The MGLN Franchise
- Thread starter Hoki
- Start date
Wait... did ragnarok1337 seriously just play the "Oh yeah? Well... my friends will be here soon and THEY'LL show you!" card? Dude... I think I love this kid. I really hope you hang around... this is awesome stuff!
(btw, mention my name is "Kaijo" to your friends; I'm curious as to how they'll respond!)
Anyway, out of respect for the other posters, I am going to move my response to your issues, into the Force thread, since that thread is dedicated to this. I thought you would, but I guess I'll have to.
(btw, mention my name is "Kaijo" to your friends; I'm curious as to how they'll respond!)
Anyway, out of respect for the other posters, I am going to move my response to your issues, into the Force thread, since that thread is dedicated to this. I thought you would, but I guess I'll have to.
Lack of character development for Nanoha, several characters shunted to the sidelines either way too early or done badly, sub-plots done horribly, Nanoha has zero motivation or drive to be the way she is, Nanoha has no back story and Nanoha is FAR weaker than she is in canon, a LOT of badass scenes from canon were removed, fight scenes were lame and rushed through, the music was incredibly bland...
And most of that complaints is just about the A's movie.
And most of that complaints is just about the A's movie.
...okay. Some of that I can buy, most of it was stuff that didn't bother me, and some things like Nanoha being weaker I think you have completely backwards. However this sounds like something you're absolutely dead set on much like I am with the 'Force is garbage' case so I'm not sure I want to argue the point.
I'll just point out the first action sequence in the A's movie and tell you to compare it to the scenes in Canon to show just how much weaker Movie!Nanoha is compared to Canon.
Seriously, I hated the 2nd movie so much that I almost stopped watching after the 1st action sequence.
Plus the Wolkenritter had to carry both the Idiot and Conflict Balls just to make the conflict work.
Seriously, I hated the 2nd movie so much that I almost stopped watching after the 1st action sequence.
Plus the Wolkenritter had to carry both the Idiot and Conflict Balls just to make the conflict work.
Nanya's "Nanoha being weaker" argument stems from the final battle in A's. Namely, that Nanoha was failing to hold out against Reinforce, and needed to be rescued by Fate before she could stop Reinforce.
Whereas in the original season, Nanoha was able to hold her own and didn't need to be saved by Fate. It's mostly accepted that Fate rescuing her in the end was to make up for the lack of rescuing her at the beginning like in the season, but having done so leaves some unfortunate implications on Nanoha's character as a whole.
Whereas in the original season, Nanoha was able to hold her own and didn't need to be saved by Fate. It's mostly accepted that Fate rescuing her in the end was to make up for the lack of rescuing her at the beginning like in the season, but having done so leaves some unfortunate implications on Nanoha's character as a whole.
You mean how she knew she ought to dodge the giant rocket-powered hammer of doom instead of trying to block it? Also, time constraints. The movie runs at 3 hours or something close to it as-is, there just wasn't time for them to put Yuuno in for that scene and give Nanoha time to get her second wind.
That's always been true for them.
Given that she was fighting a planet-killing artifact of doom while being barely a city-buster I'm willing to overlook things like that.
That's always been true for them.
Given that she was fighting a planet-killing artifact of doom while being barely a city-buster I'm willing to overlook things like that.
Pretty much what Nanya said. I understand that the movies were done purely for the Fate fans, which was why she was the only character to not only keep her major scenes, but also get more development. In the first movie, the title character Nanoha gets exactly 0 backstory. In the series, she at least got some backstory and reasoning for actions, in the form of her history with Arisa and Suzuka. This is important, because it was that interaction which gave her the motivation to reach out to Fate. Without it, her actions make less sense. One of the common complaints leveled at Nanoha is that she seems too mature, but her Arisa/Suzuka interaction, and the issue with her father's injury, were the prime reasons as to *why* she turned out that way. The 1st movie could have added them fairly easily, trimming some time off the Precia/Fate/Linith backstory (hell, at least trim Linith out).
