Naruto [Naruto] Update List
- Thread starter CatOnFire
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But he was awfully quick in answering Anko's throw random weapons at him challenge, and used a high speed technique despite him saying his wounds were hazardous (And this was actually from the bone thing that peirced him in the heart and not the side effects, though I guess you could argue they also play a factor). I'm not saying the story is bad overall though, I'm just saying this is a rush for power plot if I ever saw one. The only thing that redeems it is that it is actually written well, and uses quite a few interesting plot twists (Though Temari's death was stupid and over the top).
And in regards to the mind control aspect, it has been documented when achieving Level 2 naturally, but Nintendokid has raised an argument that it may be a translation error. However it was on Leaf Ninja, and Tayuya deliberately says it in the manga, though there has never actually been a clear case of it actually being used by Orochimaru, though I think that's just because Kishimoto hasn't been able to fit it in yet. Either that or it's a plot hole.
There is a redeeming factor to the story though. I've always been a large advocate of Orochimaru not screwing around with Naruto (Attempted murder nonwithstanding because that was just stupid) because the Akatsuki could come and track him down for more reasons than just betraying them, and he actually uses it. That's probably the only reason I will finish this story to the end.
But he was awfully quick in answering Anko's throw random weapons at him challenge, and used a high speed technique despite him saying his wounds were hazardous (And this was actually from the bone thing that peirced him in the heart and not the side effects, though I guess you could argue they also play a factor). I'm not saying the story is bad overall though, I'm just saying this is a rush for power plot if I ever saw one. The only thing that redeems it is that it is actually written well, and uses quite a few interesting plot twists (Though Temari's death was stupid and over the top).
And in regards to the mind control aspect, it has been documented when achieving Level 2 naturally, but Nintendokid has raised an argument that it may be a translation error. However it was on Leaf Ninja, and Tayuya deliberately says it in the manga, though there has never actually been a clear case of it actually being used by Orochimaru, though I think that's just because Kishimoto hasn't been able to fit it in yet. Either that or it's a plot hole.
There is a redeeming factor to the story though. I've always been a large advocate of Orochimaru not screwing around with Naruto (Attempted murder nonwithstanding because that was just stupid) because the Akatsuki could come and track him down for more reasons than just betraying them, and he actually uses it. That's probably the only reason I will finish this story to the end.
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Yeah. Of course it was. Because Sasuke would never be able to bring himself to kill an enemy ninja. Especially when said enemy ninja is one of the main aggressors in the opening shot of a ninja village war.
Right. :sweat2:
Regardless of your opinion on the matter of "rushing to power" (because your opinion is largely irrelevant to the author, I would suspect,) the fact is, everthing went down in that story in a way that was in-character and logical. Sasuke would kill Temari. Orochimaru would take the gamble. Naruto would overcome the seal in a combination of sheer dumb luck and unbelievable strength of will.
Furthermore, am I the only one who finds commenting on a fic that one can only half remember to be a silly waste of time, at best? Either go back and check it again, or stop making irrelevant, subjective statements.
Yeah. Of course it was. Because Sasuke would never be able to bring himself to kill an enemy ninja. Especially when said enemy ninja is one of the main aggressors in the opening shot of a ninja village war.
Right. :sweat2:
Regardless of your opinion on the matter of "rushing to power" (because your opinion is largely irrelevant to the author, I would suspect,) the fact is, everthing went down in that story in a way that was in-character and logical. Sasuke would kill Temari. Orochimaru would take the gamble. Naruto would overcome the seal in a combination of sheer dumb luck and unbelievable strength of will.
Furthermore, am I the only one who finds commenting on a fic that one can only half remember to be a silly waste of time, at best? Either go back and check it again, or stop making irrelevant, subjective statements.
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Temari's death doesn't bother me. Honestly. What does bother me is the ammount of description he goes into describing how much of a humiliating death it was for her, going into precise detail how insulting it was to her. That's where he went over the top, not actually killing her.
Don't get me wrong, the story is good, overall, and among the best in the Naruto fandom. However Orochimaru would not mark Naruto, because I believe he is not stupid (But he fixed that since Akatsuki goes after him for it, so points for the author). Akatsuki is full of 9 people stronger than him (Ten if you count Madara powered!Tobi), and directly attacking one of their goals is begging for him to get killed, and Orochimaru isn't that dumb. Plus taking Naruto as a vessal is just plain stupid. With this darker plot Sasuke would have been the better choice (Especially since he doens't have a demon that could easily crush the person who goes into the body because the soul is not used to channeling demonic chakra). But since the Akatsuki plot is used, overall I can forgive that, even If I disagree.
Overcoming the seal is possible for Naruto, even this darker version, I'll give you that. But Orochimaru has no real reason to mark him if it would send 9 very powerful people after him. And that is the height of stupid. Right up there with Kabuto just standing there, and Luffy's dubbed voice.
The Kurenai thing I don't remember (Because it was a side thing that should have been covered more if he planed to use it for a plot point like this), but regarding all my other arguements they were nearer to the end of the story enough that I am able to remember them.
Temari's death doesn't bother me. Honestly. What does bother me is the ammount of description he goes into describing how much of a humiliating death it was for her, going into precise detail how insulting it was to her. That's where he went over the top, not actually killing her.
Don't get me wrong, the story is good, overall, and among the best in the Naruto fandom. However Orochimaru would not mark Naruto, because I believe he is not stupid (But he fixed that since Akatsuki goes after him for it, so points for the author). Akatsuki is full of 9 people stronger than him (Ten if you count Madara powered!Tobi), and directly attacking one of their goals is begging for him to get killed, and Orochimaru isn't that dumb. Plus taking Naruto as a vessal is just plain stupid. With this darker plot Sasuke would have been the better choice (Especially since he doens't have a demon that could easily crush the person who goes into the body because the soul is not used to channeling demonic chakra). But since the Akatsuki plot is used, overall I can forgive that, even If I disagree.
