instead of techniques all because a Sorcery Trait inherent in Bazett. So, it is the singular exception in that it has not attached itself to any Heroic Spirit.

 

[Avider]

Wow, superlong text of wrong.á From the first bit trying to absolutely declare NP must be a Servant's weapon (utterly proved wrong by Fragarach's existence, you know the thing that started this argument) to completely random bullshit examples, to just ignoring that the main requirement for a Noble Phantasm is an artifact that's true power is recreated upon speaking its name (though that isn't a hard rule either considering God Hand.)

Based on your current arguments, if I am wrong you just don't have the knowledge, reading comprehension, or just intelligence to prove me so.á I don't expect much from TFF these days, but I suggest that you go find someone with a better idea to try to figure out an argument.á It shouldn't be hard to find someone.

...

á From the first bit trying to absolutely declare NP must be a Servant's weapon (utterly proved wrong by Fragarach's existence, you know the thing that started this argument)

or if it does have a true name but it has no one who can use its true name, it is not a Noble Phantasm!

Funny how you talk about reading comprehension but that you have consistently been unable to properly read, what is it now, 5 separate pieces of texts? Tell me where in that it says NPs must be Servant's weapons? Tell me, where in that would Fragarach, being in the care of Bazett, would prove me wrong?

I'll specifically point it out to you, since basic reading comprehension seems a bit too difficult. To be an NP, the weapon must: Be connected to a legend (i.e. has a true name), and, have a hero (user) (i.e. someone who can use its true name to unleash its power).

to completely random bullshit examples,

Maybe you should think about them.

to just ignoring that the main requirement for a Noble Phantasm is an artifact that's true power is recreated upon speaking its name

Except this ain't it at all, because you can easily conceive of a weapon that has its name as its activation phrase, and this weapon can be used by anybody who says its name, and fulfill the above "requirement", and yet in no way is a Noble Phantasm. This is called a simple counter-example, maybe you should try it.

Based on your current arguments, if I am wrong you just don't have the knowledge, reading comprehension, or just intelligence to prove me so.á

You can't convince those unwilling to read, and in fact, repeatedly demonstrate a complete and utter inability to decipher the meaning of a sequence of words and correctly comprehend their meaning, as well as showing an utter lack of basic logic.

As well, it seems like you didn't read through the post, or else you'd come across the additional argument nested in there that supposes your condition, Excalibur and Avalon were NPs from the start, and yet must logically follow by that same condition that they do not require Arturia, i.e. the exact opposite of what you claim, and in fact what the text claimed. Maybe that part there should tip you off that there's something not quite right with your argument, y'know, if you can actually think about it.

Furthermore, this argument is not for your sake, I don't care about actually convincing you. I've been involved in enough arguments to know that often, the one directly on the other side will not change their mind even in the face of direct and blatant contradictions.

It would still be an exception if it was once wielded by a hero, since its more of a skill thanks to the fact that they have to be constructed and can only be used once. Or that there are more than one of them. Another basis for being a Noble Phantasm is that it has to be the best of that type. No other has had multiple copies.

Fragarach is just strange.

Oh, and:

In Irish mythology, Fragarach, known as 'The Answerer' or 'The Retaliator', was the sword of Manannan mac Lir and Lugh Lamfada.

Oh, and:

Nine Lives.

Another basis for being a Noble Phantasm is that it has to be the best of that type.

Oh and, no. Oh fuck this is so a lolno. First off, you typed it wrong, but I'll let it slide and talk about what you meant instead of what you type. No, fuck that, I'll make fun of you for what you typed. "...best of that type."

So Rho Aias, best shield right?

Oh wait you can say that Avalon is a shield too.

Oh wait, you can solve this problem by more specifically defining type! So, Rho Aias, best shield that protects conceptually.

Oh wait you can say that about Avalon too!

Man, this is a problem, maybe we should make it more specific with the type!

So, Rho Aias, best shield that has a variable number of petals that was used by Ajax that blocked the spear thrown by Hector that is...oh wait this sounds suspiciously like you're defining "type" as whatever that NP is! Oh wow, then surely it's the best of its "type".