The 2nd movie further removed any development from Lindy and Chrono, who had a very personal connection to the book which was never really addressed or resolved. It was kinda brought up... and left hanging. Much like Fate, Chrono was left emotionally scarred from a trauma when he was young. Unlike Fate, he gets no development or resolution to it.
And the 2nd movie also develops a huge plot hole in the form of the Wolks memories. In the series, via Vita, we learn that their memories have holes... hence why they had no way of knowing that completing the book was bad news. In the movie, it's actually reinforced that their memories are intact, and thus makes it look like the Wolks are carrying idiot balls since they are still trying to complete the book, despite knowing what it will do to Hayate. They know about NachtWal, and know it will take over. Let's be clear that the series Wolks actions are understandable, since they don't want to trust others and know that the TSAB is out to get stop them. They carry a hope that completing the book will save Hayate, and so they just need to hold out that long. In the movie, they should have known that completing the book will NOT save Hayate... thus their only option would have been to seek help from elsewhere. The big key difference is how their memories are treated, which makes them work in A's, but not in the movie.
The 2nd movie further removed any development from Lindy and Chrono, who had a very personal connection to the book which was never really addressed or resolved. It was kinda brought up... and left hanging. Much like Fate, Chrono was left emotionally scarred from a trauma when he was young. Unlike Fate, he gets no development or resolution to it.
And the 2nd movie also develops a huge plot hole in the form of the Wolks memories. In the series, via Vita, we learn that their memories have holes... hence why they had no way of knowing that completing the book was bad news. In the movie, it's actually reinforced that their memories are intact, and thus makes it look like the Wolks are carrying idiot balls since they are still trying to complete the book, despite knowing what it will do to Hayate. They know about NachtWal, and know it will take over. Let's be clear that the series Wolks actions are understandable, since they don't want to trust others and know that the TSAB is out to get stop them. They carry a hope that completing the book will save Hayate, and so they just need to hold out that long. In the movie, they should have known that completing the book will NOT save Hayate... thus their only option would have been to seek help from elsewhere. The big key difference is how their memories are treated, which makes them work in A's, but not in the movie.
There's other issues that Nanya's mostly referring to, particularly concerning Fate, such as her losing her cool in the movie and getting taken out, while in the series she kept her head and managed to fend off Signum and even wound her, which kinda diminishes Fate's capabilities.
Whereas I'm not. They should've at least kept Nanoha's abilities up to par from the source, but instead they made her look weak simply for the sake of giving Fate another moment of glory, in such a way that ALSO reflected badly on Hayate's strength of character, as in the series she stepped in and halted Reinforce herself, whereas in the movie she (surprise, surprise!) needed Fate's help to even wake up and do so.
I do feel Reinforce should've been better than Nanoha in combat, yes, but that's a complaint at the source. Unfortunately, there's no good way of fixing that short of rewriting time--impressions stick, and Nanoha made the impression that she could go toe to toe with a world-killer and save the world. And then we get "Nanoha can't win without the help of the kidnapped girl". Some people just don't care for that kind of change after a first impression.
Whereas I'm not. They should've at least kept Nanoha's abilities up to par from the source, but instead they made her look weak simply for the sake of giving Fate another moment of glory, in such a way that ALSO reflected badly on Hayate's strength of character, as in the series she stepped in and halted Reinforce herself, whereas in the movie she (surprise, surprise!) needed Fate's help to even wake up and do so.
I do feel Reinforce should've been better than Nanoha in combat, yes, but that's a complaint at the source. Unfortunately, there's no good way of fixing that short of rewriting time--impressions stick, and Nanoha made the impression that she could go toe to toe with a world-killer and save the world. And then we get "Nanoha can't win without the help of the kidnapped girl". Some people just don't care for that kind of change after a first impression.
What city-buster?
As for the Wolkenritter, no, they didn't carry the Idiot Ball in canon.