Overcoming the seal is possible for Naruto, even this darker version, I'll give you that. But Orochimaru has no real reason to mark him if it would send 9 very powerful people after him. And that is the height of stupid. Right up there with Kabuto just standing there, and Luffy's dubbed voice.
The Kurenai thing I don't remember (Because it was a side thing that should have been covered more if he planed to use it for a plot point like this), but regarding all my other arguements they were nearer to the end of the story enough that I am able to remember them.
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Orochimaru didn't want Naruto's body. He wanted him to be his apprentice. Orochimaru isn't afraid of Akatsuki, just wary.
Seriously, the whole not Marking Naruto thing could easily apply to Sasuke. It is a known fact that Akatsuki does not want Orochimaru to gain the Sharingan.
Furthermore, he's Itachi's brother. Akatsuki could have easily decided to kill him for that alone in canon.
Orochimaru didn't want Naruto's body. He wanted him to be his apprentice. Orochimaru isn't afraid of Akatsuki, just wary.
Seriously, the whole not Marking Naruto thing could easily apply to Sasuke. It is a known fact that Akatsuki does not want Orochimaru to gain the Sharingan.
Furthermore, he's Itachi's brother. Akatsuki could have easily decided to kill him for that alone in canon.
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Now you see, that right there makes even less sense. Orochimaru needed a new body a months time after the Sound invasion (Though the Arm thing could be argued as rushing the time limit, but we know he changed bodies three years before, since he could switch). So Orochimaru skipped over a potential new body for an apprentice, when he would have died without one. I honestly don't see why he didn't mark them both.
Also in regards to the Sharingan, Akatsuki has made no effort in the 3 years he had Sasuke to stop Orochimaru from getting it, and the only reason they are taking action against Sasuke now is because he killed Orochimaru. When have they ever mentioned that they didn't want Orochimaru to get the Sharingan?
Itachi may or may not have cared honestly. He made no move before, and no move after in cannon. However I also believe Shippuden is a load of crap, but unfortunately that is cannon.
Though appearently he does care about his brother... odd...
Now you see, that right there makes even less sense. Orochimaru needed a new body a months time after the Sound invasion (Though the Arm thing could be argued as rushing the time limit, but we know he changed bodies three years before, since he could switch). So Orochimaru skipped over a potential new body for an apprentice, when he would have died without one. I honestly don't see why he didn't mark them both.
Also in regards to the Sharingan, Akatsuki has made no effort in the 3 years he had Sasuke to stop Orochimaru from getting it, and the only reason they are taking action against Sasuke now is because he killed Orochimaru. When have they ever mentioned that they didn't want Orochimaru to get the Sharingan?
Itachi may or may not have cared honestly. He made no move before, and no move after in cannon. However I also believe Shippuden is a load of crap, but unfortunately that is cannon.
Though appearently he does care about his brother... odd...
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Really? Hmm... I'll have to double check that. They made no move against Orochimaru at all though (Unless you want to count Sasori), especially when the time limit was so close. Odd...
Checked, no they didn't seem to care either way. From what I can tell they only mentioned it for Itachi's benefit. I think the only reason they were looking into that battle was to make sure Naruto wasn't killed. Here by the way.
Now see, I was under the impression that the Curse mark was part of the Soul transfer process (or just getting him away from Konoha by corrupting his mind), so without it he has nothing, and wouldn't get the body at all. Though I guess if he didn't really fight Sasuke he may not have deemed him worthy, but Sasuke was part of the fight. Sure he wasn't much compared to Naruto, but Naruto is pretty much an exception anyway. But like I said, I can let that point slide because the author did an awesome job with the Akatsuki.
Really? Hmm... I'll have to double check that. They made no move against Orochimaru at all though (Unless you want to count Sasori), especially when the time limit was so close. Odd...
Checked, no they didn't seem to care either way. From what I can tell they only mentioned it for Itachi's benefit. I think the only reason they were looking into that battle was to make sure Naruto wasn't killed. Here by the way.
Now see, I was under the impression that the Curse mark was part of the Soul transfer process (or just getting him away from Konoha by corrupting his mind), so without it he has nothing, and wouldn't get the body at all. Though I guess if he didn't really fight Sasuke he may not have deemed him worthy, but Sasuke was part of the fight. Sure he wasn't much compared to Naruto, but Naruto is pretty much an exception anyway. But like I said, I can let that point slide because the author did an awesome job with the Akatsuki.
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I can't agree with this at all since half of your argument is pure fanon.
First, why wouldn't mark Naruto? Considering how the cursed seal actually works, it's not really a high risk scenario. And if he saw a ton of potential in Naruto, like he did in say, Kimmimaro, then giving Naruto the cursed seal is all the more desireable because it would give him a taste of he could gain from joining Orochimaru's side. And given the village's treatment of Naruto, it was a reasonable assumption that Naruto would be at least considering his options at that point, especially given his new personality.
And where did you get that Akatsuki has nine people stronger than Orochimaru? I'd never seen any evidence that any of them are significantly stronger than him, even Itachi. Orochimaru's statement, as I said in another thread, isn't clear proof on the matter considering the giant round robin the power levels are in Naruto. Orochimaru is one of the Sannin, one of the LEGENDARY ninjas from Konoha. You don't get a rep like that for being a weakling.
And why couldn't he take Naruto as a vessel? It's pure fanon that demon vessels would be such a problem for Naruto. For all we know, Kyuubi couldn't do shit if Orochimaru took over his body; he's behind a cage after all. Hell, Kyuubi might even be more amicable to cooperating with Orochimaru, given Orochimaru's sadistic nature.
Sasuke would only be a good choice because of Orochimaru's ambition: learning every jutsu in existence. In a situation of pure power, you can't get better than Naruto. Orochimaru would get an insane healing factor, near unlimited chakra and possibly that crazy sentient chakra that Naruto was able to use at VoTE.
Seriously, that Kyuubi eating Orochimaru's soul thing is such a major point of annoyance for me. Not that it's a huge deal, but it could be used for an interesting plot point if Orochimaru was using Sasuke merely as a misdirect and was really gunning for Naruto.
