Harry Potter [Harry Potter]Miscellaneous ideas topic.

[zerohour]

What if Hermione was, at best,y average in magical talent?

She's still as smart as she ever was, but for some reason or another, her practical skills in magic are average at best.  She still writes long essays on the various charms and transfigurations, but has much more difficulty actually executing the spells.  Sometimes even Neville can pull it off before her, though that's rare.

What effect would that have on Hermione?  Would she redouble her efforts, ignoring everything around her to prove that she's just as good with magic as she is with regular schoolwork?  Would she have some sort of breakdown when she loses her place as the best and brightest?  Would she start to think Malfoy was right, and that she was weaker because of her muggle parents?

Just thought it might make for an interesting story.

 

[The Ero-Sennin]

What if Hermione was, at best,y average in magical talent?

She's still as smart as she ever was, but for some reason or another, her practical skills in magic are average at best.  She still writes long essays on the various charms and transfigurations, but has much more difficulty actually executing the spells.  Sometimes even Neville can pull it off before her, though that's rare.

What effect would that have on Hermione?  Would she redouble her efforts, ignoring everything around her to prove that she's just as good with magic as she is with regular schoolwork?  Would she have some sort of breakdown when she loses her place as the best and brightest?  Would she start to think Malfoy was right, and that she was weaker because of her muggle parents?

Just thought it might make for an interesting story.

I think she'd improvise, personally. Start making spells that are efficient and powerful. She'd probably become the next HBP.

 

[AoMythology]

What if Hermione was, at best,y average in magical talent?

She's still as smart as she ever was, but for some reason or another, her practical skills in magic are average at best.  She still writes long essays on the various charms and transfigurations, but has much more difficulty actually executing the spells.  Sometimes even Neville can pull it off before her, though that's rare.

What effect would that have on Hermione?  Would she redouble her efforts, ignoring everything around her to prove that she's just as good with magic as she is with regular schoolwork?  Would she have some sort of breakdown when she loses her place as the best and brightest?  Would she start to think Malfoy was right, and that she was weaker because of her muggle parents?

Just thought it might make for an interesting story.

I think she'd improvise, personally. Start making spells that are efficient and powerful. She'd probably become the next HBP.

I don't know - she's nowhere near as creative as Snape.

 

[The Ero-Sennin]

What if Hermione was, at best,y average in magical talent?

She's still as smart as she ever was, but for some reason or another, her practical skills in magic are average at best.  She still writes long essays on the various charms and transfigurations, but has much more difficulty actually executing the spells.  Sometimes even Neville can pull it off before her, though that's rare.

What effect would that have on Hermione?  Would she redouble her efforts, ignoring everything around her to prove that she's just as good with magic as she is with regular schoolwork?  Would she have some sort of breakdown when she loses her place as the best and brightest?  Would she start to think Malfoy was right, and that she was weaker because of her muggle parents?

Just thought it might make for an interesting story.

I think she'd improvise, personally. Start making spells that are efficient and powerful. She'd probably become the next HBP.

I don't know - she's nowhere near as creative as Snape.

Necessity is the mother of invention, and for a girl like Hermione, maintaining dignity is a matter of necessity. Simply out of the need to make up for her deficiencies, I think she would start thinking outside of the box with her spellcrafting.

 

[AoMythology]

What if Hermione was, at best,y average in magical talent?

She's still as smart as she ever was, but for some reason or another, her practical skills in magic are average at best.  She still writes long essays on the various charms and transfigurations, but has much more difficulty actually executing the spells.  Sometimes even Neville can pull it off before her, though that's rare.

What effect would that have on Hermione?  Would she redouble her efforts, ignoring everything around her to prove that she's just as good with magic as she is with regular schoolwork?  Would she have some sort of breakdown when she loses her place as the best and brightest?  Would she start to think Malfoy was right, and that she was weaker because of her muggle parents?

Just thought it might make for an interesting story.

I think she'd improvise, personally. Start making spells that are efficient and powerful. She'd probably become the next HBP.

I don't know - she's nowhere near as creative as Snape.

Necessity is the mother of invention, and for a girl like Hermione, maintaining dignity is a matter of necessity. Simply out of the need to make up for her deficiencies, I think she would start thinking outside of the box with her spellcrafting.

I think I like this idea. Would she still be friends with Harry? If so, how would he be affected by a more badass Hermione?

