Nasuverse Puella Magi Sakura Magica

Tsuki_CB · Mar 11, 2011

Also something for you to chew on

From TVtropes...

Of course most the wishes do only literally what they say. And you'll be experiencing despair equal to the happiness gained from that wish. And you get to spend the rest of your life as a magical girl zombie fighting witches that may or may not be evil. Before turning into one yourself.

So much for that sofa and big screen TV guys :lol:

The damn wish is a Monkey's Paw.

lask · Mar 11, 2011

That's something of a metaphor. The wishes all seem basicly honest, actually. That the girls didn't get what they wanted comes across as there own fault in most cases.

Tsuki_CB · Mar 11, 2011

Sooo....wishing your father's sermons would be understood is good! But when said wish and understanding of sermons causes same father into killing his family and the only reason said girl survived was because she was a magic girl zombie is bad, BUT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH KARMIC BACKLASH AT ALL

It's a monkey's paw, pure and simple. Now you have to ask yourself. Freedom would make Sakura very, VERY happy....I wonder what kinda disaster it would take to match that...

lask · Mar 11, 2011

She wished for people to come and lessen to her father, and she got that. If you were going to monkey paw that wish, there are so many horrible ways of doing it... which didn't happen. She screw up and let her father find out that she had given him mind-control powers, that the reason people came and lessened to him was because she made it so that he was abridging their free will.

She got her wish fair and square, Kyubey didn't geep her or twist it at all.

Tsuki_CB · Mar 11, 2011

I never said Kyubey did it, it seems not even he completely knows the forces he's playing with.

lask · Mar 11, 2011

It's nonsense, really. Generally, they'll either generate far less despair then hope (by dying to soon), or far more despair then hope (by turning into a witch).

Madoka herself is a great proof of concept. When she turns into a witch, she kills the world. Walpurgis Night devestates a town, and a wish to be strong enough to save kill him... kills a planet.

Magical Girls are about they're hopes. As long as they remain magical girls, they are being who wish their hopes into being.

Witches are beings of despair. Once the soul gem darken's all the way from use, their despair overtakes them and rewrites them into walking curses. They are beings who inflect unlimited despair on the world as long as they surivie, spawning other, lesser witches to do the same.

On the whole, the system clearly generates a surplus of despair. That is to say, it sucks. Sakura's begining situation is so bad, however, then she could easily remain oblivious to her screwedness. Plus, as long as she can mantain Rider, she has a 'free' witchhunter to collect griefseeds for her without using up her own light.

Basicly, she's ideally placed to be relitively happy in such a bad situation.

ragnarok1337 · Mar 11, 2011

Well, to go back to an earlier argument, why would she accept QB's offer?

She has nothing to lose. I know it's already been stated, but it's worth repeating. She isn't willing to tell Shirou about her problems, and thinks she has no purpose. Even if she knows there will be some cost to accepting QB's offer, she would probably figure it can't be much worse than how her life is now.

SimmyC · Mar 11, 2011

Hmm. Monkey Paw situation seems to be right. Wishing for one thing good, but something bad happens to balance it out. But I also see it the way lask sees it. The wish was not twisted in any way. The wish itself isn't being perverted... it's just the fact that the wish isn't always what the wisher really wants that is the 'problem.' Contradiction? Let's look at the wishes we know so far.

Take a look at Sayaka. She wished for Kyousuke to be healed. Alright. Kyuubee granted it. He's healed. Not partially. Not temporarily. But completely and permanently healed.

But Sayaka didn't do it simply because she wanted Kyousuke to live a happy normal life. She wanted Kyousuke's dick. The wish does not address that. All the wish did was heal him. Hence her descent.

Kyouko's wish for people to understand her father's sermon... what she probably really wanted was her father to be happy and that by making that wish, it would have done that. But the reality was the wish didn't make her father happy. So when her father found out and went berserk... well, hence her cold matter of fact business stance afterwards.

