Naruto Naruto Canon Tweaks
- Thread starter Knyght
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I have to agree that you guys are completely dicking up what the Neji/Naruto fight was about.
Both had seals that caused them grief.
Neji wallowed in his grief, raged against it, but in the end that was all he did- he bitched about it.
He stopped in his fight to whine instead of win- as he does, and he lost for it.
Naruto wallowed in the shit fate dealt with him, raged against it with pranks, but in the end, he takes what could have been a hand of shit and turns it into a pocketful of Aces.
That's the difference. Fate gave both a shitty hand to start with, but from there it was up to them.
Neji did nothing but whine, and so he lost the game of life.
Naruto took that losing hand, punched you in the dick and stole a full house from you.
My point is, Naruto got dealt a shitty hand that could have led to a shitty life or he could do everything he ever wanted with it- and he pulled it off motherfucking magnificently.
Neji got dealt a shitty hand and dealt the worst way possible. What if he garnered Hinata's support earlier? Bolstered her chances, maybe even sabotaged Hanabi? Neji is a huge reason for Hinata's crippling shyness, Hinata could have been the set, locked in heir years before she was, started helping her gather political power and completely eradicated the caged bird seal practice.
There's so much he could have done, but he threw it all away because he bitched instead of acting.
EDIT: I'm not trying to say, mind you, that you can always win no matter what hand you get dealt. I'm just saying that, in this instance, Neji's hand had a hell of a lot of promise- the privileged son of a major clan power in one of the strongest villages, massively talented with the skill to back it up?
There are people who would lie, cheat, steal, or sell their soul for a chance like that.
Both had seals that caused them grief.
Neji wallowed in his grief, raged against it, but in the end that was all he did- he bitched about it.
He stopped in his fight to whine instead of win- as he does, and he lost for it.
Naruto wallowed in the shit fate dealt with him, raged against it with pranks, but in the end, he takes what could have been a hand of shit and turns it into a pocketful of Aces.
That's the difference. Fate gave both a shitty hand to start with, but from there it was up to them.
Neji did nothing but whine, and so he lost the game of life.
Naruto took that losing hand, punched you in the dick and stole a full house from you.
My point is, Naruto got dealt a shitty hand that could have led to a shitty life or he could do everything he ever wanted with it- and he pulled it off motherfucking magnificently.
Neji got dealt a shitty hand and dealt the worst way possible. What if he garnered Hinata's support earlier? Bolstered her chances, maybe even sabotaged Hanabi? Neji is a huge reason for Hinata's crippling shyness, Hinata could have been the set, locked in heir years before she was, started helping her gather political power and completely eradicated the caged bird seal practice.
There's so much he could have done, but he threw it all away because he bitched instead of acting.
EDIT: I'm not trying to say, mind you, that you can always win no matter what hand you get dealt. I'm just saying that, in this instance, Neji's hand had a hell of a lot of promise- the privileged son of a major clan power in one of the strongest villages, massively talented with the skill to back it up?
There are people who would lie, cheat, steal, or sell their soul for a chance like that.
But those were skills Sasuke learned during the TS. And the WS only really gave him some mild regen, IIRC.
And I disagree about the MS jutsu. I prefer Tsukuyomi as an Itachi only jutsu, and while I appreaciate the Indra-Madara-Sasuke parrelles, I kind of like the idea they had different MS jutsu - It reinforces that they are different people, even if they share a divine bond
And I disagree about the MS jutsu. I prefer Tsukuyomi as an Itachi only jutsu, and while I appreaciate the Indra-Madara-Sasuke parrelles, I kind of like the idea they had different MS jutsu - It reinforces that they are different people, even if they share a divine bond
I'm inclined to think otherwise. The only thing he ever did with snakes when Orochimaru wasn't inside him, before and after, was summon Aoda. He never again uses the hidden snake hands, binding snake spell or Orochimaru-style body replacement and his summoning tatto vanished after the battle with Itachi. I know he favours his MS after this point but I find it hard to believe that he would choose not to ever use any of them again in his future battles if he was still able.
Though there might be a middle ground where he only lost the body replacement and tattoo which aren't quite standard abilities unlike the other two snake jutsu.
Did I say Indra? I meant Madara's brother, Izuna. We never learn what their MS jutsu are, so I wouldn't really mind what they had as long as they had something and it was seen in action.