 

[nuclear death frog]

If she's only average/below average at spellcasting, that should carry over to any spells she invents. There's no reason to think the spells taught in classes at Hogwarts are especially advanced or powerful; if anything, it has to be the opposite. They have to be castable by the least capable alongside the most. There are no advanced classes, and the only hint of any remedial classes was something Snape said to Malfoy as a diversion.

 

[zerohour]

Attaining a greater mastery of magic seems in character for Hermione, but she isn't particularly creative.  She tends to follow the rules, especially in the earlier books.   Experimenting doesn't seem in her nature at that point, and it kind of defeats the purpose of my idea.  I'm just curious how Hermione would react if she was no longer the "best" in school, and could potentially be considered a dunce or even a squib by most people.


I think she would probably have a breakdown at some point.  No longer being top student is bound to have an effect on her, especially if she is barely scraping by in her mind.

In the long run, I think it would be good for her, once she breaks out of the need to be exceptional.  She still would want to do well, but it wouldn't be her driving force.  She could relax a bit, maybe make some more friends outside of the trio, try new things now that she isn't spending all her free time revising, and so on.



Half Blood Prince style... doesn't seem likely to be an option, at least not in the early years.  Spell research and experimentation seems like something that would be restricted to the upper years, those who have passed their OWLs at least.  Perhaps if she had magical relatives, a few might be willing to help her out, but she doesn't.  Checking out knockturn alley might be an option, but a 12 year old muggleborn girl going into the dark part of town seems likely to bring an abrupt end to the story.  Possibly Dark Magic might offer her a few options, but again, the issue is how a muggleborn girl could get access to it without a patron of some sort.



All of that aside, If she does go the half blood prince route, creating her own spells, she would probably share them with her friends, at first anyways, once she starts seeing them master them faster and cast the, better than her, I see her either stopping or hoarding the knowledge for herself.  If she continued the research, she would probably start to isolate herself, simply be refusing to share her skills with her friends, and might even end up being a female version of Snape.  Could be interesting, assuming a fangirl doesn't turn it into a weird romance thing.   Perhaps something could break her from that path, such as Harry getting hurt because she wouldn't share her spells with him, but honestly, that doesn't seem likely.

 

[Yorae Rasante]

This makes me think of Familiar of Zero. Top Knowledge, Zero Practice.
Save Hermione would be Average Practice, which while not the best is far from poor.

 

[Rising Dragon]

This makes me think of Familiar of Zero. Top Knowledge, Zero Practice.
Save Hermione would be Average Practice, which while not the best is far from poor.

Yeah, no.  Terrible comparison.  Louise's incapabilities were not from a lack of practice; her magic was literally sealed away so she could barely use it at all.

 

[zerohour]

Third year would definitely change, since I don't see McGonagal getting a time turner for a student who clearly struggles to attain their average (or slightly above average with enough effort) marks.  Could mean that Sirius ends up executed, unless circumstances have changed enough that he manages to get free some other way.
What classes do you think she would take, since she can't sign up for all of them like she originally did?
If she takes Divination, do you think she would stick with it, since her difficulties in the class are nothing new to her at this point?

 

[nuclear death frog]

I'd expect her to take the same three she stuck with after third year in canon: Arithmancy, Ancient Runes, Care of Magical Creatures. She might even choose only two of them to give herself more time for the wand classes; in that case, I would wager a guess she'd drop Care first.

It's possible she could come to regret that (plausible or implausible) choice though -- Runes *seems* in canon to be just languages, and Arithmancy is never detailed. Care of Magical Creatures seems to be very practical work oriented.

 

[Kuroi Hadou]

Hermione wouldn't be as screwed as you'd think, to be honest. Out of the "Big Five," neither Herbology nor Potions require much wand work if at all, so those would probably be among Hermione's best. Neville would probably be better than her at Herbology though. Defense Against the Dark Arts would probably be the middle ground between Herbology/Potions and Charms/Transfiguration, since that one is half prior-preparation and half spellwork, but she's never going to beat Harry in that subject anyway. That leaves History of Magic and Astronomy from the core curriculum everyone has to take until their 5th Year, and there's also no indication of wand waving being involved in them. Arithmancy, Muggle Studies, Care for Magical Creatures, Divination, and Ancient Runes also don't seem to involve much actual casting at all. Charms and Transfiguration are really the only subjects she'd be completely screwed in.