(A more shorter but less mocking way of pointing this out is this:

Excalibur is the greatest holy sword. Holy sword = the type.
Consider: Any other NPs that is also a holy sword.

So, unless type is arbitrarily restricted until the statement is essentially: NPs have to be the best of itself, an identity statement, meaningless, then it's not the best of its type.)


Oh for fuck's sake, there are so many things wrong with your posts. Let me just cut you off, if you make an argument against Fragarach having a hero with something like, "Well that's the real world, in the Nasuverse there's no word on if Fragarach had a hero or not!", then you have a serious issue with objectivity and you should look into that.

 

[ttestagr]

Wow. You managed to find a single point of argument I was wrong about. Oh noes! I didn't bother to wiki something!

:sweat2:

All in all, you are rather pathetic at this. Ignoring inconvenient facts, not reading (or not absorbing) the full text of what you're arguing (funny bringing up Nine Lives, which has nothing to do with my statement that Fragarach is more of a technique but still an actual weapon that is a NP.)

Hell, in all that rambling bullshit you never actually once make a full concise thought. It is a failure of dictation and argument.

My argument:

Excalibur and Avalon are created from the wishes of mankind for Arturia's use after Caliburn is lost. My argument is that both are Noble Phantasms from the start. Avalon is the only artifact in the entire story that shows up in its original material form and is a Noble Phantasm. The only explanations for this is that it was always one (which all but assures that Excalibur was as well) or the actual material object upgraded on its own while while it was buried somewhere (an occurrence that has absolutely no precedent.) Both were created from the wishes of humanity, fulfilling the first requirement that the core of the weapon is the imagination of the people. Saber is also not a part of the Throne, as such her weapons would have had to upgrade themselves to Noble Phantasms all on their own.

Just with their creation, Avalon and Excalibur fit the definition of a Noble Phantasm. They were created by imagination for a specific user. This is especially hinted at by Arturia forcing Bedivere to return the blade to the faeries, instead of bequeathing it upon her last loyal knight to continue her will. That is just a hint though. But it helps highlight the question of what were the wishes Excalibur was made out of? What was it supposed to do? Well, we know that. It conceptualizes Arturia's ideals, dedication, and sacrifice, into a weapon to defeat her foes.

Thank you Avider, for doing the google search I didn't care to do for Fragarach's historical information. It is very helpful to my argument. With that one fact, every Noble Phantasm shown is the property of a heroic spirit who would have entered the Throne. Saying that they are the weapons of heroic spirits is very appropriate. With one exception of course, the only exception that we have to heroic spirits at all. Arturia Pendragon, who's soul was moved from her still living body and materialized to fight for the Holy Grail. The difference between her and the others is especially highlighted by the uniqueness of not being able to return to spirit form. Which makes sense with every other summon is a construct of the Throne. When the Masters shut the flow of prana to them, they can no longer materialize. Saber is a still living soul though. She is materialized for good.

So you have one of two contradictions. Either Arturia is the only heroic spirit who's weapons have developed into Noble Phantasms without visiting the Grail, or her weapons always were. You have to have an exception in one of these two ways. One has a potential reason in the way it is forged. The other has no explanation and is an utter mystery. All in all, my explanation is the superior hypothesis because there is a reason there.


Your argument:

NO U!

 

[Deathwings]

Question ! If Noble Phantasm NEED to be the weapons of Heroic Spirits and only appear alongside them, then how the fuck did Archer manage to collect the schematic of so many of them ? Did he took part in a bazillion of Grail Wars or something ?

 

[ttestagr]

Question ! If Noble Phantasm NEED to be the weapons of Heroic Spirits and only appear alongside them, then how the fuck did Archer manage to collect the schematic of so many of them ? Did he took part in a bazillion of Grail Wars or something ?

The majority of Archer's weapons come from seeing Gil's collection. But the specifics about his original Grail War and the rest of his life are extremely vague. So we just don't know.

 

[Avider]

Question ! If Noble Phantasm NEED to be the weapons of Heroic Spirits and only appear alongside them, then how the fuck did Archer manage to collect the schematic of so many of them ? Did he took part in a bazillion of Grail Wars or something ?