Though there might be a middle ground where he only lost the body replacement and tattoo which aren't quite standard abilities unlike the other two snake jutsu.
Did I say Indra? I meant Madara's brother, Izuna. We never learn what their MS jutsu are, so I wouldn't really mind what they had as long as they had something and it was seen in action.
I think Hidan should have made an appearance in the Shinobi World War arc. It would be easy enough to justify, his fellow cultists just dig him up while the Nara clan is off to war and couldn't spare anyone to guard Hidan's prison. If every other member of Akatsuki gets to return then it's a little unfair Hidan got left out, and it would have given him a chance to show off all the scythe techniques Kishimoto mentioned in an interview that he never got to use in canon.
Mostly I just really want to see the look on Shikamaru's face when Hidan shows up at the worst possible time screaming for his blood and bringing a posse of his death cultist buddies as backup.
Mostly I just really want to see the look on Shikamaru's face when Hidan shows up at the worst possible time screaming for his blood and bringing a posse of his death cultist buddies as backup.
I'd have given back Sasori's hundred puppets. What's the point in a reviving a master puppeteer without any of his puppets, including himself? Considering the Gold and Silver Brothers had their sacred tools and the Seven Mist Swordsmen had their blades, it wouldn't have been a huge stretch for him to revive with his puppets intact even if they were broken originally. Even giving him some regular puppets would have been fine, though I'm sure he still had other puppets left over when he died in the first place but ignored them in favour of the hundred.
Orochimaru/Kabuto actually collected the Seven Swords and armed the zombies though, they didn't revive with them. And presumably the Sacred Tools were also stolen in order to give them to the reanimated Gold and Silver Brothers. Although that doesn't really counter your point, if Orochimaru and Kabuto had the resources to steal a dozen or so Legendary tools and weapons then surely they could have also recovered Sasori's hundred puppets after his death or raided one of his old stashes.
Having Kurama wasn't really an "advantage" for most of the manga, considering that at any time the fox could've said "LOLNO" and then Naruto couldn't get to use any of that awesome chakra. After all, Naruto never really learned how to tap on it on his own, it was always having the Kyuubi give it to him.
And really, despite the mentioned drawback, is it really any different then being born with Hax eyes? Or an elemental release blood line or what have you? Irrelevant, ultimately, you're born/given the gifts you have whether you want them or not (Be it a blood line or a demon in your gut). Saying one is better then the other doesn't really fit, as in the case of Kurama it was a tug-o-war with hefty downsides until they manage to bro up, or saying Neji was born superior to Sasuke simply because said Uchiha had to awaken and mature said bloodline where Neji had his from the moment he was taught to activate it.
Some various tweaks to Part 1 that came to me:
The name of the Hidden Sound would actually be the Hidden Grass. Kusa is a borderline non-entity so removing the original would make little difference and I think it works better thematically. The name would symbolize Orochimaru's connection to Konoha and it matches his snake theme without being overt. For the second test, Orochimaru could disguise himself as a competitor from a different village or take the place of his one of his men.
The Grass Five doesn't sound as good though. Perhaps a new group name in reference to the unexplained North/South/East/West Gate theme they had...
Karin would be a member of the team sent to fight Sasuke, serving as an early introducton, and watching kick ass in the exams would be what attracts her to him in the first place.
After Dosu's death, Gaara's match is changed so that he's fighting Sasuke in the last match of the first round. The match doesn't have to be postponed with Sasuke seriously stealing the spotlight with his preferential treatment and dramatic entrance. Instead he and Kakashi are already at the match and actually see Naruto fight Neji.
When Shikamaru captures Temari with his shadow, he walks up to her and holds a kunai to her throat. Since she doesn't carry a weapons pouch, he's declared the victor. Then he just forfeits the tournament.
Yuugao doesn't visit Hayate's memorial during the invasion or afterwards which are the only times she ever appears in the manga. Her existence held little-to-no purpose, in my opinion.
When Hiruzen fights against Orochimaru, he realises that the resurrected Hokages are only at half-strength and that Orochimaru couldn't fight all out himself because he was controlling them at the same time. This to make it clear to the readers that none of the fighters are in their best condition which had long been misleading.
