Nasuverse FSN Question Thread

[Azure]

BPing Arrows take time, read the bridge scene, Archer was taking several seconds to charge his arrow and shoot, that was why Shirou got that time window to get saber to jump and project his shield. Remember that Archer's normal firing speed is similar to the rate of a machine-gun, spamming arrows continuously at the enemy.

Shirou can dispel his own projections, that is right, but I do think if Lancelot ever took over one of them, Lancelot would become the owner of the projection, and thus Shirou would not be able to dispel it anymore. Also, I am willing to bet, that with some good luck rolls, Lancelot could catch a BP arrow, before it detonates, and then throw it back because he is a heroic spirit.

 

[PCHeintz72]

BPing Arrows take time, read the bridge scene, Archer was taking several seconds to charge his arrow and shoot, that was why Shirou got that time window to get saber to jump and project his shield. Remember that Archer's normal firing speed is similar to the rate of a machine-gun, spamming arrows continuously at the enemy.

Shirou can dispel his own projections, that is right, but I do think if Lancelot ever took over one of them, Lancelot would become the owner of the projection, and thus Shirou would not be able to dispel it anymore. Also, I am willing to bet, that with some good luck rolls, Lancelot could catch a BP arrow, before it detonates, and then throw it back because he is a heroic spirit.

I'm not really convinced Shirou could be hurt by a piece of himself... and even if so I cannot imagine Lancelot taking over a or taking ownership of such a thing faster than Shirou could dispel it...

However, it could be important in a story that *Shirou* believe it to be the case...

Kind of like a Ranma scene where Ranma *thought* the breaking point Ryoga knew could be used on a human, that belief, which was false, forced him to train and fight him in a completely different way than would have otherwise been the case.

 

[Rising Dragon]

So in Fate/prototype, what exactly are the thirteen constraints placed on Excalibur?

 

[ttestagr]

BPing Arrows take time, read the bridge scene, Archer was taking several seconds to charge his arrow and shoot, that was why Shirou got that time window to get saber to jump and project his shield. Remember that Archer's normal firing speed is similar to the rate of a machine-gun, spamming arrows continuously at the enemy.

Shirou can dispel his own projections, that is right, but I do think if Lancelot ever took over one of them, Lancelot would become the owner of the projection, and thus Shirou would not be able to dispel it anymore. Also, I am willing to bet, that with some good luck rolls, Lancelot could catch a BP arrow, before it detonates, and then throw it back because he is a heroic spirit.

I'm not really convinced Shirou could be hurt by a piece of himself... and even if so I cannot imagine Lancelot taking over a or taking ownership of such a thing faster than Shirou could dispel it...

However, it could be important in a story that *Shirou* believe it to be the case...

Kind of like a Ranma scene where Ranma *thought* the breaking point Ryoga knew could be used on a human, that belief, which was false, forced him to train and fight him in a completely different way than would have otherwise been the case.

All Servants can call their weapons back to them as well as dispel them back into intangibility. Knight of Honor jacks them hardcore and keeps it from happening. Shirou would lose any weapon the guy gets his hands on.

 

[shioran toushin]

ok, but then they would become 'realer' thanks to KoH or would Lancelot start to mantain them?

 

[ttestagr]

ok, but then they would become 'realer' thanks to KoH or would Lancelot start to mantain them?

The former. KoH would make it 'his' Noble Phantasm and it would act that way while its in his possession.

 

[daniel_gudman]

...What if EMIYA traced Arondight (I mean, assuming he had it recorded somehow)?

When Lancelot draws it, KoH is sealed.

10 KoH => Emiya's Arondight becomes Berskersalot's Arondight
20 No more KoH
30 Berserksalot's Arondight reverts to Emiya's Arondight
40 KoH back on
50 GOTO 10

???

 

[Rising Dragon]

Very likely Arondight is under the same UBW restriction as Excalibur, due to it being a fairy-created sword, so I doubt Shirou could trace it at all.

 

[Mu-sensei]

Fate!Shirou can possibly trace all the weapons of the knights of the round if you tweak his 'dreams' a bit. UBW!Shirou of the threesome end might be able to do the same.

 

[MastaofBitches]

Very likely Arondight is under the same UBW restriction as Excalibur, due to it being a fairy-created sword, so I doubt Shirou could trace it at all.

He managed Caliburn fairly well. I think he can't do Excalibur, not because it was made by Fairies, but because it's literally the crystallization of humanities hopes and dreams... Or something along those lines. It's not actually made of iron or steel.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

I suppose Lancelot's KoH would constantly flicker on and off, until the traced Arondight is dispelled while it's "Emiya's but in Lancelot's hand."