Her efforts would be best focused on Herbology and Potions, since they do sort of go together. History of Magic and Astronomy she'd be best-off dropping after O.W.L.s. Arithmancy might help with the combined Herbology and Potions focus, since I imagine there's no small amount of it involved in the various recipes and soil ratios and climates and ideal harvesting time and whatnot. Muggle Studies is pretty pointless. Care for Magical Creatures you could make an argument for picking up as well, rolling that back into Herbology and Potions to know what to feed the animals and what to avoid, making ointments and medicines for them, etc. We already know Hermione's opinion on Divination. The only advantage I can see Ancient Runes having is being able to read outstandingly old spells no-one's bothered to translate.

Spell creation has the issue of her needing someone who's actually good at spells to be her guinea pig, so she can refine the spells over time. It's not nearly as effective if she can't do them herself, and one bad accident or error is all you need to deter both her and any willing volunteers to test her spells she might have had. She doesn't need to go the spell route, anyway. Hermione doesn't need to know how to wave a wand to be a great witch, it's just the route with the most immediately apparent gains.

 

[Yorae Rasante]

This makes me think of Familiar of Zero. Top Knowledge, Zero Practice.
Save Hermione would be Average Practice, which while not the best is far from poor.

Yeah, no.  Terrible comparison.  Louise's incapabilities were not from a lack of practice; her magic was literally sealed away so she could barely use it at all.

I thought it was just because her element wasn't compatible with most magics until she found it out?
But... It doesn't matter why for the comparison, just the results.
*Of cource, by practice I meant practical results, not the person practicing. Maybe there's the confusion?

The way people are talking, it seems like Hermione would have terrible practicals. But the idea was average practical ability. No worse than anyone normal but not spectacular. And still great in the theory.

Of course, if the idea is that she is good in theory but poor in practice then people are doing a good job, but I find this pushing down on the average because Harry and canon Hermione are a step above is just... I think the word is grating?

 

[nuclear death frog]

I thought of something. It was Hermione's precociousness which was the source of a lot of her being irritating at the beginning; if she hasn't had much luck making spells work on her own, she may not be so quick to show off and make herself known. That is, assuming she was even telling the truth about getting that early practice in canon; canon-Hermione has a habit of lying to get out of situations that are inconvenient. Perhaps this Hermione would not have helped Neville on the train-ride, just as one change. How would that influence Harry and Ron's opinion of her ... would she even be sorted into Gryffindor, for that matter? She got into Gryffindor in canon because of her desire to copy Dumbledore. Perhaps the Hat would place this Hermione in Ravenclaw where she might have fit in more.

I think there are a lot of things that would need to be thought over to do this idea justice.

 

[Rising Dragon]

This makes me think of Familiar of Zero. Top Knowledge, Zero Practice.
Save Hermione would be Average Practice, which while not the best is far from poor.

Yeah, no.  Terrible comparison.  Louise's incapabilities were not from a lack of practice; her magic was literally sealed away so she could barely use it at all.

I thought it was just because her element wasn't compatible with most magics until she found it out?
But... It doesn't matter why for the comparison, just the results.
*Of cource, by practice I meant practical results, not the person practicing. Maybe there's the confusion?

The way people are talking, it seems like Hermione would have terrible practicals. But the idea was average practical ability. No worse than anyone normal but not spectacular. And still great in the theory.

Of course, if the idea is that she is good in theory but poor in practice then people are doing a good job, but I find this pushing down on the average because Harry and canon Hermione are a step above is just... I think the word is grating?

Not really so for Louise's case.  I mean, yes, she isn't compatible with any of the elements taught, but her Void magic was still literally sealed away until she met Prince Wales and the two Ruby rings were exposed to each other.  Void magic in ZnT has a number of conditions to it.  One of them is that the Void Successor has to descend from Brimir himself, and right now that's limited to the royal bloodlines--which the Valliere family does have.  The other is that the magic is sealed and unlocked by exposure to the four Ruby rings--the Water Ruby, Wind Ruby, Earth Ruby, and Fire Ruby rings--which are each in the possession of four royal families throughout Halkeginia.

Louise's moniker of Zero was a result of lack of success, rather than a lack of effort.  If everyone knew what her spells would result in before she found her actual element, then clearly she put in plenty of effort--and thus produced plenty of explosions.

So comparing this hypothetical Hermione to Louise doesn't really work. This Hermione is average with magic--Louise was an abysmal failure until she gained her element.

As does comparing this hypothetical Hermione to Snape as the next "Half-Blood Prince".  Snape earned himself that simply because he did have natural talent in his chosen field--which this hypothetical version of Hermione would lack.