Since it was already spoiled, might as well just mention it. Homura's wish to go back to the time of their meeting so their meeting and change her fate so to speak. I.e. instead of the one being rescued, at the very least, help Madoka out. Wish granted. And now stuck in a time loop because besides stuck failing to save Madoka, turns out "being meguca is suffering" :3. [edit]What Homura probably really wanted, besides Madoka being happy, was them to all be one happy magical girl squad.

The fact that magical girls turn into witches, that there was stuff that she didn't know? Not Kyuubee's fault. Well, it is his fault for deceiving them. But it was't his fault the wish didn't give happiness. He just fulfilled his end of the bargain. He never guaranteed satisfaction. :3

nick012000 · Mar 11, 2011

A thought: given how much despair Sakura has in her, she might well be an attractive target for any witches in the area; it's possible she might get mixed up in the Puella Magi business when a witch sucks her into its labyrinth (like what happened to Homura in the first timeline), and Ayako (and any companions) rescue her. Possibly followed by confusion when Sakura's still claiming to be dirty and worthless even after the witch was defeated, and then lots of anger when Sakura explains her history to them (since they're both magicians and friends, so it's safe to tell them).

Also, if Ayako is a magical girl, maybe her wish was for her archery club to get good enough to win the championships. Shirou joined the Archery club. Then he left it again, because Shinji is an asshole and drove him away.

Shadow Zeranion · Mar 11, 2011

*Episode 10 Spoilers ahead. Don't read if you haven't seen it yet*

I've got agree and disagree on this point. Every single wish's bad result seems to me like it was simply a classic issue of humans wishing for what they want, not what they need. I don't think its a Monkey Paw's wish in the aspect that it is doomed to failure, but I do think that these girls were too naive and made bad choices in their wishes.

Kyoko could have wished for something like her family not going hungry and instead made it that while poor her family would always have enough at the table. It wouldn't have fixed her Dad's problems with the sermons, but it would allow her and her family to survive and her father wouldn't go insane finding out that his daughter had stolen people's free will to make them listen to his sermon. But no, she wanted her father to be happy and so instead wished that people would listen to him. It was what she wanted not needed.

Sayaka similarly wanted Kyousuke to be happy and healthy. However, in reality she never actually needed any of that and as Homura said, could have lived a nice life with him if she hadn't made the wish and relied on magic. He would have to give up music, but she'd be right besides him helping him all the way, and probably have a classic love story come out of it.

Madoka in the loops seems to simply want the power to help people. Well... In all honesty the city looks pretty doomed if she doesn't make the wish, but in the end it is a wish for something she wants, not something that is truly necessary, as even if it might take time the material hints that other Puella Magi would come from other cites to deal with the Walpurgis Night, but Madoka wants the power to either change all that herself, or in the earlier loops wanted to help people as a magical girl, not as herself.

Homura's wish is possibly one of the best examples of this. She wanted to help Madoka. She wanted to fight alongside her. She gets her wish, but in the end was it really worth it? It was what she wanted not what she needed and it seems to me that every loop gets worse as she fails over and over. She could have continued living her life normally, with the life Madoka sacrificed herself to save, but in the end she wanted something else and gave that up.

The only one who seems to evade this in most loops is Mami, and her wish was used to save her own life. It was an actual need and except in that one loop where she goes insane about the truth of soul gems and witches she actually doesn't have a bad extended life in any of the loops, even if she ends up dying every time.

It isn't so much Karma, as the girls either not knowing, or not thinking about the repercussions their wishes might have, and those unforeseen repercussions coming back to bite them in the ass later. in other words I don't believe there is some force out there trying to screw them over, its just a chain of cause and effect that happens to end badly for them.

*****

On a side note, I think I understand now why Homura isn't anywhere near as close to the other girls despite looping with them so many times. Every one of them except Madoka simply hasn't gotten close to her, or has done something to break her trust.

Sayaka: Quite harshly and bluntly called her a liar when she warned them about Kyuubee's plan and the truth behind the Soul Gems and Grief Seeds. Not to mention it looks like she wasn't fighting with them in the original loop and she became a witch in another.

