Marvel-verse/DC-verse+To Aru Majutsu

ttestagr · Oct 17, 2010

I generally wouldn't want to get involved in this argument, but above leeyiankun highlights a response about the Heart of the Universe and then proceeds to compare IB and the UN completely ignoring GH's main statement that he himself highlighted.

He specifically asks how it can be proven, so I'll do that now. The person with the HotU has the power of author fiat. That is the point of The One Above All and why it consistently is presented in the form of the creators of Marvel Universe. It is not an in-universe hack. Anything on that level is literally the author saying he wants this to happen, and TOAA, THotU, or the Living Tribunal if neither of those is in play doing it regardless of what is going on in the story.

leeyiankun · Oct 17, 2010

ttestagr said:

A character's power will never trumps an author's power. That is true. So...

Splendid, bravo, and utterly shows how low Marvel can get. I absolutely applaud the git who thought this up. :sweat2: :yay:

So, If I want to see Doom wearing a Tutu and hold a speech, announcing his support for McDonold as the greatest food evar?. Denounce violence, and dissolve his country. I can do that and still sell the comic to the mass blobs they called a fan-base?

Wow.. that is totally cool. :yay:

A Curious Stranger · Oct 17, 2010

You could certainly try but then a later author would just call Doombot or AU in which we see the real Doom come in and kick ass. Because while only a single TOAA may be shown, there are of course, multiple writers in Marvel. So I think New Canon outrules Old Canon.

Aegis · Oct 18, 2010

A Curious Stranger said:

Soooo

Original Source<Possible Fanwanking?

ttestagr · Oct 18, 2010

No. Thanks to the length they've been around and the large number of writers, the best canon policy I've seen is consistency of feats. Not new>old. That doesn't work too well since things get reretconned all the time.

Ryuugi · Oct 18, 2010

ttestagr said:

And sometimes the writers don't even bother trying to make it subtle. Superboy-Prime's Retcon Punch comes to mind.

GenocideHeart · Oct 18, 2010

To be fair, Marvel has six decades of material to sort through, so its continuity being a mess makes sense.

That said, yeah, the Heart of the Universe is literally author fiat, as is The One Above All. It is basically 'No, fuck you, I am the author and whatever I say goes' given to whoever is holding it at the time - complete and utter omnipotence through author backing. That's why I'm saying not even Touma's power can beat it. It is the comics equivalent of playing a royal flush - all you can do is drop your pants and lube up.

Dr. Doom knows something about it - he tried to steal it off Thanos and got literally retconned out of reality for his troubles with a stray thought from the Titan. He got better later (Thanos undid everything he did), but still...

Aegis · Oct 18, 2010

How in the fuck did we stray from the main topic to author fiat and retcons?

GenocideHeart · Oct 18, 2010

ADD Kyuubi Naruto said:

Easy, we strayed there because Marvel is made up for 99.9% of just those. It's impossible to talk about Marvel without retcons not being at least mentioned.

Aegis · Oct 18, 2010

GenocideHeart said:

I get that some stuff needs to be mentioned but should we try to get back on topic?

Well, in a(n) (foolish maybe?) attempt to get back on track, I'll pose the following:

What are possible groups in either DC or Marvel that the ToAru-verse would be best at interacting with?

Keeping in mind that I do plan to let Imagine Breaker keep on developing and evolving as the story progresses and as I read the novels.

What villains from ToAru will make the best of Transfers? What Heroes? What Anti-Heroes? Which Lolis?

Also, yes Index is damn scary, you know you're fucked when:

And for anyone who likes seeing Accelerator get his shit beaten in, picture the following(minus obvious details)

GenocideHeart · Oct 19, 2010

Low to mid level teams, if you ask me. Runaways, the junior X-Men teams (although some, like the one led by Surge that managed to repel freaking Nimrod, are scary in their own right - even heavily damaged and half-hacked, Nimrod is a monstrous opponent), the Sinister Six, possibly the Intelligencia - although M.O.D.O.K. is a giant threat in that one, since he's basically Accelerator - his brain can compute faster than any computer, and he could keep track of up to 65 million variables at one time without visible strain. And that's not getting into his 'I kill you with my fucking mind' abilities... And be thankful Doctor Doom is no longer part of it...