Either that or Lancelot's NP Arondight wouldn't be the same thing as "Emiya's projection of Arondight currently being jacked by KoH," meaning that KoH isn't sealed while Lancelot's holding it.

 

[Rising Dragon]

Very likely Arondight is under the same UBW restriction as Excalibur, due to it being a fairy-created sword, so I doubt Shirou could trace it at all.

He managed Caliburn fairly well. I think he can't do Excalibur, not because it was made by Fairies, but because it's literally the crystallization of humanities hopes and dreams... Or something along those lines. It's not actually made of iron or steel.

Caliburn was created by a man, though, and not a fae creature like Excalibur was, and IIRC even then he needed Saber's help to create it outside of Unlimited Blade Works.

 

[ttestagr]

...What if EMIYA traced Arondight (I mean, assuming he had it recorded somehow)?

When Lancelot draws it, KoH is sealed.

10 KoH => Emiya's Arondight becomes Berskersalot's Arondight
20 No more KoH
30 Berserksalot's Arondight reverts to Emiya's Arondight
40 KoH back on
50 GOTO 10

???

That is the specific type of rules lawyering that Nasu likes. So add another note between 30 and 40 where Shirou or Archer dispel it and leave Lance open for just long enough to get stabbed in the face.

 

[shioran toushin]

what about giving lance faulty and cursed weaponry?

 

[Rising Dragon]

Honestly giving Lancelot anything would end poorly for his opponent. A lot of cursed weaponry in Type-MOON applies the curse to the victim rather than the wielder, like Gae Bolg for instance.

Lancelot earned that Noble Phantasm by defending himself with a tree branch, which is hardly the ideal of weapons. With it he was able to outfight Saber with a freaking iron pole.

 

[Fellgrave]

Question for you all here, well, actually two of them for my RanmaxFate cross.

#1. It is my understanding that the cursed flames caused by the Grail at the end of the Fourth War were the cause of Shirou's distortion and lack of memories, effectively burning away parts of himself as fuel, correct? And one of Shirou's steps for Tracing is magically simulating the passage of time and the accumulation of age of an object, again, correct?

If so, then could the flames work in reverse, as in burning away the component years of a person's life and making him younger?

#2 The black mud produced by the Grail struck everyone it touched with a curse, correct? Mortals at least, as I understand Heroic Spirits are instead Blackened by exposure to the mud. According to the wiki, the mud would curse one person, kill him, and use his suffering and life as prana for the next curse.

If so, two things: one, how did Shirou survive long enough for Avalon to be implanted in him; and two, if the mud drew off some prana from a person, could it say, draw off another curse? And thereafter use that curse? Furthermore, could it pass said curse onto a Heroic Spirit if it so chose?

Any feedback would be awesome.

 

[Kibbles]

Question for you all here, well, actually two of them for my RanmaxFate cross.

#1. It is my understanding that the cursed flames caused by the Grail at the end of the Fourth War were the cause of Shirou's distortion and lack of memories, effectively burning away parts of himself as fuel, correct? And one of Shirou's steps for Tracing is magically simulating the passage of time and the accumulation of age of an object, again, correct?

If so, then could the flames work in reverse, as in burning away the component years of a person's life and making him younger?

Ah ... no. The flames were mundane, if very extensive. The curse was limited to the very epicentre and even then only for a short time (enough to affect Kiritsugu, Kotomine and Gilgamesh, but no-one else). The curse's presence is still felt in the park afterward, but that's a fairly minor side-effect.

Don't ascribe to magic what can be ascribed to simple trauma. The trauma and subsequent personality issues (a rather extreme case of survivor's guilt, really) could've been handled. Unfortunately, Kiritsugu sucks as a parent and, secondly, Japanese culture tends to look down on psychologists. It's a bit of a perfect storm to create someone as broken as Shirou.

It's not magic. It's not a distortion. It's untreated trauma. Simple as that.

#2 The black mud produced by the Grail struck everyone it touched with a curse, correct? Mortals at least, as I understand Heroic Spirits are instead Blackened by exposure to the mud. According to the wiki, the mud would curse one person, kill him, and use his suffering and life as prana for the next curse.

If so, two things: one, how did Shirou survive long enough for Avalon to be implanted in him; and two, if the mud drew off some prana from a person, could it say, draw off another curse? And thereafter use that curse? Furthermore, could it pass said curse onto a Heroic Spirit if it so chose?

Shirou wasn't exposed to the mud. His lungs were damaged by smoke inhalation and he probably had severe burns on, well, most of his body, but he wasn't exposed to Angra Mainyu at any point. Kiritsugu was exposed and it played merry havoc with his circuits, ultimately leaving him unable to use magic. If he hadn't traded away Avalon to Shirou he might even have recovered, though that is a bit of an iffy prospect. Avalon quickly became fairly passive as it was no longer being charged by Saber, even if indirectly.