Kyouko: It seems like she shows up in the loops only rarely. We only saw her in one of the shown ones.

Mami: COULD have been another person she'd become obsessed with saving, but the loop she goes psycho and kills Kyouko and was preparing to kill her probably destroyed her trust in her mentor figure.

Madoka: Kind to her in the original loop, encouraged her, never became a witch except after Walpurgis, and saved her when Mami was going to kill her. Is it any wonder that she's the only one that Homura wants to really save? After all she said that Madoka is her only friend.

SimmyC · Mar 11, 2011

Yeah... after reading Shadow Zeranion's reply, I have to take some of my assessment back since, funny enough, that was what I originally concluded. Even my last reply was mostly this. Not so much a Monkey Paw situation as, naive girls making naive wishes.

The reason why I said that the Monkey Paw situation 'seems' to be right, was, well, so far all the wishes something bad happens right? Thing is, I was over thinking it and thought in too broadly of the terms, 'good' and 'bad'. Narrowing it by looking at the wish itself... the wish itself wasn't what was corrupted. Monkey Paw situation would be like, well, using xxxHolic where a Monkey Paw was used, wish for rain to happen, the water came from the swimming pool. Wish to have an awesome report... turns out it's the same report written by someone else and now you're accused of plagiarism. That doesn't happen here. Like Shadow Zeranion said, while I haven't thought of it this way, it was due to the girls wishing for what they wanted. Not what they needed (thought of it more like, them lying to themselves on what they really want, and made a wish that appears they had thought would accomplish that goal, when it doesn't even address the issue. Oh, I want people to understand my father more so that we'll be successful and happy. When in reality she just wanted to not go hungry. Or Sayaka healing Kyousuke because she wants him to be happy... no, it's because she wants his dick). The wishes themselves are, 'seemingly' harmless. It's just not the wish that would have given them what they really really 'needed.'

And I also understand Homura more now too. For the same conclusions as Shadow Zeranion as well. Which is what Episode 10 was all about. That being said, can't say what she is doing is helping the situation. What she's doing is basically making Madoka feel like shit as her friends are killed one by one.

Now yes, in Homura's situation, she's basically been giving a shit sandwich and doesn't have a lot of ways to make it taste good. Sayaka refuses to even flirt with the idea that Kyuubee is lying or that the wish was not a good wish. Mami went batshit crazy in one world and almost killed her (which I find funny how this seemed to have turned a lot of people against her. Well yeah. killing your 'partners' if not 'friends' could easily do that. But put yourself in her shoes, she believed she was a magical girl doing only good. And then you find out you turn into the very things you are fighting? My more logical mind might have came to the same conclusion since we all know what witches do to people. And heck, what it does to the entire city if not the world. Course I wouldn't have gone, or attempted to have gone, on a killing spree. But I'm also not juked up on emotions either). And Kyouko was, let's face it. She walks in being a bitch, and probably remained a bitch since she doesn't get the epiphany we get in the 'current' timeline. Doesn't give a lot of time for Homura to buddy up, and probably thought she was as much of an antagonist as well, Kyuubee.

But the way she's going about it, it won't get any better. Not to mention, it appears her time traveling ways... is making Madoka more powerful. Makes me think of Kyuubee going "Just as Keikaku." TL Note: Keikaku means Plan. :3

Tsuki_CB · Mar 12, 2011

I think what Homura's done is rather admirable. I had already had the thought, before it was stated, that choosing one single thing to protect would be much better then trying for something nebulous like truth, justice and the Japanese way.

What's more while Madoka seems to be growing stronger and retaining memories Kyubee isn't. It seems out of the time lines shown he only put it together in this one because Homura has been much more active in countering him, and he only found out once before because she dropped a HUGE hint of what she could do. I think soon something is gonna give and I think it will break in favor of Modoka and Homura.

Now here's the problem...