It's shown in canon that the Wolkenritter don't remember their past (they're just NOW recovering their memories by ViVid and Force) very well. Nanoha and Fate announced themselves allied with the TSAB and fought against the Wolkenritter, who didn't trust the Bureau because they were fighting against the Bureau. Plus the Wolkenritter may have been willing to listen in canon, but the Twins kept interfering, so, not only do the Wolkenritter have to worry about what the Bureau will do to Hayate, but they also have a mysterious 3rd party that wants to do something to the Book, so, yeah, they're going to be more aggressive here.
Movie? Wolkenritter were SHOWN remembering Reinforce and NachtWal, with no hint or indication that they don't remember what happens when the book was completed. They still go through and keep trying to complete the book, despite KNOWING what would happen. Then there's the fact that there's no 3rd party making them distrustful of Fate or Nanoha, who, BTW, didn't introduce themselves as allies of the Bureau. (DSA? BOO!)
Then there's Reinforce herself. In Canon, Hayate saw Nanoha and Fate kill her family, so of course she wanted to make them pay.
In the movie? Hayate saw the BOOK kill her family. So, WHY did Reinforce attack Nanoha and Fate? There's no hint that Reinforce was forced to attack, and if Hayate wanted to destroy something, why not herself?
Oh yeah, plus there's the fact that the Wolkenritter were STUPIDLY aggro in the movie compared to what they were in canon.
They were completely unsympathetic in the movie. Especially compared to canon.
As for the Wolkenritter, no, they didn't carry the Idiot Ball in canon.
It's shown in canon that the Wolkenritter don't remember their past (they're just NOW recovering their memories by ViVid and Force) very well. Nanoha and Fate announced themselves allied with the TSAB and fought against the Wolkenritter, who didn't trust the Bureau because they were fighting against the Bureau. Plus the Wolkenritter may have been willing to listen in canon, but the Twins kept interfering, so, not only do the Wolkenritter have to worry about what the Bureau will do to Hayate, but they also have a mysterious 3rd party that wants to do something to the Book, so, yeah, they're going to be more aggressive here.
Movie? Wolkenritter were SHOWN remembering Reinforce and NachtWal, with no hint or indication that they don't remember what happens when the book was completed. They still go through and keep trying to complete the book, despite KNOWING what would happen. Then there's the fact that there's no 3rd party making them distrustful of Fate or Nanoha, who, BTW, didn't introduce themselves as allies of the Bureau. (DSA? BOO!)
Then there's Reinforce herself. In Canon, Hayate saw Nanoha and Fate kill her family, so of course she wanted to make them pay.
In the movie? Hayate saw the BOOK kill her family. So, WHY did Reinforce attack Nanoha and Fate? There's no hint that Reinforce was forced to attack, and if Hayate wanted to destroy something, why not herself?
Oh yeah, plus there's the fact that the Wolkenritter were STUPIDLY aggro in the movie compared to what they were in canon.
They were completely unsympathetic in the movie. Especially compared to canon.
I really shouldn't do this, I know I shouldn't do this but I'll say it anyway.
It's about Fate and Nanoha loosing badly to Wolkies and stuff.
You seem to forget that there is an ENORMOUS difference in power and experience between the girls and Wolkies. Sure Nanoha and Fate are talented, smart, they learn fast and are hard workers. But they are just kids no matter how mature for kids they are. Wolkenritter are Centuries Old Combat Programs, even if Some of their memories were wiped they have all the accumulated experience from those centuries of fighting.
Nanoha and Fate has several years/half a year of experience as mages. They just CAN'T hope to match someone like Wolkenritter in an open fight. To me Wolkies were holding back, quite a lot actually to avoid killing/seriously harming anyone.
To me Fate breaking down is actually realistic, this girl has been through SO MUCH that a lesser being would break down and become a pathetic heap of flesh with no will to live. To be honest I found Fate's recovery from Precia's Awful Truth in the first season unrealistic. After all she has done for her mother she is told she was just a shitty replacement and got tossed away.