Where the heck did I say that...?

????????????????????????

...Ok, back up a bit. Do remember that Heroic Spirits aren't usually summoned with forms and whatnot, the Fuyuki Holy Grail is unique in that regards. Also, do remember that there still exists actual Noble Phantasms, like Avalon, in the modern world. Lastly...yeah Archer kinda did. Partook in a bazillion Grail Wars I mean, or rather he's a Counter Guardian, he's summoned across time.

There's a problem with that though, since Heroic Spirits are supposed to be perfect, so EMIYA shouldn't be able to gain new schematics. So maybe he really just saw a lot in GoB, or maybe his time alive got him to go see a lot of NPs, or maybe the reading of the book is sufficient for UBW to record the information.

Saying that they are the weapons of heroic spirits is very appropriate. With one exception of course, the only exception that we have to heroic spirits at all.

Oh for fuck's sake, you still don't get it. No, that's not it at all. They don't need to be Heroic Spirits, the requirements just happen to be such that they are, unless you can have a situation where an exception can be made. In that, one who was eligible to be a Heroic Spirit...gets taken away somewhere else.

I even broke it down for you: True name + hero (user) who can use the true name.

Either Arturia is the only heroic spirit who's weapons have developed into Noble Phantasms without visiting the Grail

Oh for fuck's sake, you really don't get it at all.

The Grail has shit to do with Noble Phantasms. I read the beginning of the your post, and I see your misconception.

the actual material object upgraded on its own while while it was buried somewhere (an occurrence that has absolutely no precedent.)

That is exactly how it works! In fact, there is a fucking precedent, what the hell do you call Fragarach? What the fuck do you call still existing Noble Phantasms? Were all of them Noble Phantasms from the start as well?

Hell, we even have a general precedence in the case of really old things with history gaining shinpi, all on their own buried somewhere.

Heroic Spirit, Noble Phantasms, both of these things are independent of the mother fucking Grail.

...that's seriously one fucked up misconception.

Wow. You managed to find a single point of argument I was wrong about. Oh noes! I didn't bother to wiki something!

You'll find more than one point being wrong if you can take your head out of your ass, take a class or two in English for reading comprehension past the 3rd grade, and maybe think a little more.

 

[Deathwings]

I have to admit that the way you carry your back and forth using partial quotes is VERY confusing and I may have misunderstood something.

This is why I hate argument of that kind.

 

[Avider]

It's completely compartmentalized. Quote response quote response.

I might get how it would be confusing...which is why I cut down on some of the quote, but I still don't understand how you would get that from what I posted, since I didn't post anything like that. (NP can only appear next to Heroic Spirits I mean.)

Anyways I edited the post to include a bit more information about your question.

 

[ttestagr]

No, you're just incorrect and pulling information out of your ass. Completely failed to address the argument, just utter nonsense from you.

They each have a weapon that became their trademark.
That is the most powerful weapon, called a Noble Phantasm, the crystallization of people's desire for a miracle."

Direct quote from the game, Rin's explanation. A dead on match for Excalibur's creation, a blade forged from the wished of mankind.

 

[Avider]

You say I ignore inconvenient fact? Bring them up point by point if you feel that way and I'll address them, point by point, since by my measure you can't read shit for facts. I'm not ignoring them, I'm plainly saying you're wrong about what they say.

Like the above "facts" you have up there that's so mind-boggingly wrong, that I wonder how any thinking person can come up to such a conclusion with the given information at their disposal.

Hell, fine, if you want I can take a single paragraph and go claim by fucking claim, this one:

Excalibur and Avalon are created from the wishes of mankind <s>for Arturia's use after Caliburn is lost.</s> My argument is that both are Noble Phantasms from the start. <s>Avalon is the only artifact in the entire story that shows up in its original material form and is a Noble Phantasm.</s> <s>The only explanations</s> for this is that it was always one (which all but assures that Excalibur was as well) or the actual material object upgraded on its own while while it was buried somewhere <s>(an occurrence that has absolutely no precedent.)</s> Both were created from the wishes of humanity, <s>fulfilling the first requirement that the core of the weapon is the imagination of the people.</s> Saber is also not a part of the Throne, as such her weapons would have had to upgrade themselves to Noble Phantasms all on their own.