I'm going to take back Monkey's Paw because the guy above me had a point on how direct they tend to be. But I'm not letting go of the karmic backlash that seems to happen every time a wish is made. Mami's wish would be VERY hard to screw with if you think about it, not much room for interpretation in I don't want to die, I can't help put point out that every time we've seen her die is when she seems to not feel like she's alone anymore.

The incident with Walpurgis had her and Modoka confident that they could kill it only for her to die well before Madoka.

The point where she snapped and started killing everybody was among all of her friends, and probably played a part in her snapping.

And in this time line she dies mere moments after stating that she doesn't feel alone anymore and that she's the happiest she's been in forever.

Seeing that pattern?

With Sayaka it's a little more complicated. She made a wish that was, for the most part, unselfish and would be considered a good wish by most. However it left a lot of room for karma to work with, and work it did, since it seems that the more their souls are corrupted the more despair they feel. Sayaka's continued use of her power and seeming refusal to purge her soul gem leaves her feeling VERY hopeless towards the end. It's the whole reason she didn't even try to confess to Kyousuke since she reasoned that he wouldn't love a zombie, despite the fact she could have just not told him about it and he wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Kyoko is a bit different in that after the results of her wish happened she started living just for herself and it seems it worked just fine until she meets up with the others, she only seems to die by choosing too or being betrayed. As for the whole food analogy I ask, where would the food come from? More importantly how can you be sure it was just for food that she made the wish? It's nowhere near uncommon for humans to have multiple reasons for doing something. The stuff has to come from somewhere and it would lead to a karmic backlash.

Modoka's wish always seems to be the same, to be able to protect people. Notice that at the end she ALWAYS turns into a witch stronger then Walpurgis except for the first time, and the time Homura killed her and we don't know what her wish was in the first, it was a standard death for a standard magic girl in the first time line. She didn't start getting weird until after Homura's wish.

Which brings us to now. I think Homura's wish isn't done yet. I think her wish tapped something much stronger then previous wishes and I don't think Kyubee understands that. What's more is the karmic backlash. Either it'll be satisfied with how ever many times Homura has to watch the person she cares for most die, or it'll be waiting for her at the finish line. If it is it's gonna be epic bad I think.

Other then that I want to point out that Homura did try to save both Sayaka and Mami, she just didn't seem too surprised when it didn't work out.

Garlak · Mar 12, 2011

Hm. How come Homura hasn't turned into a witch yet?

ItsaRandomUsername · Mar 12, 2011

I think we now know what derails Sakura-related threads.

magnum777 · Mar 12, 2011

IRuN! What is this madness you have created?

btw, it's me, Kyokushi from BL

lask · Mar 12, 2011

Garlak said:

When you despair, you usually stop purifying your Soul Gem, but despair alone won't do it (else she would have turned when Madoka asked her for the mercykilling, reguardless). She intelligent and frugal with her magic, and she hunts enough witches to keep her soul gem clean. Kyoko did the very same thing after her own Despair Event Horizon.

Despair is what births a witches magic, and despair makes you careless and suicidal, but a Magical Girl can despair to her hearts content without turning into a witch as long as she makes sure to look after the basic nessessities of her lifestyle.

magnum777 · Mar 12, 2011

lask said:

I don't know if you can say madoka has been getting stronger each time around. In the other timelines, she had been a puella magi for a week so she could have used up a good chunk of her soul gem's purity. In the one before the current timeline, she had just turned into a puella magi and had apparently used up ALL of her magic in one shot to destroy Walpurgis Night.

ItsaRandomUsername · Mar 12, 2011

magnum777 said:

It's so wonderful~

And you're Kyokushi, huh? That's good - us BL Exiles must stick together, now so more than EVER BEFORE!

magnum777 · Mar 12, 2011

ItsaRandomUsername said:

YES

also I heard EVOspace got out of the earthquake fine

hopefully Kieran and Elf and co will be showing up too

Tsuki_CB · Mar 12, 2011

She almost did once, but Madoka saved her. It was the time line that Homura killed her in, it was at Madoka's request.

Other then that she did it the old fashion way, purifying her soul gem by draining it of despair and moving it to a grief seed.

