Nasuverse FSN Question Thread

[shioran toushin]

actually Ranma's pride as in "i must not appear weak" instead of the "i'm freaking proud of myself and can back every boeast i make" only applies to reafirm his status as a male and in Martial arts, in everything else he doesn't believe that he is indeed better than others, don't compare Gil or Shirou with Ranma, if anything the only one simmilar to him would be Shinji (if Shinji had something to feel proud of *like ranma's martial arts* and was less of a freak and more of a human being).

example:
Gil feels that he is better than everyone else because he kinda IS better than everyone else
Ranma boasts that he is better than everyone else because his father taught and conditioned him that without being aknowledged he is worthles and will feel emasculated.
Shinji treats everyone else like Shit because of his inferiority complex (feeded by Zoken just because and to help in the breaking of Sakura) because he lacks Magic potential and feels inferior to anyone who does.

and Gil has absolute control over what comes from and goes into his Vault, if he doesn't want it out then it doesn't come out, and yes it needs to be ingested to work (and it regreses the body and the mind, but the actual memories are not lost).

 

[the DragonBard]

In the Unlimited Blade Works movie, which path does it take, Good or True?

 

[MastaofBitches]

Pretty sure Good was Rin's Harem end, so True?

 

[Rising Dragon]

The UBW movie goes through the True End route, though it seems to leave out Shirou joining Rin in London to be her apprentice in the Clock Tower. The Good End has Saber surviving the destruction of the Grail and continuing to exist in the modern world as Rin's Servant and in a three-way relationship, which you most certainly do not see in the movie.

 

[Jimbobob5536]

What ending do you think would be chosen for a Heaven's Feel anime/movie?

 

[daniel_gudman]

What ending do you think would be chosen for a Heaven's Feel anime/movie?

would be?

Well, the facile thing to say is, "Normal" if they were aiming at going for a Sad Ending, and "True" if they were going for a Happy Ending. So if they were gonna focus on Shirou saving Sakura then it would be True, but if the focus was on him betraying himself, it would probably be Normal. Basically it would probably depend most on how much input the Urobutcher had during the storyboarding.

should be?

Mind of Steel.

Well, that didn't have enough foreshadowing really, so it would need to be rewritten to make it a legitimate choice within the anime itself, rather than a call-back to the other two routes of the game like it was in the VN.




And if it's taking the Third Option,

I would rather see an anime of the Fate or UBW routes properly, rather than the lukewarm mashup that the anime made of the two. (The UBW movie was like way too fast-paced; it was basically a string of fight scenes that you had to fill the game in around).


But that's because the ending of Heaven's Feel just made me feel bad. If they made a Heaven's Feel anime I wouldn't watch it, and I would hope other people would also ignore it so it didn't influence the fanfiction scene towards writing post-HF stuff.

 

[Prince Charon]

But that's because the ending of Heaven's Feel just made me feel bad. If they made a Heaven's Feel anime I wouldn't watch it, and I would hope other people would also ignore it so it didn't influence the fanfiction scene towards writing post-HF stuff.

You don't like Sakura getting a happy ending, or you don't like the way that particular happy ending was handled?

 

[daniel_gudman]

I don't like that Sakura's happy ending had to devour hundreds of people first.

Or that Emiya Shirou threw away the one thing he cared about most to allow that.

Maybe for Sakura it was a happy ending, but for the people of Fuyuki, it was a worse disaster than the Fire by a factor of about three or so.

So yeah, I don't like Sakura getting that particular happy ending, because by the time she got it, I don't think she deserved a happy ending anymore.


In a story about a boy that sincerely tried to save people, it was the ending where the most innocent bystanders got killed, so there's no way I can consider it a "happy ending" as a rule.

 

[Prince Charon]

I don't like that Sakura's happy ending had to devour hundreds of people first.

Or that Emiya Shirou threw away the one thing he cared about most to allow that.

Maybe for Sakura it was a happy ending, but for the people of Fuyuki, it was a worse disaster than the Fire by a factor of about three or so.

So yeah, I don't like Sakura getting that particular happy ending, because by the time she got it, I don't think she deserved a happy ending anymore.