Secondly, the mud/curses don't spread indirectly and never have. I have no idea where that particular idea came from. If you're exposed directly (by, say, touching it) you're in trouble. Coming into contact with someone who had been doesn't do anything. Angra Mainyu's 'birth' as of the end of the Grail War would've simply produced enough of the mud to cover most of the planet.

 

[shioran toushin]

and even then, what it did at the end of the fourth was:
Crippling Kirigitsu and giving him a death sentence (the latter being more like what Shirou experimented himself near the end of the Fate Route)
Giving Kirei a Fake Heart made of Curses
and as Gil's sense of self and ego are ginormous... it just gave him a Fleshy body (and may or not may have made him a little more crazy/omnicidal/stupid).

and the other effects of the curse may be seen in F/SN in both Fate route by Shirou (and Saber in one of the bad ends IIRC) and in UBW by Rin (i don't take Heaven's Feel into account because the curse and Angra Manyu were tainted by Sakura's... Sakurasness, wich is not bad, but it's not pure Angra Manyu)

 

[Fellgrave]

Well... damn. Okay, this is good actually, this is what I was looking for.

Okay, so I was off by quite a bit I suppose. For flames and trauma, I see what you mean. Which is annoying, because it means I need to find another way to take away the years off a character... hmm, actually, I might have an idea about that.

But for the curse thing, I wasn't saying that they spread indirectly at all, as they still needed contact to work. What I was saying (after doing some research on the wiki that obviously wasn't thorough enough) was, well, I'll just quote the page here to make it easier to see what I was thinking:

Ichor leaks from the Grail when it is first being established. Its nature is a curse so strong that it is visible, so it can be called prana specialized for destroying people. It can not be practically used in any way, as it cannot be reshaped or anything of the sort. It stains anybody it touches with a strong curse and melts them as if they were being digested. The pain and fear felt before death remains as prana and becomes the next curse to seek out living people. It will kill anyone it touches unless they can remove it from their body before they are melted away. Those who are not dissolved will be assaulted mentally by "All the World's Evil", eventually going insane or left cursed by its after effects, such as Kiritsugu Emiya, who lives for a number of years while suffering under the curse until it causes his death

Page Link: http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Angra_Mainyu#All_the_World.27s_Evils

'Nother question now, but if someone was partially or only temporarily exposed to the mud, and if they had a force of personality similar to Gilgamesh (not on the same level as that would be impossible, but close though) could they resist some of the effects?

 

[shioran toushin]

first, if it's a Ranma crossover (because you mentioned it) there are the Aging Mushrooms, OTOH in Fate one of the things i could see it working like that is what Ilya did to Shirou in Heaven's feel (absurdly hazardous), the Puppet!Shirou and in one of the Bad Ends she ended up putting Shirou's Soul into a conteiner.

for the Curse i'll simply refer you to the game itself
Fellow vics of the Fire: http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20105/
Kirei using the Curse: http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20110/
Shirou being submerged in All Evils of the World: http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20111/

and to be honest, no, the only two who were left more or less 'unchanged' by it were kirei who was already a nutcase with deep troubles (and it revived him) and Gilgamesh (who's Ego and 'Soul Density' were so freaking strong that it only gave him a real body and IMHO slightly upped his megalomania) as the others?
Kiri was fucked up, Shirou had Avalon and still was almost melted, Rin was Burned and she was only victim to a watered down version of the curse, Shinji was so traumatized he ended up with a conciense (in Shirou's PoV) and it completely corrupted freaking Herakles and almost fully controlled a corrupted Saber...

 

[Fellgrave]

Hmm, well, I wanted to avoid using the Aging shrooms because of how cliche they are, but I think I might have a workaround for it.

Thanks for those links, they helped out quite a bit in putting things together for me.

The black mud, at it's base most essence, it is still 'Curse'. So what I'm arguing is that the type of curse might change. For example, Gilgamesh was given the 'Curse of Living', Kiritsugu the 'Curse of Regret', Kirei the... actually I can't really think of one for Kirei. And lastly, for the entire world, the 'Curse of Destruction'. I think that if it came into contact with another curse it would absorb said curse and use it against others as it deemed fit.

And yes, Shirou was almost melted, but he had been almost completely covered by the mud and he was still able to break free. If someone with a much stronger sense of self was doused by the mud, they should be much more easily able to break free. In a way, I draw some parrallel between Gilgamesh's pride and Ranma's pride, as they both believe (true or not) that they are superior to all others.