SimmyC · Mar 12, 2011

One thing that is debatable right now whether or not Madoka is getting more powerful in each timeline, it it just seems that way given the circumstances.

As far as I remember, she only turned into a witch twice. The first time, might have to rewatch the episode, but I believe Homura went back in time before she truly became the world destroying witch she 'probably' turned into. And then the timeline right before the current one is where we see how powerful she becomes as a witch. All the other times, she dies before that happens. One with Homura doing the mercy killing.

And yeah, despair will turn you into a witch. Homura though has been smarter... since she's been killing witches, and using the grief seeds to purify her soul gem. Remember Sayaka didn't just become a witch because she despaired, although that helped, it was the fact that Sayaka refused to use the grief seed to purify her soul gem with her idiotic notion of 'justice.'

lask · Mar 12, 2011

She had also been engaging in a nonstop benge of famililar fighting to go with her witch fighting, famililar's being more common it seems.

Shadow Zeranion · Mar 12, 2011

I also suspect that Homura's reverts to the past might actually reset her soul gem... For one thing, you'd assume given how ridiculously powerful the ability is, that using a reversion to the past would cloud somewhere around half her soul gem, yet in the 4th timeline shown, we see Homura immediately get up, use her pure soul gem to fix here eyes and physical defects, and in this same timeline she freezes an entire military base and steals weapons from it while WALKING. Not to mention from what we saw in the 4th shown timeline, Homura has begun using her future knowledge to track down the witches faster, eliminate them efficiently as she already knows their powers, tactics, and weaknesses, and then snags their grief seeds allowing her to continue this insane elimination pace in order to minimize the chances of Madoka needing to become a Puella Magi.

Another interesting thing I noticed though by re-watching the first episode and comparing it to the tenth... I think the main timeline being shown in the anime might be at minimum the SIXTH one. Comparing the meetings in episode 1 and 10 in the back part of the mall, in episode 1 Homura doesn't hesitate when she sees Madoka saving Kyuubee, and actually abruptly steps on a beaten up drum. In episode 10 on the other hand, Homura pauses, steps back, grips her hand, and walks towards her determined. Very similar circumstances, but ultimately not the same incident.

As such this means 1 of 2 things.

1) Homura has been through more timelines than the number explicitly shown in episode 10 (my personal belief)
2) The animators just screwed up and this is the fifth timeline.

Tsuki_CB · Mar 12, 2011

No Madoka became a witch twice and would have a third time if not for Homura killing her. The first time Modoka actually died, else Kyubee and Homura wouldn't have been just standing there by her corps talking so calmly. The second time she turned into a witch, that's how Homura learns of the Puella Magi's fate, the next one had them both facing the Walpurgis and both were going to turn, but Madoka used the grief seed she got from the Walpurgis to purify Homura's Soul Gem and then asked her to kill her. The fourth time Homura decided it was best for Madoka NOT to become a magic girl and tried to face Walpurgis by herself, which gave Kyubee the opportunity it needed to convince Modoka to make a contract, it's the one where she one shot it. This was the second time we saw Modoka transform into a witch.

Which brings us to the present time line. Kyubee has been able to figure out Homura's powers because she's been way more active in killing him and stopping him then in previous time lines.

Actually I think the going back to the beginning of the whole mess is the work of the wish not Homura herself. However the wish one makes seems to effect the powers and ability's a Puella Magi receives. We see this most clearly in Sayaka and Homura herself.

Sayaka was bound and determined to fight for justice and she made a wish of healing. Because of this she was more durable and recovered faster and she wielded swords, which are often paired with the notion of justice.

Homura made the wish to go back and protect Modoka. Because of this her magic artifact/weapon is a shield that can stop time.

magnum777 · Mar 12, 2011

Personally, I don't think time-stop uses that much energy, if any at all. After all, we see Mami and Kyoko pulling off insane moves one after another and they don't seem too affected by it. Sayaka's regenerative factor probably doesn't dirty the soul gem too much either

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