Hashirama is introduced as the God of Shinobi and the strongest Hokage, avoiding the need to retroactively glorify him during the fourth war at the expense of the other Hokages. Tobirama would mention that the jutsu he had invented was now being used against them and their village. Orochimaru doesn't understand why he couldn't summon the Fourth Hokage but Hiruzen does.
After Orochimaru stole Genyumaru's body to protect himself from a slow death, he is infuriated when he realises that he still couldn't use hand-seals and decided that he would need to discover a way to restore his soul.
Sasuke doesn't manage to stab Naruto with Chidori, stopped in his tracks as Naruto draws on the Kyuubi's chakra. He still intended to kill Naruto but without actually causing the grievous wound from canon, he doesn't lose as much sympathy and makes Naruto's desire to save him easier difficult to empathize with.
The name of the Hidden Sound would actually be the Hidden Grass. Kusa is a borderline non-entity so removing the original would make little difference and I think it works better thematically. The name would symbolize Orochimaru's connection to Konoha and it matches his snake theme without being overt. For the second test, Orochimaru could disguise himself as a competitor from a different village or take the place of his one of his men.
The Grass Five doesn't sound as good though. Perhaps a new group name in reference to the unexplained North/South/East/West Gate theme they had...
Karin would be a member of the team sent to fight Sasuke, serving as an early introducton, and watching kick ass in the exams would be what attracts her to him in the first place.
After Dosu's death, Gaara's match is changed so that he's fighting Sasuke in the last match of the first round. The match doesn't have to be postponed with Sasuke seriously stealing the spotlight with his preferential treatment and dramatic entrance. Instead he and Kakashi are already at the match and actually see Naruto fight Neji.
When Shikamaru captures Temari with his shadow, he walks up to her and holds a kunai to her throat. Since she doesn't carry a weapons pouch, he's declared the victor. Then he just forfeits the tournament.
Yuugao doesn't visit Hayate's memorial during the invasion or afterwards which are the only times she ever appears in the manga. Her existence held little-to-no purpose, in my opinion.
When Hiruzen fights against Orochimaru, he realises that the resurrected Hokages are only at half-strength and that Orochimaru couldn't fight all out himself because he was controlling them at the same time. This to make it clear to the readers that none of the fighters are in their best condition which had long been misleading.
Hashirama is introduced as the God of Shinobi and the strongest Hokage, avoiding the need to retroactively glorify him during the fourth war at the expense of the other Hokages. Tobirama would mention that the jutsu he had invented was now being used against them and their village. Orochimaru doesn't understand why he couldn't summon the Fourth Hokage but Hiruzen does.
After Orochimaru stole Genyumaru's body to protect himself from a slow death, he is infuriated when he realises that he still couldn't use hand-seals and decided that he would need to discover a way to restore his soul.
Sasuke doesn't manage to stab Naruto with Chidori, stopped in his tracks as Naruto draws on the Kyuubi's chakra. He still intended to kill Naruto but without actually causing the grievous wound from canon, he doesn't lose as much sympathy and makes Naruto's desire to save him easier difficult to empathize with.
Well, I feel like that was the moment where a lot of people gave up on Sasuke, if not just started hating him entirely. And they they start disliking Naruto for trying to save the friend that nearly succeeded in killing him and would have made any regular person take a hint. Since Naruto not giving up on him and Sasuke's redemption was inevitable, I feel like altering that scenario would make those circumstances more desirable or at least more understandable.
And it doesn't change the rest of what Sasuke had done in that arc or what he will do in Part 2 which takes him done a rather unsympathetic road anyway. So I guess I thought it was too much, too soon?
Edit: Or was it that you appreciated that Naruto was willing to go so far even after Sasuke had Chidori'd him? That Naruto still thought he was worth saving. 'Cause I could understand that.
And it doesn't change the rest of what Sasuke had done in that arc or what he will do in Part 2 which takes him done a rather unsympathetic road anyway. So I guess I thought it was too much, too soon?
Edit: Or was it that you appreciated that Naruto was willing to go so far even after Sasuke had Chidori'd him? That Naruto still thought he was worth saving. 'Cause I could understand that.
Honestly, most of those people would still throw Sasuke under a bus given all his part 2 stunts and maybe even without them.