 

[Deathwings]

God, that idea of yours is hitting so many of my NOPE triggers it's not even funny. If you actually manage to make something worthwhile out of this complete mess then you'll have my respect. 'Cause it's going to take A LOT of work to manage it.

 

[daniel_gudman]

The black mud, at it's base most essence, it is still 'Curse'.

dood

It's like, all the Curses.

Don't try and jury-rig the, the closest thing to Manifest Pure Evil that exists in the whole setting, into the kludge you use to force the kind of crossover you want to happen.

If you absolutely need to de-age Ranma instead of just using the eight-year-old version of him or whatever, don't do it with the Sludge of Malice. In the audience's mind, it will completely overwrite whatever you wanted to achieve because you dipped him in liquid darkness.

EDIT:
Ah, I'd swing it by having Ranma coming to Ryuudouji to look for the Dragon's Blessing or something to undo whatever de-aged him in the first place; the de-aging would be a fait accompli mentioned in passing without needing any deeper explanation. Then he would get kidnapped in the middle of the 4th War by Caster, and he'd break free, and he'd wander around town, and then he'd be close to the epicenter of the Event.

Or you could use the Potion of Youth that Gil had stashed in his Gate (somehow; that's up to you to figure out). That's probably the simplest and easiest way to do it; especially since it regresses the mind as well as the body (as per FHA).

 

[shioran toushin]

Ranma=Gilgamesh in the ego department is... there are no words to describe just how WRONG that comparsion is, apart from that Shirou WTFPWNS Ranma in the sense of self department, why?
because while Shirou has no self worth his personality and strenght of character is so defined, so freaking Solid that not even being confronted by his cynic Future Alternate disilusioned self managed to shake his resolve in doing what he thinks is Right and he only managed to escape Angra Mainyu because he managed to Deus Ex Machina a Functional, Working, Perfect Trace of Avalon, Gilgamesh is entitled to his ginormous Ego because he really IS ALL THAT, everything really did belong to him and he can back up his boasts (unless they are Saber, Lancelot and EMIYA and he doesn't use Sha Nagba Imuru) in comparsion Ranma is a whinny one-trick ponny socially inept illiterate (not stupid, but illiterate and uneducated in many things, and while he likes to read he doesn't consider learning other things important) battle savant whose identity is so fragile that he 'must' accept any and every challenge to himself and can't even make a decision worth his life...

Gil's Pride is Justified, Ranma's Pride is a flimsy membrane worth shit (and it's only about martial arts fighting or when talking about his masculinity), so no a Ranma Doused in Mud either becomes Melted Ranma or he becomes absolutely insane (he is literally being subject to all evils of the World afterall), and no, at it's basest primordial level the Mud is All Evils of/on the World ("the staring penalty is five...") and in comparsion the harshest thing Ranma has ever been subject to is the Neko-ken and Saffron and the 'Evilest' thing was the incense and the 'oni', so no.

OTOH for Ranma's age reduction i could suggest a malfunctioning Broken and Shattered Nanban Mirror wich deaged his body (or send his mind to an alternate dimension AKA Nasuverse along with deaging his body)

 

[Fellgrave]

It's like, all the Curses.

Don't try and jury-rig the, the closest thing to Manifest Pure Evil that exists in the whole setting, into the kludge you use to force the kind of crossover you want to happen.

If you absolutely need to de-age Ranma instead of just using the eight-year-old version of him or whatever, don't do it with the Sludge of Malice. In the audience's mind, it will completely overwrite whatever you wanted to achieve because you dipped him in liquid darkness.

EDIT:
Ah, I'd swing it by having Ranma coming to Ryuudouji to look for the Dragon's Blessing or something to undo whatever de-aged him in the first place; the de-aging would be a fait accompli mentioned in passing without needing any deeper explanation. Then he would get kidnapped in the middle of the 4th War by Caster, and he'd break free, and he'd wander around town, and then he'd be close to the epicenter of the Event.

Or you could use the Potion of Youth that Gil had stashed in his Gate (somehow; that's up to you to figure out). That's probably the simplest and easiest way to do it; especially since it regresses the mind as well as the body (as per FHA).

Fair enough. For the Potion, does Gilgamesh lose control over what comes of his treasury when he's spamming it? As in, he's focusing more on sending as much stuff as possible than exactly what he's using? Secondly, does it need to be ingested to function? Because I'm thinking that I might use that.

Maybe I overstated it a bit with the comparison. Ranma by no means comes close to the 'size' of Gilgamesh's ego, but the 'shape' of their egos are similar, as in they both think themselves above other people. And again, for Ranma it is to a far lesser degree, but he does think that way.