Keep them away from the big guns. They have simply too much experience at horribly raping supposedly dangerous enemies.

leeyiankun · Oct 19, 2010

If he interact with the magical community? He can dance with the big boys with no problem. DC's The book of Magic series are considered quite a pond to play in. He can travel with The stranger, and well... meet stranger people, I guess.

Don't see him fitting in with the normal crowd. Not without serious backup at least, he's not BATMAN yet. :huh.:

A Curious Stranger · Oct 19, 2010

Shit dude, from what I've seen, getting involved with magic seems like a really really bad idea.

Like, it's fine to go see Dr. Strange or Fate for advice but him showing up personally at your doorstep because he needs your help? Fuck, I think I'd rather shoot myself.

Those are the guys that deal with Cosmic level crap no one wants to deal with. And I thought that we're trying to avoid confrontations between the Imagine Breaker and high class magics/powers if only so we can avoid the massive flame wars that would ensue.

He could hang out with the X-men without a doubt and some of the more tech based settings like the Fantastic Four. On the DC side, I think JSA would be the best bet. Those guys have dangerous enemies to be sure, but they could easily protect him and help develop Touma's skills.

Just a bit of advice though. No Teen Titans. The way things are going, I don't expect anyone to leave that series alive with the exception of Robin.

Aegis · Oct 19, 2010

leeyiankun said:

Although if Touma brings a certain magical nun along she'll spend her time mind-raping any magic using enemies. Hell Fear isn't the kind of shit you laugh about

GenocideHeart · Oct 19, 2010

ADD Kyuubi Naruto said:

...more wanking? Sigh.

75% of the magic users in Marvel are the kind that blinks and WARPS THE UNIVERSE, retconning entire powersets out of reality. Just look at Scarlet Witch (whose House of M mess depowered several dozen people by retroactively making it so either they never acquired them or never even existed to begin with), and her Chaos magic is actually pretty low on the magic totem pole (she is channeling a tiny fraction of the elder god Chthon's power, for the record - Chthon is a couple dozen magnitudes stronger, being on the same level as Cyttorak and the like).

Saying she'd mindrape beings who make mortals' sanity collapse just by BEING THERE is such a massive stretch it's almost sad. And that's essentially what you suggested, since most magic users, I'd like to repeat myself, are the kind who can annihilate the ToAru cast with a fart.

A small list of beings that declaredly use magic: Chthon, all Eighth Day Gods, Zvilpogghua (who also happens to be a bona fide Lovecraftian Outer God, if an immature one), Dormammu, Mephisto and other Limbo demons, Magik (who, to be fair, spends more time violently sundering souls apart with that blade of hers nowadays as opposed to casting spells, who isn't magical, by the way - it's a spiritual projection of her soul), the Shadow King, Legion (at least ten of his 500+ personalities have magic powers, and they are backed up by non-magic using ones that are even worse)... Basically, if it can use magic in Marvel, it's the kind of person you want to STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM, not poorly attempt to mindrape.

leeyiankun · Oct 19, 2010

GenocideHeart said:

Well, actually warping reality and the universe is what Angels does (and AIM users does on a limited scale).

I'm getting the impression that you haven't seen much of To Aru at all.

Even moderate AIM users such as Kuroko fucks up dimension to 11th to do simple Teleporting. Unlike Marvel & DC powers where it is pulled from the anus of authors, To Aru powers are grounded in Reality bending. Science, or Magical, it's the one thing they have in common. That's why Accelerator loses most of his powers when he got a bullet to the head. Harder to do insane calculation when you have a constant headache after all.

Fanwank? Pot, this is kettle. Meh.

GenocideHeart said:

Fiamma of the right will want to have words with you. :rofl:

ttestagr · Oct 19, 2010

If you have to do calculations, then their magic is to scientific to match up to Marvel's or DC's. Batman hates magic because it shits all over his core values. Marvel is worse because the cosmics just have more power and abilities, and magic is a pretty major key to the attention and level of cosmics. You have a few characters that have tech so advanced that it is mistaken for magic, but they pale when compared to the real thing.

GenocideHeart · Oct 19, 2010

leeyiankun said:

Dude. Wanda's own reality warping was causing the entire omniverse - in other words all the millions of different universes and dimensions that make up Marvel - to break apart and be swallowed up in a chaos singularity.