I can't agree with this at all since half of your argument is pure fanon.
First, why wouldn't mark Naruto? Considering how the cursed seal actually works, it's not really a high risk scenario. And if he saw a ton of potential in Naruto, like he did in say, Kimmimaro, then giving Naruto the cursed seal is all the more desireable because it would give him a taste of he could gain from joining Orochimaru's side. And given the village's treatment of Naruto, it was a reasonable assumption that Naruto would be at least considering his options at that point, especially given his new personality.
And where did you get that Akatsuki has nine people stronger than Orochimaru? I'd never seen any evidence that any of them are significantly stronger than him, even Itachi. Orochimaru's statement, as I said in another thread, isn't clear proof on the matter considering the giant round robin the power levels are in Naruto. Orochimaru is one of the Sannin, one of the LEGENDARY ninjas from Konoha. You don't get a rep like that for being a weakling.
And why couldn't he take Naruto as a vessel? It's pure fanon that demon vessels would be such a problem for Naruto. For all we know, Kyuubi couldn't do shit if Orochimaru took over his body; he's behind a cage after all. Hell, Kyuubi might even be more amicable to cooperating with Orochimaru, given Orochimaru's sadistic nature.
Sasuke would only be a good choice because of Orochimaru's ambition: learning every jutsu in existence. In a situation of pure power, you can't get better than Naruto. Orochimaru would get an insane healing factor, near unlimited chakra and possibly that crazy sentient chakra that Naruto was able to use at VoTE.
Seriously, that Kyuubi eating Orochimaru's soul thing is such a major point of annoyance for me. Not that it's a huge deal, but it could be used for an interesting plot point if Orochimaru was using Sasuke merely as a misdirect and was really gunning for Naruto.
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Not quite.
First off the mixing of the curse seal and the Kyuubi vessal is a high risk scenario. For all he knew, it could have released the Kyuubi by putting his body into 'overdrive' which basically means it takes all the chakra in reserves to push your body past it's limits. And Naruto has a freaking Demon Fox for reserves. It's theoretical, but a very real possibility.
I will agree with Orochimaru thinking Naruto could defect, but that pulls us right back to Akatsuki's reasons for tracking him down and killing him becoming higher.
Akatsuki has nine members, and I'm not sure if Orochimaru is stronger than all of them, but Akatsuki goes in pairs. Sure Orochimaru might last against one of them, but against two he wouldn't stand a chance.
Hidan and Kuzaku are definitely stronger than him (On can't die, and the other must be killed 6 times I believe), Itachi is iffy, but probably stronger, Kisame has massive reserves appearently, Deidara makes things go boom in several various and dangerous ways (Nuff said), Sasori is his own army with poision, the leader has never lost, and I don't know enough about the last ones to make an able decision. I'm positive that the pairs that are set up would be able to kill Orochimaru, though they might not get out of it unscathed.
He wouldn't take Naruto as a vessal for the very reason that he has the Kyuubi. The risk is too great to take that kind of jump. He doesn't know what will happen if he sticks his soul into a demon vessals body, and the risk is simply too great. Naruto's soul is probably tied to the seal, as it was made from birth. Also if Orochimaru becomes the Kyuubi vessal, that's another reason for Akatsuki to track him down. Admittedly he would be stronger with the kyuubi, but that would just get ALL of Akatsuki after him, and that's another risk Orochimaru wouldn't take.
I didn't mean eating his soul, but Naruto's soul is tied to the seal. If Orochimaru becomes a part of it, I can't honestly see him being able to resist the Kyuubi's chakra like Naruto can (Four tails would kill a normal person). There are way too many wildcards in that scenario, and Orochimaru isn't that stupid. The whole thing is simply made of various what if scenario's, all of which quite probably lead to death for Orochimaru. Sure the rewards, if it all works, would be high, but the risks are worse. Too big a gamble for someone who plans to live forever.
Also when he ditches the body in three years, what would happen? Naruto's Soul would be gone, and the Kyuubi's would (probably) still be there. Too risky, hands down.
Not quite.
First off the mixing of the curse seal and the Kyuubi vessal is a high risk scenario. For all he knew, it could have released the Kyuubi by putting his body into 'overdrive' which basically means it takes all the chakra in reserves to push your body past it's limits. And Naruto has a freaking Demon Fox for reserves. It's theoretical, but a very real possibility.
I will agree with Orochimaru thinking Naruto could defect, but that pulls us right back to Akatsuki's reasons for tracking him down and killing him becoming higher.
Akatsuki has nine members, and I'm not sure if Orochimaru is stronger than all of them, but Akatsuki goes in pairs. Sure Orochimaru might last against one of them, but against two he wouldn't stand a chance.
Hidan and Kuzaku are definitely stronger than him (On can't die, and the other must be killed 6 times I believe), Itachi is iffy, but probably stronger, Kisame has massive reserves appearently, Deidara makes things go boom in several various and dangerous ways (Nuff said), Sasori is his own army with poision, the leader has never lost, and I don't know enough about the last ones to make an able decision. I'm positive that the pairs that are set up would be able to kill Orochimaru, though they might not get out of it unscathed.
He wouldn't take Naruto as a vessal for the very reason that he has the Kyuubi. The risk is too great to take that kind of jump. He doesn't know what will happen if he sticks his soul into a demon vessals body, and the risk is simply too great. Naruto's soul is probably tied to the seal, as it was made from birth. Also if Orochimaru becomes the Kyuubi vessal, that's another reason for Akatsuki to track him down. Admittedly he would be stronger with the kyuubi, but that would just get ALL of Akatsuki after him, and that's another risk Orochimaru wouldn't take.
I didn't mean eating his soul, but Naruto's soul is tied to the seal. If Orochimaru becomes a part of it, I can't honestly see him being able to resist the Kyuubi's chakra like Naruto can (Four tails would kill a normal person). There are way too many wildcards in that scenario, and Orochimaru isn't that stupid. The whole thing is simply made of various what if scenario's, all of which quite probably lead to death for Orochimaru. Sure the rewards, if it all works, would be high, but the risks are worse. Too big a gamble for someone who plans to live forever.