It's about Fate and Nanoha loosing badly to Wolkies and stuff.
You seem to forget that there is an ENORMOUS difference in power and experience between the girls and Wolkies. Sure Nanoha and Fate are talented, smart, they learn fast and are hard workers. But they are just kids no matter how mature for kids they are. Wolkenritter are Centuries Old Combat Programs, even if Some of their memories were wiped they have all the accumulated experience from those centuries of fighting.
Nanoha and Fate has several years/half a year of experience as mages. They just CAN'T hope to match someone like Wolkenritter in an open fight. To me Wolkies were holding back, quite a lot actually to avoid killing/seriously harming anyone.
To me Fate breaking down is actually realistic, this girl has been through SO MUCH that a lesser being would break down and become a pathetic heap of flesh with no will to live. To be honest I found Fate's recovery from Precia's Awful Truth in the first season unrealistic. After all she has done for her mother she is told she was just a shitty replacement and got tossed away.
Canonically the Wolkenritter were holding back, we know that much. But as it stands, in the original setting, Yuuno and Fate and Arf put up a damn good fight despite being outmatched in power (except for Yuuno, who tanked everything Vita threw at him). That leaves impressions on people, and the movie didn't help in that regard.
The series also showed us Nanoha's determination, where she forced herself to break the barrier despite a hand being through her torso. We got that taken from us, along with Nanoha's determination in the final battle, for the movie--after all, she needed to be bailed out. I can see what they were going for in the movie, but the end result didn't take certain considerations to heart and thus it came off as fan pandering for Fate fans, when combined with everything else. While that's fine for Fate fans, people who root for characters other than her feel slighted as a result.
The series also showed us Nanoha's determination, where she forced herself to break the barrier despite a hand being through her torso. We got that taken from us, along with Nanoha's determination in the final battle, for the movie--after all, she needed to be bailed out. I can see what they were going for in the movie, but the end result didn't take certain considerations to heart and thus it came off as fan pandering for Fate fans, when combined with everything else. While that's fine for Fate fans, people who root for characters other than her feel slighted as a result.
Well I understand your arguments I simply don't feel that way and... [shrugs] I'm just saying what I think, that's all really.
One more thing regarding Fate's breakdown during the first fight. Unlike in the series where Fate met Nanoha for the first time during her Big Damn Heroes Moment here she met Nanoha earlier. She got some happy moments with Nanoha, a semblance of normal life and happiness she never felt before. And then someone appeared and without provocation from her side tried to take all that away. For all she knew Nanoha might have been Dead when she saw her unconscious body.
One more thing regarding Fate's breakdown during the first fight. Unlike in the series where Fate met Nanoha for the first time during her Big Damn Heroes Moment here she met Nanoha earlier. She got some happy moments with Nanoha, a semblance of normal life and happiness she never felt before. And then someone appeared and without provocation from her side tried to take all that away. For all she knew Nanoha might have been Dead when she saw her unconscious body.
Just a sidequestion to the whole debate. What is supposed to be considered canon from now on? The movies or the TV series? Because using the series I got a lot of material and development for several characters, Nanoha herself as the prime example, but going from the movies, Nanoha is basically a "dating sim protagonist" with no characteristics more than her own description. So I really wanted to know how this would impact the rest of the series as a whole.
And yet, post cartridge-update, Nanoha and Fate DID match the Wolks easily. While it is true that the Wolks are centuries-old combat programs, they are limited in power. Otherwise, they would have been able to overpower Nanoha and Fate despite cartridges. One of the fan theories is that they were real people at one time, and so are based on that. Else, why give a combat program emotions and feelings? Why limit it to just being able to use one weapon and a few magical attacks? The Wolks were holding back a bit, but that was mainly because they didn't want to soil Hayate's future with blood, ie, they drew the line at killing.