I tend not to blame characters for things that I'm very dubious as to how much control they had over (that's a terrible sentence, but hopefully, it conveys the idea). I can't come up with a good metaphor for this, but while I would certainly blame someone who intentionally got drunk and then drove, I can't assign the same degree of fault to someone who was forcefed Literally Evil drugs (worms with grail mud linked to Angra Mainyu), didn't know quite what was going on for a significant portion of the time, went very crazy under very much stress, and totally stopped hurting people once given the antidote (stabbed with Rule Breaker).

This is probably not the place to rehash this argument, though - I've seen it presented by both sides multiple times, and have yet to see convincing proof of Sakura deserving the level of blame the other side of said argument assigns to her.

 

[Fellgrave]

Question time again.

Is Irisviel's soul destroyed by the Grail after (during the time) it is summoned, or does she still continue to exist in some way within it?

Edit: My opinion on the Sakura's fate debate; while she did a lot of bad things, I don't necessarily see her as being an 'evil' or 'bad' character not deserving of a chance for happiness. More a broken one that had a whole wackload of shit happen to her that made her go crazy. That said, I have to agree with daniel_gudman in that I find that one particular ending not to my taste with the extent of which her crazy went and was then subsequently rewarded.

 

[Rising Dragon]

I don't think her soul is destroyed. Not even the souls of the Servants who enter the Grail upon death are destroyed, so I can't imagine its vessel would suffer that fate.

 

[shioran toushin]

IIRC all souls enter the Reincarnation Cycle (if they were Human or a product of it and not adopted by Gaia or something else... or cheated like Roa), there is not Soul Destruction when dead, not even if it was killed by all evils on the world (can't say what would happen if she was 'soul killed' by Ryougi Shiki in her Void Personality).

as for the Sakura Endings, i feel that Normal one was the best (because Sakura has only two endings, MoS was Shirou's and all the others spelled doom to the world) because Sakura went 'unhinged' by both Guilt for what she almost willingly did (Shinji), for what she was 'forced to do' (everyone else the 'Shadow' consumed) all the trauma she suffered (Zoken and his plots) and the fact that her only source of 'strenght' and 'hope' sacrificed himself for her...

in the other ending, she doesn't appear to have learned nothing, everyone forgot those the Sadow killed like they weren't living beings or the fact that Shirou is the modern equivalent of pinocchio or the fact that Ilya was dead, they were all lovely dovely as if nothing had ever happened and Rin was happy that the four of them had nothing to worry about.

yes for Sakura fans and Sakura obsessed individuals it was tha gr3atest ending of all times, i agree that it wasn't a bad ending (if you only take into account that last scene and ignore everything else incluiding the previous 'days' and the other routes) but it seemed off.

 

[Amodelsino]

The reincarnation cycle is effectively destruction. All that survives is the origin. Everything else is just used as material.

 

[Fellgrave]

Hmm, maybe I asked the wrong question.

The Grail is shown to use Irisviel's appearance and personality (though not quite an exact copy) when appearing to Kiritsugu in Fate/Zero. However, does Irisviel's actual personality and soul still exist within the Grail at the same time?

 

[daniel_gudman]

There are two statements that might inform that.

1) Angra Mainyu was using Iri's face for the sake of fucking with Kerry. It's not that there was any Iri there, it's that AM chose the form that would allow it to hurt Kerry the most.

2) If the homonculus "Irisival von Einzbern" was the Lesser Grail, then the Greater Grail was the homonculus "Justica von Einzbern". Since Iri was coined using Justica as the design template, there might have been some overlap from there involved; that is to say, Iri looks like Justica and Justica was the actual UI.

 

[Fellgrave]

So that's a no then. Damn.

Would it kill Suspension of Disbelief if I had a fragment of Irisviel's soul stick around and interact with another character while Angra Mainyu is distracted with Kiritsugu?

 

[daniel_gudman]

Emmn it depends.

I mean, it's not really like it's all that big a deal, but on the other hand, the whole reason she was dying and falling apart was because her "functionality as a human" was destroyed by the "functionality of the Grail". So her physical death was a side effect of the her spiritual destruction, not the other way around.

Well, at the same time that Kerry was getting the Your Wish is Impossible treatment, the Grail was fixing Gil up with a meat body, and also giving Kiri a heart transplant, and also it was burning down the town.

So the idea that it was interacting with other people in the vicinity, and attempting to grant their wishes (in the most violent way possible)... you don't need Iri to do that, just have AM do it wearing whatever face you want it to.

 

[Fellgrave]

Well, it was the "most violent way possible" thing that I wanted to avoid.