Also when he ditches the body in three years, what would happen? Naruto's Soul would be gone, and the Kyuubi's would (probably) still be there. Too risky, hands down.
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True but Sarutobi was old, and his power was withering away, while Orochimaru was still in his prime (Sorta), and has been switching bodies to stay that way. Completely different from facing Nine S-Rank Missing Nine who generally travel in pairs, and are still in their prime, or aren't even there yet.
Edit: That's a good point too. Actually it's rather amazing Sarutobi managed to last as long as he did in the battle before he used the Death god...
True but Sarutobi was old, and his power was withering away, while Orochimaru was still in his prime (Sorta), and has been switching bodies to stay that way. Completely different from facing Nine S-Rank Missing Nine who generally travel in pairs, and are still in their prime, or aren't even there yet.
Edit: That's a good point too. Actually it's rather amazing Sarutobi managed to last as long as he did in the battle before he used the Death god...
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The cursed seal isn't a high risk scenario if Orochimaru knows the nature of both seals, which he seems to have a grasp on both. The seal Naruto has on him makes it so that he can use Kyuubi's chakra in times of great need, when his body is low on chakra; normally, his body just uses his own chakra to push Kyuubi's away. The cursed seal wouldn't change that, so unless it somehow completely emptied Naruto's natural reserves, that shouldn't even be an issue.
And the thing with Akatsuki is you're assuming that Orochimaru would fight fair or on his own. Why would he? He has no reason to, and he's not exactly hurting for subordinates. Kabuto is always with him, and pre-timeskip, at the age of 19, he was as strong as Kakashi and managed not to get smeared by Tsunade, which means he could be pretty damned strong in Part two.
Also, if Orochimaru was worried about Akatsuki, he could easily work out plans with Suigetsu, Karin, Juugo, etc. Suigetsu might want to kill him in PTS, but we don't know when Orochimaru started experimenting on him, he could easily decide to recruit him permanently beforehand and avoid that problem altogether. Karin is loyal to Orochimaru to begin with. And Juugo is batshit insane, just let him out of his cage to fight someone, anyone and he'll fight them.
Plus, Itachi was convinced that he AND Kisame couldn't beat Jiraiya, why would that be so much different for Orochimaru? Especially if he used Edo Tensei; Akatsuki would have to find a way to seal the souls he summons. That jutsu alone makes Orochimaru a major threat to any two man team.
You're also mistaking strength with resilience. Hidan was NOT that strong; he lost to arguably a total weakling, and Orochimaru is at least as smart as Shikamaru. Plus Hidan is out of commission the second he has his head cut off if Kakuzu is too busy to sew it back on. And Kakuzu would be more difficult, but certainly not impossible.
I don't even need to really explain the other members, since they're all beatable, even if they are strong. I was just using those two as an example.
The vessel thing is arguable. It all depends on how much he knows about bijuu and jinchuuriki from his time in Akatsuki. He could very easily know that there is no risk or the risk is too high. You're just guessing that it's such a high risk scenario. I'll not fault your logic on that one, but the problem is that this is fantasy where all sorts of crazy shit can be explained away, so I don't think that this would be a major obstacle for him. Because even if his jutsu fails, as it did with Itachi and Sasuke, he can still transfer to another body, like he did right after attempting it with Itachi and failing miserably. He would need to plan ahead, but that's just common sense.
As for the chakra thing, well you're still guessing. The seal, so long as it isn't soul dependent, should work exactly the same for Orochimaru. He could even research ways to make it work better. As for the four tail thing killing someone, that's merely a physical issue. Naruto's body is adjusted to the chakra, so he won't die, but if Orochimaru takes over his body, it's still Naruto's body, not Orochimaru, so there's no issue there either.
And finally, who's to say that Orochimaru can only keep a body for three years? His body could have started failing him because of four tailed Kyuubi. One nick poisoned Sakura pretty badly; Orochimaru was blown apart from a direct blast. His body could have easily started failing right then and there. And if started failing and kyuubi couldn't heal it, then it'd still die just as soon as Orochimaru got a new host and stopped medicating Naruto's body. So I don't see any reason why it's not possible.
The cursed seal isn't a high risk scenario if Orochimaru knows the nature of both seals, which he seems to have a grasp on both. The seal Naruto has on him makes it so that he can use Kyuubi's chakra in times of great need, when his body is low on chakra; normally, his body just uses his own chakra to push Kyuubi's away. The cursed seal wouldn't change that, so unless it somehow completely emptied Naruto's natural reserves, that shouldn't even be an issue.
And the thing with Akatsuki is you're assuming that Orochimaru would fight fair or on his own. Why would he? He has no reason to, and he's not exactly hurting for subordinates. Kabuto is always with him, and pre-timeskip, at the age of 19, he was as strong as Kakashi and managed not to get smeared by Tsunade, which means he could be pretty damned strong in Part two.
Also, if Orochimaru was worried about Akatsuki, he could easily work out plans with Suigetsu, Karin, Juugo, etc. Suigetsu might want to kill him in PTS, but we don't know when Orochimaru started experimenting on him, he could easily decide to recruit him permanently beforehand and avoid that problem altogether. Karin is loyal to Orochimaru to begin with. And Juugo is batshit insane, just let him out of his cage to fight someone, anyone and he'll fight them.
Plus, Itachi was convinced that he AND Kisame couldn't beat Jiraiya, why would that be so much different for Orochimaru? Especially if he used Edo Tensei; Akatsuki would have to find a way to seal the souls he summons. That jutsu alone makes Orochimaru a major threat to any two man team.
You're also mistaking strength with resilience. Hidan was NOT that strong; he lost to arguably a total weakling, and Orochimaru is at least as smart as Shikamaru. Plus Hidan is out of commission the second he has his head cut off if Kakuzu is too busy to sew it back on. And Kakuzu would be more difficult, but certainly not impossible.