1: "Excalibur and Avalon are created from the wishes of mankind for Arturia's use after Caliburn is lost."

"for Arturia's use after Caliburn is lost."

Pure unfounded speculation, in other words, bull-fucking-shit.

2: " Avalon is the only artifact in the entire story that shows up in its original material form and is a Noble Phantasm."

If you only consider Fate/Zero, if you neglect Hollow and Fragarach, and if you ignore the mother fucking Word of God that there are still some Noble Phantasms that exist in the modern world, as in its original form, then yeah, you're completely fucking right. If you go completely against the entire fucking Nasuverse.

3: " The only explanations for this is that it was always one (which all but assures that Excalibur was as well) or the actual material object upgraded on its own while while it was buried somewhere (an occurrence that has absolutely no precedent.)"

"The only explanations for this is that it was always one (which all but assures that Excalibur was as well)"

No, that is not the only explanation. There's another explanation, you're fucking wrong about your assumption or your basic understanding of the Nasuverse. As in, you're wrong about, "or the actual material object upgraded on its own while while it was buried somewhere (an occurrence that has absolutely no precedent.)"

Which I already outlined in the above, where there are precedence, and it's the entire fucking mechanism.

4: " Both were created from the wishes of humanity, fulfilling the first requirement that the core of the weapon is the imagination of the people."

This proves that you read shit about my posts, since one of the very first thing I did was differentiate between the ideology of creation and the Noble Phantasm promoting mechanism. The random bullshit examples? It was for this very fucking purpose.

5: "Saber is also not a part of the Throne, as such her weapons would have had to upgrade themselves to Noble Phantasms all on their own."

And this is pretty much 3 restated, this definitively demonstrate that you have a severe misconception of Noble Phantasm.

See that? One paragraph, virtually the entire thing was wrong. I can go on to the latter paragraphs, but considering they flow from this one, where it's pretty much all wrong, I think that it's pretty damn clear where they will be.

No, you're just incorrect and pulling information out of your ass.á Completely failed to address the argument, just utter nonsense from you.

More like, you completely fail to understand that I've already addressed your "argument", and furthermore, your argument have been shown to be, you don't know shit about it.

They each have a weapon that became their trademark.
That is the most powerful weapon, called a Noble Phantasm, the crystallization of people's desire for a miracle."

Direct quote from the game, Rin's explanation. A dead on match for Excalibur's creation, a blade forged from the wished of mankind.

See, the problem here, is I have no idea what you're trying to prove with this. You provided no quote to say what you're supposedly refuting, and the context of my post above tells me nothing about what you're trying to refute.



Now how about you respond to the arguments? Let's start with the 1-5, and I would especially love your explanation for 2, 3, and 5.

 

[ttestagr]

Wow. You're an idiot. I'd feel contempt for you if you weren't so pathetic as to be just sad.

For one, Excalibur and Avalon have existed for 1500 years with one wielder. Avalon was actually in the world for someone else to pick up and create a descendant Noble Phantasm with. But it didn't happen. Excalibur is held by the faeries, but never given to anyone. For over a millenia. Bullshit? You make me laugh.

As for your second point, Noble Phantasms that are in the world that we have no information about. At all. If you're going to use that as your argument, well you're running on less than fumes at that point. As for Fragarach, you proved that for me by providing the wiki that it does have a heroic legend connected to it. This is really sad on your part.

Your third point is rambling bullshit. At no point to you come close to making a cognizant argument. Your actual argument is NO U (There's another explanation, you're fucking wrong about your assumption.)

Your fourth point is just bunk. Making up stories off of the top of your head is a pointless endeavor that has no connection to anything. It isn't a theory. It isn't observed fact stated in the work. It is nothing but useless rambling bullshit.

Your fourth is essentially another NO U.

And this is pretty much 3 restated, this definitively demonstrate that you have a severe misconception of Noble Phantasm.

Your debating skills are just horrid. I see no point to continue this, as you're just acting like a screaming child in the middle of a temper tantrum.