But the cartridge angle is another reason people dislike the movie. In the series, it is shown that Nanoha and Fate could match and fight with the Wolks, until the Wolks popped cartridges and overpowered them. The defining thing, then, was the cartridge system. When given that system, now Nanoha and Fate are back up on equal footing.
In the movie, N&F are completely overpowered regardless of cartridges (such as being slower as well)... and yet once they get cartridges, suddenly they can overpower the Wolks. The cartridge system in the movie, then, is treated more like a generic shonen powerup. Something Goku would get. It doesn't quite mesh with what the cartridge system is all about: a short-term power boost. The series handles the cartridges much better, and as a result, N&F and the Wolks power levels are much more inconsistent.
They are both technically canon... just different canons. There is series canon and movie canon (and light novel canon and movie manga 1st canon). Essentially, they are AUs of each other; alternate universes. So it all depends on where you are coming from. If writing a fic, you can designate it as coming from movie canon, if you want RH with a trigger, for example. But if you want Teana, Subaru, etc., then you have to go with series canon. Oh, and if you want the Materials, you'd have to go with the game canon (which is it's own AU).
Tenchi Muyo does this, too, with several different storylines that are all technically legal, since the creator made them all. They just take place in different continuities.
But the cartridge angle is another reason people dislike the movie. In the series, it is shown that Nanoha and Fate could match and fight with the Wolks, until the Wolks popped cartridges and overpowered them. The defining thing, then, was the cartridge system. When given that system, now Nanoha and Fate are back up on equal footing.
In the movie, N&F are completely overpowered regardless of cartridges (such as being slower as well)... and yet once they get cartridges, suddenly they can overpower the Wolks. The cartridge system in the movie, then, is treated more like a generic shonen powerup. Something Goku would get. It doesn't quite mesh with what the cartridge system is all about: a short-term power boost. The series handles the cartridges much better, and as a result, N&F and the Wolks power levels are much more inconsistent.
They are both technically canon... just different canons. There is series canon and movie canon (and light novel canon and movie manga 1st canon). Essentially, they are AUs of each other; alternate universes. So it all depends on where you are coming from. If writing a fic, you can designate it as coming from movie canon, if you want RH with a trigger, for example. But if you want Teana, Subaru, etc., then you have to go with series canon. Oh, and if you want the Materials, you'd have to go with the game canon (which is it's own AU).
Tenchi Muyo does this, too, with several different storylines that are all technically legal, since the creator made them all. They just take place in different continuities.
From what I understand the Movies are just that Movies. They were made by TSAB and are slightly modified biographies of the Three Aces.
Kaijo
I must agree with that, frankly I just find it unrealistic that Fate and Nanoha could match Wolkies even with cartridges. Experience is a HUGE factor, someone with as much combat experience as Wolkies shouldn't loose to a couple of amateur kids.
But this is the way Nanoha rolls so I'm accepting it for the sake of the fun story ^^
You know... this is just a vague idea but maybe there was more to Wolkies being matched by Team Nanoha than their own holding back. In one Sound Stage Reinforce begs for someone, a god or demon to save Hayate. Perhaps on some deeper level Reinforce and Book were limiting Wolkies power as subconsciously she saw Nanoha and Fate as a chance to save Hayate? It's only fanwanking though.
Kaijo
I must agree with that, frankly I just find it unrealistic that Fate and Nanoha could match Wolkies even with cartridges. Experience is a HUGE factor, someone with as much combat experience as Wolkies shouldn't loose to a couple of amateur kids.
But this is the way Nanoha rolls so I'm accepting it for the sake of the fun story ^^
You know... this is just a vague idea but maybe there was more to Wolkies being matched by Team Nanoha than their own holding back. In one Sound Stage Reinforce begs for someone, a god or demon to save Hayate. Perhaps on some deeper level Reinforce and Book were limiting Wolkies power as subconsciously she saw Nanoha and Fate as a chance to save Hayate? It's only fanwanking though.