I don't even need to really explain the other members, since they're all beatable, even if they are strong. I was just using those two as an example.
The vessel thing is arguable. It all depends on how much he knows about bijuu and jinchuuriki from his time in Akatsuki. He could very easily know that there is no risk or the risk is too high. You're just guessing that it's such a high risk scenario. I'll not fault your logic on that one, but the problem is that this is fantasy where all sorts of crazy shit can be explained away, so I don't think that this would be a major obstacle for him. Because even if his jutsu fails, as it did with Itachi and Sasuke, he can still transfer to another body, like he did right after attempting it with Itachi and failing miserably. He would need to plan ahead, but that's just common sense.
As for the chakra thing, well you're still guessing. The seal, so long as it isn't soul dependent, should work exactly the same for Orochimaru. He could even research ways to make it work better. As for the four tail thing killing someone, that's merely a physical issue. Naruto's body is adjusted to the chakra, so he won't die, but if Orochimaru takes over his body, it's still Naruto's body, not Orochimaru, so there's no issue there either.
And finally, who's to say that Orochimaru can only keep a body for three years? His body could have started failing him because of four tailed Kyuubi. One nick poisoned Sakura pretty badly; Orochimaru was blown apart from a direct blast. His body could have easily started failing right then and there. And if started failing and kyuubi couldn't heal it, then it'd still die just as soon as Orochimaru got a new host and stopped medicating Naruto's body. So I don't see any reason why it's not possible.
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Orochimaru clearly does not know the Dead demon consuming seal, so that argument just failed. Sarutobi uses it on him, and he has NO idea what's going on (He stabs him and shows surprise that Sarutobi doesn't dodge it). I'll give you he may have intimate knowledge of the curse seal, but the dead demon consuming seal is beyond his knowledge as shown by cannon. Also a little of the Kyuubi's chakra is always filtered into Naruto, and it is 'part' of the reason for Naruto's large reserves. Orochimaru might not survive something that Naruto has adapted to since birth.
Okay, in terms of fighting fair I will agree with, but the other side wouldn't fight fair too. And like I said, it's a risk, not a sure fire thing. Akatsuki stands a very good chance of killing him no matter what. Heck, Deidara could just carpet bomb Sound, and roast quite a few of his defenses, and don't get me started on the destructive power of Kuzaku and his masks. And I'm not going into another Kabuto thing, because Naruto creams him with Rasengan right there, and he's nowhere near Kakashi's level. That it was a draw is irrelevent (though admittedly Naruto would have died, but that he managed to knock him unconcious...).
Okay, working out plans is all well and good, but once again, they might not be as strong post Time skip (though Juugo is probably), and I seriously doubt they are Akatsuki level. Even then like I said, it's not likely Akatsuki would play fair either. Just a pair of them would obliterate anything in their way, and that's not counting if Akatsuki decided to send MORE members after them.
The Jiraya thing is iffy, and I've gotten into a similar argument with this. I've said time and again that it was probably recon to confirm the location of the Kyuubi vessal. Even if they did capture Naruto, they would not have been able to use him for three years. Why start a battle where they could get rather wounded and later captured for something that wouldn't be useful to them for years. However I do not want to get into another arguement over this, so I'll just agree to disagree in this issue. Besides, Itachi is heavily hinted as being stronger than Orochimaru, and he was weakened in his previous battle against Kakashi.
Kuzaku is what I call massive force. His moves cause massive damage to a massive area, especially when combined. Just look at the combo of his wind and fire move. Not much could stand against that. Sure he's not invincible, but I'd say he stands a high chance of killing Orochimaru. Hidan I'll agree with, but I'd just like to note that he's a tricky opponant. One cut is all he'd need to get Orochimaru's blood, and after that his Shed skin move won't save him from death.
And yes, all the Akatsuki members are beatable, but like I said, it's a HUGE risk. You said before Orochimaru is as smart as Shikamaru. Taking that kind of risk is just stupid, and something that is largely advised against. This whole plot point is one massive risk against another, and Orochimaru quite simply isn't that stupid.
The vessal thing I'll admit is either high or low risk, but even if it was, all the other risks just add up, even without this one. Also he didn't use his jutsu on Itachi. Where do you get that?
Actuall the issue with four tail is that Naruto's chakra is somehow able to repel the Kyuubi's. If Orochimaru takes him, he may get some of that safety (Sasuke absorbs some of Orochimaru's powers), but since it will be largely his charka, much of the safety will be lost. This is also cannon (Tenzou says it when they start the wind training. Kishimoto put it to note that Naruto's chakra is special).
Also here shows that he is forced to change every three years, and it's not just the Four Tail Kyuubi that did him in. The adverse reaction would doubly apply to Naruto.
Overall this plotline is simply one huge risk after another, and I doubt Orochimaru would leap through all these risks just for a body that may not even be compatable. There are quite simply too many risks in this scenario.
However like I said, the author has done well so far in the story since he has had Akatsuki take action against Naruto. Overall though with a lesser writer this plot would be instant fail. It's like Dichotomy of Kazama Naruto, a bad plot done by an excellent writer can make an excellent story.
Orochimaru clearly does not know the Dead demon consuming seal, so that argument just failed. Sarutobi uses it on him, and he has NO idea what's going on (He stabs him and shows surprise that Sarutobi doesn't dodge it). I'll give you he may have intimate knowledge of the curse seal, but the dead demon consuming seal is beyond his knowledge as shown by cannon. Also a little of the Kyuubi's chakra is always filtered into Naruto, and it is 'part' of the reason for Naruto's large reserves. Orochimaru might not survive something that Naruto has adapted to since birth.