Naruto not giving up even though Sasuke nearly trying to kill him is one of those things that make him, well, Naruto.
What was missing were more friendship scenes between the two (and between everyone to be honest. Downtime would have really helped Naruto), but that would no longer be a small tweak.
To answer your edit: yes.
Naruto not giving up even though Sasuke nearly trying to kill him is one of those things that make him, well, Naruto.
What was missing were more friendship scenes between the two (and between everyone to be honest. Downtime would have really helped Naruto), but that would no longer be a small tweak.
To answer your edit: yes.
I agree with most of those proposed Part 1 tweaks, but I think it is unnecessary to remove Hidden Grass altogether. It would be simpler to just change Karin to member of a second Sound genin team that failed the second test. I agree that it probably would be a better thematic fit for Orochimaru to found the Hidden Grass village, but I just like the name Hidden Sound better. Although it would be nice if there was some mention of what motivated Orochimaru to give his village that name, it seems kind of random and unconnected to him.
I would probably just remove the empty third coffin from the Orochimaru vs. Hiruzen battle instead of trying to justify it. It created a plot hole when Kabuto later revealed that the coffins aren't used to summon the zombies directly from the afterlife, they are just a method of storing the zombies away when they aren't needed and deploying them to battlefield. The zombies are actually created by a huge sealing array stored on a scroll. Which implied that Orochimaru knowingly summoned an empty coffin for no reason, since he should have realized that he couldn't revive Minato when he performed the sacrificial ritual prior to the battle and nothing happened.
I also wouldn't remove Yuugao. I agree that she served no real purpose, but I'd rather fix that problem by giving her a purpose than cutting her. A post timeskip mini-arc showing her either getting revenge on or making peace with her boyfriend's killer, Baki, would work well for that.
I would probably just remove the empty third coffin from the Orochimaru vs. Hiruzen battle instead of trying to justify it. It created a plot hole when Kabuto later revealed that the coffins aren't used to summon the zombies directly from the afterlife, they are just a method of storing the zombies away when they aren't needed and deploying them to battlefield. The zombies are actually created by a huge sealing array stored on a scroll. Which implied that Orochimaru knowingly summoned an empty coffin for no reason, since he should have realized that he couldn't revive Minato when he performed the sacrificial ritual prior to the battle and nothing happened.
I also wouldn't remove Yuugao. I agree that she served no real purpose, but I'd rather fix that problem by giving her a purpose than cutting her. A post timeskip mini-arc showing her either getting revenge on or making peace with her boyfriend's killer, Baki, would work well for that.
I think I once mentioned that the subject could have come up just before Gaara's speech, so I could roll with that. And it mean Baki actually shows up with the war since he was completely absent in canon.
Though I've been thinking that Yuugao's role could have been Anko's instead. She'd already been established and her history's entwined with Orochimaru, so having her lose her lover and want to get revenge for that might have felt a lot more meaningful. Only it would mean that Anko's getting put through the wringer if she loses someone to Orochimaru's schemes.
Didn't Kabuto mention there was only one Sound team? I would have just swapped her with Kin who was the least developed and least useful member of the team anyway, IIRC.
Edit: Then again, her acute chakra sensing could put a wrench in things since she'd notice Sasuke's chakra. And they weren't meant to know about his curse seal until it was too late. :hmm:
Though I've been thinking that Yuugao's role could have been Anko's instead. She'd already been established and her history's entwined with Orochimaru, so having her lose her lover and want to get revenge for that might have felt a lot more meaningful. Only it would mean that Anko's getting put through the wringer if she loses someone to Orochimaru's schemes.
Didn't Kabuto mention there was only one Sound team? I would have just swapped her with Kin who was the least developed and least useful member of the team anyway, IIRC.
Edit: Then again, her acute chakra sensing could put a wrench in things since she'd notice Sasuke's chakra. And they weren't meant to know about his curse seal until it was too late. :hmm:
Um, not to be rude, but what's it matter if Kabuto said there was only one Sound team? This is a thread about suggesting changes that would improve the manga without significantly altering the plot isn't it? Making Karin's team a second Sound team rather than (presumably) Sound-nin posing as a Grass team is about as significant of a change to canon as replacing Kin with Karin would be.