Consider there's at least 2 million confirmed universes in the Marvel omniverse.

Wanda, a low-level chaos magic user, endangered them all in one fell swoop with a single retcon. At least 25 different universes were outright wiped off the face of reality before she put everything on Earth-616 back in place, and the only reason why the singularity didn't destroy Earth-616 as well is because Meggan, a heavily magical being herself, sacrificed her life to stop it from reaching the 616verse.

Not only that, the mess was serious enough that the Living Tribunal showed up on the doorstep of Roma, the Earth-multiverse's guardian, and explicitly told her to fix the mess or he'd fix it himself - permanently. The Tribunal previously showed up like that only when the fabric of the omniverse itself was threatened, so you know the shit Wanda caused was serious.

Now consider there's dozens of magic users who make her look like the puny weakling she really is when it comes to magical might...

EDIT: That said, the Living Tribunal himself specifically stated once that the 616-verse is the single biggest pain in the ass he'd ever dealt with. He more or less stated the only reason why he hasn't wiped the annoyance out already is because TOAA forbids it.

Also, just because ToAru powers are grounded in reality bending and calculations doesn't make them any more valid. In fact, it makes them less magic, because magic, by definition, is about doing the impossible and being unexplainable. Magic is, more accurately, the power of belief - which is why so many mythos have magic be significantly weaker when used by or on someone who doesn't really believe in it. You can't 'calculate' true magic. The one in ToAru is what I'd define protomagic - a mix of mystical powers and scientific method, more versatile than either, but not decisively superior. As proved by how crude tech like a gun can still pwn most of the ToAru cast simply due to it being effective and nothing fancy... just ask Accelerator. :rofl:

leeyiankun · Oct 19, 2010

No, it's superior because it isn't broken yet. Not like Marvel & DC, where asspull is the norm & retcon are what saves their profits. Writing power trumps power this and that is what I hated in DBZ. To Aru isn't at Marvel/DC or DBZ levels of stupidity yet.

Seriously, can you even take Marvel & DC seriously? If the whole thing is serious, there'd be no returning from the dead, no retcon, and ENDINGS. The fact that they're still able to milk this after 70yrs, is because of the fans keep lapping it up. :headbanger:

And, reality bending is an explanation from the science side of To Aru. Which shows you don't really know what you're talking about at all.

GenocideHeart · Oct 19, 2010

Are you even listening? My point is that magic SHOULDN'T be something science can explain. They should be opposite sides of the coin. Science covering the explainable, magic the unexplainable.

The mere fact that magic can be explained in any way by science and one can run calculations off it makes it very hard for me to take ToAru magic seriously. It tries to give that which can't and shouldn't be explained an explanation. That's not cool - it ruins the allure of magic, which is to do the impossible in a way that can't be explained, only accepted.

And yes, in case you are wondering, I find human tendency to try to explain everything in scientific terms very arrogant. There are some things that just aren't meant to be, and explaining magic in scientific terms is one such thing. That may be why I automatically consider ToAru magic as inferior to most other types of magic. If you can explain it, it isn't true magic.

If the whole thing was serious, there'd be no magic and fancy superpowers either. It's fantasy. Fantasy, by definition, implies suspension of disbelief. If you want everything to be dark, grim, SRIZ BIZNESS, stop reading fiction and start living real life. You'll get your fill of no returning from the dead, no retconning and ENDINGS from just LIVING.

You are entirely looking at the wrong genre if you are looking for this kind of sriz bizness in a genre that, by definition, is made to escape from reality.

Also, I don't want to hear that spiel on not returning from the dead from a manga and anime fan. They are just as bad at making death stick as Marvel, Marvel just had more time to do it, which is what gives the impression it's worse - there's MORE of that crap, but comparatively, given the amount of material it has, death is a sparse affair.

DC, now... every now and then they perform a mass-reset where everyone dies, and if you read Blackest Night, you'd realize how MANY heroes died and stayed dead. There's a whole cemetery dedicated to them...

leeyiankun · Oct 19, 2010

GenocideHeart said:

So to you, <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man:_One_More_Day' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>ONE MORE DAY</a> is legit. And that's just one of the recent asspull that keep popping up in comicdom.