Okay, in terms of fighting fair I will agree with, but the other side wouldn't fight fair too. And like I said, it's a risk, not a sure fire thing. Akatsuki stands a very good chance of killing him no matter what. Heck, Deidara could just carpet bomb Sound, and roast quite a few of his defenses, and don't get me started on the destructive power of Kuzaku and his masks. And I'm not going into another Kabuto thing, because Naruto creams him with Rasengan right there, and he's nowhere near Kakashi's level. That it was a draw is irrelevent (though admittedly Naruto would have died, but that he managed to knock him unconcious...).
Okay, working out plans is all well and good, but once again, they might not be as strong post Time skip (though Juugo is probably), and I seriously doubt they are Akatsuki level. Even then like I said, it's not likely Akatsuki would play fair either. Just a pair of them would obliterate anything in their way, and that's not counting if Akatsuki decided to send MORE members after them.
The Jiraya thing is iffy, and I've gotten into a similar argument with this. I've said time and again that it was probably recon to confirm the location of the Kyuubi vessal. Even if they did capture Naruto, they would not have been able to use him for three years. Why start a battle where they could get rather wounded and later captured for something that wouldn't be useful to them for years. However I do not want to get into another arguement over this, so I'll just agree to disagree in this issue. Besides, Itachi is heavily hinted as being stronger than Orochimaru, and he was weakened in his previous battle against Kakashi.
Kuzaku is what I call massive force. His moves cause massive damage to a massive area, especially when combined. Just look at the combo of his wind and fire move. Not much could stand against that. Sure he's not invincible, but I'd say he stands a high chance of killing Orochimaru. Hidan I'll agree with, but I'd just like to note that he's a tricky opponant. One cut is all he'd need to get Orochimaru's blood, and after that his Shed skin move won't save him from death.
And yes, all the Akatsuki members are beatable, but like I said, it's a HUGE risk. You said before Orochimaru is as smart as Shikamaru. Taking that kind of risk is just stupid, and something that is largely advised against. This whole plot point is one massive risk against another, and Orochimaru quite simply isn't that stupid.
The vessal thing I'll admit is either high or low risk, but even if it was, all the other risks just add up, even without this one. Also he didn't use his jutsu on Itachi. Where do you get that?
Actuall the issue with four tail is that Naruto's chakra is somehow able to repel the Kyuubi's. If Orochimaru takes him, he may get some of that safety (Sasuke absorbs some of Orochimaru's powers), but since it will be largely his charka, much of the safety will be lost. This is also cannon (Tenzou says it when they start the wind training. Kishimoto put it to note that Naruto's chakra is special).
Also here shows that he is forced to change every three years, and it's not just the Four Tail Kyuubi that did him in. The adverse reaction would doubly apply to Naruto.
Overall this plotline is simply one huge risk after another, and I doubt Orochimaru would leap through all these risks just for a body that may not even be compatable. There are quite simply too many risks in this scenario.
However like I said, the author has done well so far in the story since he has had Akatsuki take action against Naruto. Overall though with a lesser writer this plot would be instant fail. It's like Dichotomy of Kazama Naruto, a bad plot done by an excellent writer can make an excellent story.
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One point most of you seem to be forgetting: Orochimaru never considered Naruto as a possible vessel to begin with. He wants Naruto as a trump card to play against his enemies. After all, which would be more useful: an unwilling vessel with the power of the Kyuubi fighting against him, or a loyal and well-trained Jinchuuriki fighting at his side? Orochimaru went into the forest with the intention of testing Sasuke's potential as a new body and Naruto's potential as a new apprentice. Naruto passed with flying colors; Sasuke failed horribly without canon-Naruto there to give him courage.
One point most of you seem to be forgetting: Orochimaru never considered Naruto as a possible vessel to begin with. He wants Naruto as a trump card to play against his enemies. After all, which would be more useful: an unwilling vessel with the power of the Kyuubi fighting against him, or a loyal and well-trained Jinchuuriki fighting at his side? Orochimaru went into the forest with the intention of testing Sasuke's potential as a new body and Naruto's potential as a new apprentice. Naruto passed with flying colors; Sasuke failed horribly without canon-Naruto there to give him courage.
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This is true in 9 Tailed serpents, but as I said this is an unwise move by Orochimaru because now he has no vessal set in line for when his three years are up because he cannot use Naruto (this story wise). I still think he should have marked both of them.
What we are discussing is the plausibility of using Naruto as a vessal plot wise. Not specifically for this story.
This is true in 9 Tailed serpents, but as I said this is an unwise move by Orochimaru because now he has no vessal set in line for when his three years are up because he cannot use Naruto (this story wise). I still think he should have marked both of them.
What we are discussing is the plausibility of using Naruto as a vessal plot wise. Not specifically for this story.
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Your first argument makes no sense. He doesn't know the jutsu that involves the death god, that's it. Just the jutsu, not the seal. He clearly knew what the seal was and how it functioned in the forest of death or else he would've been taking a huge risk by doing ANYTHING to the seal, so it's, unfortunately, your argument that fails on this one.
I'm not gonna even bother with the Akatsuki bit since you seem to think they're unbeatable. Despite Deidara being beat more or less easily by someone who admitted they were a lot weaker than Orochimaru and used a skillset that was probably quite similar to Orochimaru's. Kisame says Suigetsu was a prodigy in the art of murder. Orochimaru and Kabuto planned to kill Sasori and Deidara when they were set to meet them, only to end up meeting Team 7. Hidan was beaten by a pathetically weak moron who's plans failed time and time again and didn't work until plan #569. Despite Gai beating Kisame's clone (and it had 30 percent of his chakra, not his skills or strength, so it would still count as a victory).
And Orochimaru has pissed all over Akatsuki's plans a couple of times, so it's not like he's not already a major target, and Kabuto has information about Akatsuki's movements, so he's definitely keeping an eye on them. Having their ring alone should be enough to get him killed, so I don't see why he would be that much more of a target.
Point is, Akatsuki is beatable. They're strong. But they're beatable.
The vessel thing is up in the air, so that's pretty much a dead argument.
But the "proof" you gave me does nothing to suggest that three years is the absolute max he can hold a body. All it says is "This body is indeed showing an adverse reaction."