Although now I am somewhat intrigued by that suggestion, because I'm curious as to what jutsu and strategy Karin would use against Shikamaru. Assuming she doesn't just forfeit the match.
..Wait, actually, replacing Kin with Karin causes a minor problem. Orochimaru used Kin as the human sacrifice to revive Tobirama with Edo Tensei. He'd have to find a new sacrifice since Karin is too useful to throw away like that.
[edit] Also there is the issue of why exactly she was even at that chuunin exam in the first place. My headcanon is that Karin was using her sensing powers to guide Orochimaru around the forest so he could easily locate Anko and Sasuke and avoid the ANBU that were certainly searching for him. If she's instead on Zaku and Dosu's team she won't be available for that. There's also the fact that Dosu, Zaku and Kin were disposable and meant to test Sasuke's strength with the cursed seal. Orochimaru didn't even tell them about the cursed seal and didn't care if they got killed by him, and Karin is too valuable to let die for such a purpose.
Although now I am somewhat intrigued by that suggestion, because I'm curious as to what jutsu and strategy Karin would use against Shikamaru. Assuming she doesn't just forfeit the match.
..Wait, actually, replacing Kin with Karin causes a minor problem. Orochimaru used Kin as the human sacrifice to revive Tobirama with Edo Tensei. He'd have to find a new sacrifice since Karin is too useful to throw away like that.
[edit] Also there is the issue of why exactly she was even at that chuunin exam in the first place. My headcanon is that Karin was using her sensing powers to guide Orochimaru around the forest so he could easily locate Anko and Sasuke and avoid the ANBU that were certainly searching for him. If she's instead on Zaku and Dosu's team she won't be available for that. There's also the fact that Dosu, Zaku and Kin were disposable and meant to test Sasuke's strength with the cursed seal. Orochimaru didn't even tell them about the cursed seal and didn't care if they got killed by him, and Karin is too valuable to let die for such a purpose.
Having Karin take Kin's place seemed like a "simpler" change - and more beneficial one in the long run - to me than adding a second team which draws away the emphasis meant to be placed on Team Dosu. Semantics, really.
The Edo Tensei sacrifice could give an excuse to get official remove one of Kabuto's teammates who vanished without explanation. The one who lost to Sasuke could be sacrificed and the one who lost to Kankuro could just be killed by him since that was a brutal loss anyway.
But yeah, Karin's presence makes it out more complicated than I thought.
The Edo Tensei sacrifice could give an excuse to get official remove one of Kabuto's teammates who vanished without explanation. The one who lost to Sasuke could be sacrificed and the one who lost to Kankuro could just be killed by him since that was a brutal loss anyway.
But yeah, Karin's presence makes it out more complicated than I thought.
Just noticed this. I think that's objectively wrong. The chakra being at Kurama's discretion doesn't mean it wasn't an advantage when Naruto got it. And he got it, pretty much every time. Technically, even the possibility of getting that chakra is an advantage.
Where it gets subjective is considering whether the advantage of access to Kurama's chakra was worth the disadvantage that came with being the carrier of Kurama. But you can't deny that it did have that advantage of Kurama's chakra, which let Naruto do things he otherwise would not have been able to do, such as beat Neji.
Back to the original topic: I'd have liked to see less use of zombie no jutsu, or if it has to be used, make it more horrifying, with less incidents of the zombie coming across the exact person in the world needed to talk it into passing on peacefully. Actually, just remove the ability of zombies to pass on peacefully. Make every battle be one where the good ninjas become more and more emotionally drained as they are forced to kill their loved ones repeatedly, all the while the zombies are begging them for it as they relentlessly regenerate and attack. Create a sealing team or two whose sole job is to travel from battlefield to battlefield restraining these monstrosities.
Where it gets subjective is considering whether the advantage of access to Kurama's chakra was worth the disadvantage that came with being the carrier of Kurama. But you can't deny that it did have that advantage of Kurama's chakra, which let Naruto do things he otherwise would not have been able to do, such as beat Neji.
Back to the original topic: I'd have liked to see less use of zombie no jutsu, or if it has to be used, make it more horrifying, with less incidents of the zombie coming across the exact person in the world needed to talk it into passing on peacefully. Actually, just remove the ability of zombies to pass on peacefully. Make every battle be one where the good ninjas become more and more emotionally drained as they are forced to kill their loved ones repeatedly, all the while the zombies are begging them for it as they relentlessly regenerate and attack. Create a sealing team or two whose sole job is to travel from battlefield to battlefield restraining these monstrosities.