And I thought that the functionality thing was more like an internal conversion of the body into a system that can function as the Lesser Grail, not necessarily a spiritual thing, hence why Avalon was able to stave off the effects?

 

[Rising Dragon]

I thought Kerry's "Your Wish is Impossible" treatment happened before it started working its magic on Gilgamesh and Kirei.

 

[daniel_gudman]

I dunno about the exact timing. It was all around the same time. And anyway, an "omnipotent wish-granting device" splitting its attention a couple ways is, like, not a big deal.

Well, it was the "most violent way possible" thing that I wanted to avoid.

And I thought that the functionality thing was more like an internal conversion of the body into a system that can function as the Lesser Grail, not necessarily a spiritual thing, hence why Avalon was able to stave off the effects?

It's more like the complete opposite of that. It's a spiritual thing that merely affected the body as a side-effect.

Avalon protects against aging and degradation as well as providing regeneration, so it could effect her either way.

The "most violent way possible thing" is completely unavoidable. Well, you could avoid it by not using the Grail. That would probably do it.

 

[Fellgrave]

Hmm, okay.

Now I'm just testing to see how far I can take this without making myself sound like a complete idiot, but, perhaps when Angra Mainyu brought up Iri's personality to use against Kiritsugu, it brought up her entire personality, including her good side, which was subsequently pushed off to the side. While that part will still grant a wish violently, the part of Irisviel that is there tempers it a little, making the result less violent than it could be.

Too much beyond belief?

 

[daniel_gudman]

You're putting the cart before the horse.

What are you even trying to do, anyway?

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Daniel, you want to run your concerns about the Einzbern Wishcraft magic by the people in this thread? Maybe a larger sampling of Nasu-fans can provide a way to deal with it where the fans of your story alone failed.

There's probably also at least one Nasuverse Discussion thread over at SpaceBattles. And of course, "The Beast's Lair" Nasuverse forum.

 

[Fellgrave]

You're putting the cart before the horse.

What are you even trying to do, anyway?

First, what does that phrase even mean? Second...

Well, my questions all come back to my Ranma crossover that I'm writing. I didn't want to really expound on what I'm doing too much since it's still a work in progress, but... yeah.

Spoiler

So, in it Ranma ends up replacing Shirou, going through the fire and getting rescued etc. etc. What I want to do, since I've gotten some plot twists and ideas into my head, is that through some method (the original draft laid the cause at Zelretch's feet) Ranma's cursed form changes into what he would look like as if his mother had been Irisviel.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

I don't like that Sakura's happy ending had to devour hundreds of people first.

Or that Emiya Shirou threw away the one thing he cared about most to allow that.

Maybe for Sakura it was a happy ending, but for the people of Fuyuki, it was a worse disaster than the Fire by a factor of about three or so.

So yeah, I don't like Sakura getting that particular happy ending, because by the time she got it, I don't think she deserved a happy ending anymore.


In a story about a boy that sincerely tried to save people, it was the ending where the most innocent bystanders got killed, so there's no way I can consider it a "happy ending" as a rule.

Sakura wasn't actually at fault for some things, and -- I feel -- can't be fully blamed for the other things.

I certainly agree that it's a Bad End for SHIROU, though. And it's not as much of a happy end as Sakura deserves, because she's going to be REALLY unhappy about the number of people her Shadow devoured.

And yeah, it's a Bad End for all the people who died, but since when does a story derive the happiness of its ending from a bunch of "extras" whom are never given faces or names? Lots of people die in all three routes -- plenty of them before the story ever starts -- and that doesn't seem to prevent Fate and UBW Good or True from being happy endings.

That's the arbitrary nature of stories as opposed to events in real life. In real life, people you've never met really matter. In stories, not so much.


But returning to the Heaven's Feel route, I have NEVER finished that one and I might NEVER finish that one, simply because of how badly it destroys Shirou.

It's painful to watch.

If I want to read about Sakura being saved, I can do so from fanfiction that continues after Fate or UBW. Or from stories that make up their own Sakura-centric routes.


Oh, and I disagree that Mind of Steel is anything like a good ending for Shirou, either. It's certainly a Bad End.

You yourself said that anything which makes Kotomine Kirei happy is a bad, bad sign, since that man's goal in life is to make people suffer for his own amusement.

Even if that's not what you meant, I state that Mind of Steel is not a suitable ending for a movie adaptation of Heaven's Feel.