An adverse reaction to what? Shellfish? How about Kyuubi's highly poisonous chakra? But no. That couldn't possibly be it.
Edit: My browser closed and my rebuttal was cut short.
It could be that there is a three year time limit. But I wanted to point out there could be extenuating circumstances as well. And the timeline is all wrong for the three year time limit, considering that Naruto came back at least 6 months early, which would make Orochimaru's limit closer to 2.5 years and not 3.
The facts don't add up in that scenario. The truth is that there are suggestions, but the problem is that there are inconsistencies. If Kishimoto gave us some hard proof one way or another, I'd probably be inclined to agree with you. But I'm arguing for the sake of plausibility in fanfiction, so I tend to keep my options wide open. (That said, you could easily give him a jutsu that lets him keep his body indefinitely in a fanfic scenario, but I like to try and stay fairly close to canon)
Also, as a side note, I don't like Dichotomy of Kazama Naruto. But, I do agree that good writing makes up a lot for bad plots; not that I think NTS is inherently bad, even if I do wish that a few things were altered a bit. :huh.:
Your first argument makes no sense. He doesn't know the jutsu that involves the death god, that's it. Just the jutsu, not the seal. He clearly knew what the seal was and how it functioned in the forest of death or else he would've been taking a huge risk by doing ANYTHING to the seal, so it's, unfortunately, your argument that fails on this one.
I'm not gonna even bother with the Akatsuki bit since you seem to think they're unbeatable. Despite Deidara being beat more or less easily by someone who admitted they were a lot weaker than Orochimaru and used a skillset that was probably quite similar to Orochimaru's. Kisame says Suigetsu was a prodigy in the art of murder. Orochimaru and Kabuto planned to kill Sasori and Deidara when they were set to meet them, only to end up meeting Team 7. Hidan was beaten by a pathetically weak moron who's plans failed time and time again and didn't work until plan #569. Despite Gai beating Kisame's clone (and it had 30 percent of his chakra, not his skills or strength, so it would still count as a victory).
And Orochimaru has pissed all over Akatsuki's plans a couple of times, so it's not like he's not already a major target, and Kabuto has information about Akatsuki's movements, so he's definitely keeping an eye on them. Having their ring alone should be enough to get him killed, so I don't see why he would be that much more of a target.
Point is, Akatsuki is beatable. They're strong. But they're beatable.
The vessel thing is up in the air, so that's pretty much a dead argument.
But the "proof" you gave me does nothing to suggest that three years is the absolute max he can hold a body. All it says is "This body is indeed showing an adverse reaction."
An adverse reaction to what? Shellfish? How about Kyuubi's highly poisonous chakra? But no. That couldn't possibly be it.
Edit: My browser closed and my rebuttal was cut short.
It could be that there is a three year time limit. But I wanted to point out there could be extenuating circumstances as well. And the timeline is all wrong for the three year time limit, considering that Naruto came back at least 6 months early, which would make Orochimaru's limit closer to 2.5 years and not 3.
The facts don't add up in that scenario. The truth is that there are suggestions, but the problem is that there are inconsistencies. If Kishimoto gave us some hard proof one way or another, I'd probably be inclined to agree with you. But I'm arguing for the sake of plausibility in fanfiction, so I tend to keep my options wide open. (That said, you could easily give him a jutsu that lets him keep his body indefinitely in a fanfic scenario, but I like to try and stay fairly close to canon)
Also, as a side note, I don't like Dichotomy of Kazama Naruto. But, I do agree that good writing makes up a lot for bad plots; not that I think NTS is inherently bad, even if I do wish that a few things were altered a bit. :huh.:
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I dunno...i remember somewhere that i believe is cannon that Orochimaru is a jutsu freak meaning his greatest talent lies with jutsus, in this case, I don't think its actually possible for Orochimaru to take out the Akatsuki. Itachi and Obito both have the Sharingan which gives them a natural advantage against ninjutsu and genjutsu and Kisame can outlast Orochimaru in a battle of attrition. Hidan and Kakuzu are both terribly hard to kill. That leaves Zetsu, Deidara, Sasori, Leader, and the chick (trap?) as unknowns, given these odds, its highly unlikely that Orochimaru can actually stand against Akatsuki on equal grounds
I dunno...i remember somewhere that i believe is cannon that Orochimaru is a jutsu freak meaning his greatest talent lies with jutsus, in this case, I don't think its actually possible for Orochimaru to take out the Akatsuki. Itachi and Obito both have the Sharingan which gives them a natural advantage against ninjutsu and genjutsu and Kisame can outlast Orochimaru in a battle of attrition. Hidan and Kakuzu are both terribly hard to kill. That leaves Zetsu, Deidara, Sasori, Leader, and the chick (trap?) as unknowns, given these odds, its highly unlikely that Orochimaru can actually stand against Akatsuki on equal grounds
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If he marked them both even though Sasuke was weak then if Sasuke died Orochimaru's ambition would have been screwed over. That is why it was a smart move on his part. Also he already has a back up body to switch into or at least he did in canon because that is how he regained the use of his arms if I remember correctly.
If he marked them both even though Sasuke was weak then if Sasuke died Orochimaru's ambition would have been screwed over. That is why it was a smart move on his part. Also he already has a back up body to switch into or at least he did in canon because that is how he regained the use of his arms if I remember correctly.
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Jiraya specifically stated that the seal done on Naruto was sloopy work. Therefore Orochimaru has limited knowledge of seals, and simply used one that he knew in order to stop it. That gives no evidence to his specific knowlegde of how the seal works between Naruto and the Kyuubi. Arguement just failed right there.
I don't think they are unbeatable, but you seem to think that Orochimaru can plan for every situation involving them. Orochimaru is not invincible, and it is clear that there are members stronger than him. If two or more come after him he doesn't stand a high chance of survival, simple as that. And Orochimaru would not take that kind of risk when he seeks immortality. All those battles you mentioned are one on one. You fail to plan for the instance Orochimaru has to face two of them. Also depending on when Orochimaru fights them, he could be weakened by his body failing on him. If Sasuke can beat a weakened orochimaru no problem so can any one of the Akatsuki.