 

[Yorae Rasante]

What I meant for practice was more "in practice".
But yes, I am aware that this Hermione would just be average while Louise was an outright failure... but that's the problem I have with how everyone was acting, as if just not being among the best would mean she was among the worst. At least that's how I got the people's ideas.

Personally? I don't see that much difference. So Hermione is not the fanon can-do-everything. Besides learning earlier, which is not so much because she is better but because she learned the pronounciation and wand movements. So, the first canon change would be that she was unable to use... the protean charm, on order of the phoenix, if I remember well. Because Reparo and Alohomora were untaught in class, but still first year spells, and she read the books before the year started.

 

[Shirotsume]

Honestly, I think that around 5th year it would lead to a closer friendship with Harry.

For one thing, when she needs difficult spells- like the protean- cast, who is she gonna turn to? Probably the guy that mastered the patronous at 13. She's going to have to work a lot closer with him to get the things they need done, done, like the protean, the hex on the paperwork, all the warding they'll need for the horcrux hunt, the list goes on and on. And lets not forget Harry is a pretty good teacher too- she won't just be regurgitating spells at him, she'll be getting spellcasting tips as well.

And she's probably going to be a lot more reasonable about the whole Half Blood Prince thing, because she'll understand trying things differently from the generic, by-the-book way for things that are difficult for you.

 

[zerohour]

I could see her getting closer to Harry as time goes on.  "Those who can't do; teach" after all, and her pushing Harry to become a better wizard, especially since she won't be able to cast whatever spell the plot requires on demand.  Harry might have a bit more respect for her desire to study and learn when she isn't able to act as a crutch by casting the spell herself.

Might even lead to a scene where he gets screwed because he didn't practice the spell like she wanted to.  A hard lesson like that can accomplish more than a month of nagging.


It all comes down how she decides to handle her weaker skill set.  She's used to being the best academically, so when she doesn't have that, how will she handle it?  Will she end up like Snape, hoarding her discoveries to keep what little edge she has accumilated, will she share it out, accepting that she'll never be quite as good as everyone else, will she give up and go back to the normal world, where she CAN be the best?  All depends on how the author wants to take it, but whatever he choice, it's not going to be easy for her.  Either she ends up isolating herself, by keeping things from her friends or by giving up the magical world, or she has to throw away a fundamental part of herself to accept they new reality of being average.

Draco's words will cut deeper, because he IS demonstrably better than her at spell work.  Even Neville, who struggles with so many subjects, it going to do better than her sometimes.  Harry is likely to leave her in the dust in a number of cases, and Ron, well, I could see Ron trying to persuade her to give up on it, if only to avoid stressing herself into an early grave, and completely bungling the explanation behind it, probably by pointing out that his mother isn't very good as spellwork either, and accidentally saying something along the lines of "get back in the kitchen."



Clarification:  For the purpose of average, assuming she puts in as much effort as she does in canon, assume C- to C range for practicals, or 70-75% out of 100%.  Passing Grade would be D-, or 60%.  If she devotes everything to her schoolwork, ignoring friends social life, skipping a few meals here and there for extra time in the library, and so on, the best she can get is a B+.  Still good, but not what she is used to getting.

Herbology and Potions don't use wands, but they still have very obvious practical aspects to them.  Let's split the difference, and say she get B- to B grade work there (80-85%.)  Maybe the plants don't like her or Snape just likes to pick on her almost as much as Harry, but she still can't attain the excellence she's used to in them. Only in classwork only courses (History of Magic, possibly Astronomy, Runes, and Arithmancy) can she attain her canon grades.

 

[Shirotsume]

Nobody said she would be terrible at the practical, just at the wandwork. Potions and herbology would be fine.

 

[zerohour]

What if Hermione was, at best, average in magical talent?

She's still as smart as she ever was, but for some reason or another, her practical skills in magic are average at best.

Original idea was that she was average at everything that has practical applications, not just wandwork.  Next sentence kind of implies that it pertains to wandwork, but I didn't mean for that to be the case.  Still, potions and herbology don't really factor into the majority of the stories out there, so I guess we can let that go.

 

[AoMythology]

I find it unlikely that Hermione would be unable to follow the instructions in Potions books perfectly. If you're talking about her being unable to innovate in Potions - well, that's true in canon, too. So, still an 'Outstanding' in the OWLS.

Herbology and Care of Magical Creatures involve physical effort that doesn't suit Hermione well, but again, that's in canon too. Maybe it's slightly worse, enough to drop those two subjects into 'Exceeds Expectations' range?