To Aru anime season I is a bad place to start an opinion of the magic side. Because the events were covered in later volumes, I would suggest you read the novels to get a better grip on it. If you have read it, you'd see why I keep saying that you don't know what you're talking about.

After seeing the stuff that Marvel/DC put out, I must conclude that it was written by the same levels of wierdness that lurks AA/UBE, in both consistency and plot.
I'd like my fantasy to be more consistent and better written. And Magic? Well, Neil Gaiman's Book of Magic was quite good, until later authors shows up and trashed it.

Seeing promising series getting buttrape from inconsistent writing all the time, I realize that comics shouldn't be taken seriously AT ALL. Not when there's always another guy around the corner to F*ck it all up.

BTW, your read must have consist of Sailormoon/YYH/DBZ or the likes? You need to expand it, my friend.

GenocideHeart · Oct 19, 2010

Now you are putting fucking words in my mouth.

One More Day IS legit... in how it was executed. Which is to say, retcon of past events through magic. Mephisto IS, after all, the Devil and powerful enough to tangle with Odin. Makes sense his magic would be powerful enough to do it.

Now, whether this is a GOOD PLOT? That's a different story. A shitty plot is a shitty plot, but it has nothing to do with the plot device used. Magic IS indeed a good justification for causing a butterfly effect from the past that changes several decades of character growth, even if the particular REASON why it was done was idiotic.

There's a difference. If you can't tell the difference between a valid plot device and a valid plot, I have nothing more to tell you, because I can't be arsed to bring out the elementary school diagrams to expose to you what the obvious difference is.

Christopher Robin · Oct 19, 2010

Wasn't ToAru magic invented to make up for not being an esper? They even use the same part of the brain, which is why you can't be an magic-using esper. Except that one guy, whose esper power is not having his head explode from using magic.

GenocideHeart · Oct 19, 2010

By the way, there is one biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig difference between Marvel and any Japanese series.

Marvel is a composite world.

You may be too young to know this, but Marvel used to be different comics in separate world. Originally, each hero had his or her own world, and there was no interaction between them. Cap lived in one world, Human Torch I in another, Hulk in yet another...

Then Marvel decided to make all its series happen on the same planet.

In Japanese terms, the closest thing is the Super Robot Taisen series, and if you ever played it, you'll remember how messy trying to make sense of say, a Gundam somehow outfighting a Biomachine Beast from Mazinger is.

The equivalent of Marvel in Japan would be, say, me taking City Hunter, Bleach and Patlabor, and trying to make them all happen on the same planet. I'd have to take different heroes from different, often clashing settings, and try to mesh them in a way that doesn't result in a total fuckup.

Needless to say, it's not as easy as it sounds when the series aren't even by the same authors. There's been a few manga and anime crossovers in history, but the only ones that had actual success were either slapstick comedies OR by the same author (who knew both series inside out and knew how to mix them just right).

In light of that, the fact Marvel managed to make a cohesive universe from a bunch of different, once-separated series is nothing short of amazing. However, with several series running parallel to each other, inconsistencies are inevitable. Authors don't always have the luxury to doublecheck their info, what with deadlines looming and all...

Aegis · Oct 19, 2010

Christopher Robin said:

No, magic came before that. Also to even cast magic in ToAru you have to be a magician, or else you get shafted worse once your spellwork fails.

Anyways

@GH- It's not fanwanking. Considering the dangers of reading a single original grimmoire in the ToAru-verse and taking into account that Index has literally read well over a hundred thousand of these original texts. Texts which btw, kill people. This isn't willy nilly magic that anyone with enough practice can do. Index is quite easily the strongest magical user in this series and the only thing holding her back is the fact that she doesn't even know she CAN use magic! Instead she gets away with fighting magicians using these two:

Now, the second spell would be fucking useless without the right knowledge, but Index knows fucking EVERYTHING about magic. And for your Eldritch horrors in the Marvel-verse, they're present in the ToAru-verse too, take a look.

Index's potential as a character is only limited by how much the author googles magic texts. They can be literally any text and it won't matter, with 103,000 grimoires inside her head, they won't run out of ideas any time soon. Also keep in mind that a single look inside one text is enough to fuck just about anyone else, even most current magicians over. The BOOKS mind rape you. Here, read a bit.

(Ha! I knew it! Learning DOES kill!)

Marvel-verse/DC-verse+To Aru Majutsu

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