Deidara vs. Sasuke and Sasuke vs. Orochimaru. Sharingan. Nuff said.
Suigetsu is a failed plot line because he hates Orochimaru (Cannon), Juugo is a basketcase and a pacifist (Cept when crazy), and Karin shows no ability in battle whatsoever (Yet I'll admit). Even if they were used to defend Orochimaru, two members of Akatsuki would screw them over. Let alone more.
Akatsuki (other than Sasori) have not made Orochimaru very high in their plans, and seemed confident Orochimaru would die by his own means by the end of the first part of Naruto. Other than that Orochimaru has been very careful about messing with Akatsuki.
And he'd be that much more of a target because he is messing with one of their major goals. They are AFTER the Jinchurriki. That is a MAJOR part of their plans. They even put off killing Orochimaru as they search for all of them. If he starts messing with one of them, Akatsuki has a major reason to hunt him down and kill him.
Akatsuki may be beatable, but Orochimaru is too. The snake can't possibly risk getting himself killed for messing with Akatsuki's goals, and he knows that if he does that he's screwed. And frankly he doesn't stand a chance against two or more members. They may be able to wound eachother, but ultimitely Orochimaru would die in a battle against two members.
Agreed, very dead arguement, too much assumption to go on much.
Orochimaru blocked the orb with three Ryushoman (SP?) Gates, left a fake body behind (Later Orochimaru's true body comes out of the extended neck), and dodged the overall blow. He wasn't hit with the orb at all. Thus he could not have an adverse reaction to Kyuubi's chakra. Also here is the page after it. It is heavily implied that he was talking about the body transfer technique. Otherwise why would he mention Sasuke at all? It's not solid sure, but it is enough evidence to support that as the three year time limit comes to an end, the body starts to reject Orochimaru's soul.
Also to respond to the comment above:
The fact that he didn't mark Sasuke means that he wasn't after Sasuke's body. The whole point of marking him was to give him a taste of the power he would get if he defected to sound. Without that, Sasuke's reasons for leaving grow very very small.
Edit: Didn't see your new comment.
Agreed for the extenuating circumstances. I honestly think Kishimoto wrote himself into a corner there. Unless the Garra plot took a few months, which I doubt.
However I'll agree it works for a fanfic, particularly this one because he DOES have Akatsuki go after him. Like I said before, if a bad plot is written well it makes a good story. I also don't think NTS is bad, I just believe that he chose an unwise plot point in this case. He actually does make up for it.
And dang is it hard discussing with the same person on two topics...
Jiraya specifically stated that the seal done on Naruto was sloopy work. Therefore Orochimaru has limited knowledge of seals, and simply used one that he knew in order to stop it. That gives no evidence to his specific knowlegde of how the seal works between Naruto and the Kyuubi. Arguement just failed right there.
I don't think they are unbeatable, but you seem to think that Orochimaru can plan for every situation involving them. Orochimaru is not invincible, and it is clear that there are members stronger than him. If two or more come after him he doesn't stand a high chance of survival, simple as that. And Orochimaru would not take that kind of risk when he seeks immortality. All those battles you mentioned are one on one. You fail to plan for the instance Orochimaru has to face two of them. Also depending on when Orochimaru fights them, he could be weakened by his body failing on him. If Sasuke can beat a weakened orochimaru no problem so can any one of the Akatsuki.
Deidara vs. Sasuke and Sasuke vs. Orochimaru. Sharingan. Nuff said.
Suigetsu is a failed plot line because he hates Orochimaru (Cannon), Juugo is a basketcase and a pacifist (Cept when crazy), and Karin shows no ability in battle whatsoever (Yet I'll admit). Even if they were used to defend Orochimaru, two members of Akatsuki would screw them over. Let alone more.
Akatsuki (other than Sasori) have not made Orochimaru very high in their plans, and seemed confident Orochimaru would die by his own means by the end of the first part of Naruto. Other than that Orochimaru has been very careful about messing with Akatsuki.
And he'd be that much more of a target because he is messing with one of their major goals. They are AFTER the Jinchurriki. That is a MAJOR part of their plans. They even put off killing Orochimaru as they search for all of them. If he starts messing with one of them, Akatsuki has a major reason to hunt him down and kill him.
Akatsuki may be beatable, but Orochimaru is too. The snake can't possibly risk getting himself killed for messing with Akatsuki's goals, and he knows that if he does that he's screwed. And frankly he doesn't stand a chance against two or more members. They may be able to wound eachother, but ultimitely Orochimaru would die in a battle against two members.
Agreed, very dead arguement, too much assumption to go on much.
Orochimaru blocked the orb with three Ryushoman (SP?) Gates, left a fake body behind (Later Orochimaru's true body comes out of the extended neck), and dodged the overall blow. He wasn't hit with the orb at all. Thus he could not have an adverse reaction to Kyuubi's chakra. Also here is the page after it. It is heavily implied that he was talking about the body transfer technique. Otherwise why would he mention Sasuke at all? It's not solid sure, but it is enough evidence to support that as the three year time limit comes to an end, the body starts to reject Orochimaru's soul.
Also to respond to the comment above:
The fact that he didn't mark Sasuke means that he wasn't after Sasuke's body. The whole point of marking him was to give him a taste of the power he would get if he defected to sound. Without that, Sasuke's reasons for leaving grow very very small.
Edit: Didn't see your new comment.
Agreed for the extenuating circumstances. I honestly think Kishimoto wrote himself into a corner there. Unless the Garra plot took a few months, which I doubt.
However I'll agree it works for a fanfic, particularly this one because he DOES have Akatsuki go after him. Like I said before, if a bad plot is written well it makes a good story. I also don't think NTS is bad, I just believe that he chose an unwise plot point in this case. He actually does make up for it.
And dang is it hard discussing with the same person on two topics...