 

[Shirotsume]

I would hardly say that deeming her 'of average magical talent' suddenly means she can't fucking read. Because that's literally what potions and herbology come down to.

Read 'do A'. THen, do A.

I could see where that might be an issue if A actually involved anything magical, but when A is literally 'stir clockwise 3 times' magic doesn't have a damn thing to do with it. As long as you actually bother to read the damn potions book before trying it, there's no reason you should do badly in potions.

 

[Rising Dragon]

Frankly speaking I'm not sure how this is sounding any different from canon Hermione. She was called a brilliant witch and such not because she was a prodigy, but simply because she was hyper-attentive in class to the point of obsession. There's nothing out there stating she was particularly gifted otherwise.

Getting an Outstanding in Potions? Exceeds Expectations in Herbology/Care of Magical Creatures? How is this any different from what she was normally like?

You guys want a truly average Hermione? Forget all this worthless bullshit about her grades or her capabilities. Focus on her behavior--that's where you'll turn her average. Until you deal with that, you're just wasting your own time with this subject.

 

[Prince Charon]

Frankly speaking I'm not sure how this is sounding any different from canon Hermione.  She was called a brilliant witch and such not because she was a prodigy, but simply because she was hyper-attentive in class to the point of obsession.  There's nothing out there stating she was particularly gifted otherwise.

Getting an Outstanding in Potions?  Exceeds Expectations in Herbology/Care of Magical Creatures?  How is this any different from what she was normally like?

You guys want a truly average Hermione?  Forget all this worthless bullshit about her grades or her capabilities.  Focus on her behavior--that's where you'll turn her average.  Until you deal with that, you're just wasting your own time with this subject.

AFAICT, it's not a matter of being average in general, it's a matter of having only average talent in magic, narrowed to 'in wandwork' by the discussion.


EDIT: On another note:

If you were a muggleborn experimenting with necromancy, and you wanted other muggleborns (or muggle-raised) to have a pretty good chance at guessing that your necromancy notebooks contained research on necromancy, without making it obvious to purebloods or most magically-raised half-bloods, what would you title the books? So far, what I've got is 'use variants on "Frankenstein" for the author credit,' and one possible title: 'Experiments in Inanimate-to-Animate Transfiguration, by Franklin Stein,' if I (or Hermione, or perhaps someone from around Lily's generation or earlier) were indeed trying to transfigure dead bodies into live ones (there should probably be a reason why that either would not work, or would not work right, but canon doesn't give a clear one that I can find - maybe one of the Exceptions to Gamp's Law? My thought on it is that you get virtual intelligences like portraits, if you try it on a sophont, and if magical, their magic either doesn't work at all, or doesn't work quite as it did in life).

 

[Rising Dragon]

Frankly speaking I'm not sure how this is sounding any different from canon Hermione.  She was called a brilliant witch and such not because she was a prodigy, but simply because she was hyper-attentive in class to the point of obsession.  There's nothing out there stating she was particularly gifted otherwise.

Getting an Outstanding in Potions?  Exceeds Expectations in Herbology/Care of Magical Creatures?  How is this any different from what she was normally like?

You guys want a truly average Hermione?  Forget all this worthless bullshit about her grades or her capabilities.  Focus on her behavior--that's where you'll turn her average.  Until you deal with that, you're just wasting your own time with this subject.

AFAICT, it's not a matter of being average in general, it's a matter of having only average talent in magic, narrowed to 'in wandwork' by the discussion.

But how do you gauge average talent in wandwork?  For one, it's just motions.  It's hard to excel in physical motions; she was good at it because she paid attention.  What is it afterwards?  Willpower?  Intent?  Frankly, it's there that talent tends to come in, with how Harry was talented in DADA spells, and the Disarmament Charm.  He was good at combat, with a preference for a single spell.  Hermione?  She displays no more talent than most other witches or wizards.

It's not like potions, where there's so many different techniques you can do instead to cut corners or make a potion better, like Snape did.

And if it is willpower and intent, you go straight back to what I was saying before, needing to adjust Hermione's behavior and personality.  Frankly speaking, as far as magic goes... as far as wandwork goes, as far as spellcasting goes... Hermione is ALREADY average.  She stands out on having a brilliant mind, though--because she studies to the point of obsession.  And even then, that's as far as she takes it--she doesn't experiment or innovate like Snape did.

So frankly all of you guys have been arguing in the wrong direction about the wrong attributes.  Focus on how she is as a person, and change those, and then you'll find what you're after.

If, y'know, I haven't just disabused y'all of the point.