It is objectively wrong. When he was studying Naruto's jinchuuriki seal at the hot springs, Jiraiya noted that Minato designed the seal so that Kurama's chakra constantly slips out and mixes with Naruto's own chakra. Naruto may not have ever actively drawn out large amounts Kurama's chakra without his permission (until he won the chakra tug-of-war at the temple), but he's been using relatively small amounts of it for his entire life. In fact he is so used to using Kurama's chakra that when Orochimaru applied the Five Element Seal and blocked Kurama's chakra from mixing with Naruto's, his chakra control went to shit. Just removing the seal immediately fixed that issue.
So yeah, Naruto has benefited immensely from being a jinchuuriki, and would have even if Kurama had always told him LOLNO and refused to actively give him chakra. The seal mixing their chakra together automatically is likely the main reason Naruto even has such massive chakra reserves in the first place. Without Kurama he wouldn't be able to abuse Kage Bunshin so much.
[edit] Also yeah, an advantage that is conditional is still an advantage. Hoping the Kyuubi is in an agreeable mood and will give you some chakra is still loads better than not having a Kyuubi at all.
So yeah, Naruto has benefited immensely from being a jinchuuriki, and would have even if Kurama had always told him LOLNO and refused to actively give him chakra. The seal mixing their chakra together automatically is likely the main reason Naruto even has such massive chakra reserves in the first place. Without Kurama he wouldn't be able to abuse Kage Bunshin so much.
[edit] Also yeah, an advantage that is conditional is still an advantage. Hoping the Kyuubi is in an agreeable mood and will give you some chakra is still loads better than not having a Kyuubi at all.
Don't remove Grass: have Orochimaru take control of it, instead. Orochimaru taking control of an already existent hidden village makes more sense than Konoha welcoming a new hidden village without a scrupulous investigation of its leadership, ninja force, etc revealing anomalies.
Bonus of Kurama in the guts: Stamina, regeneration and chakra augmented to ridiculous levels
Malus of Kurama in the guts: people did their best to ignore him in his earlier life.
Note: Naruto's chakra control is NATURALLY bad. We are NEVER told it's because of Kurama. One might well exaggerate the point of Naruto's chakra control getting suddenly much better once Jiraiya unseals Kurama's chakra means it boosts even Naruto's chakra control.
Note2: I still believe a sizeable part of Naruto being dislike\ignored was BECAUSE his pranks. I SO wanted a scene where somebody points out they mostly hated\ignored Naruto because he was a little shit bothering and disrespecting everybody
Bonus of Kurama in the guts: Stamina, regeneration and chakra augmented to ridiculous levels
Malus of Kurama in the guts: people did their best to ignore him in his earlier life.
Note: Naruto's chakra control is NATURALLY bad. We are NEVER told it's because of Kurama. One might well exaggerate the point of Naruto's chakra control getting suddenly much better once Jiraiya unseals Kurama's chakra means it boosts even Naruto's chakra control.
Note2: I still believe a sizeable part of Naruto being dislike\ignored was BECAUSE his pranks. I SO wanted a scene where somebody points out they mostly hated\ignored Naruto because he was a little shit bothering and disrespecting everybody
I'm just going to have to point out that exactly 2 people moved on peacefully, one of whom was already defeated/incapacitated and the other I can't remember the status of.
Everyone else had to be beat down and sealed.
By the sealing teams whose sole purpose was to rove and restrain the weakened enemies.
Everyone else had to be beat down and sealed.
By the sealing teams whose sole purpose was to rove and restrain the weakened enemies.
Three by my count: Two moved on peacefully (sasori and sai's buddy), and Hanzo immobilized himself for a sealing team. 4 if you count Itachi (I don't, because that actually had some set up). It's still too many for my taste.
Asuma spent the fight calling out his own weaknesses as did a few others IIRC. For a technique that boasts absolute control, it just seems a bit too not horrifying.
Asuma spent the fight calling out his own weaknesses as did a few others IIRC. For a technique that boasts absolute control, it just seems a bit too not horrifying.