The MGLN Franchise

[Sunder the Gold]

And seriously the thread has now become "Nanoha Movies Discussion." Oh well...

Since the subject is the franchise as a whole, well... anything goes.

This was a problem on AnimeSuki, too. "Nanoha Franchise" is too broad, and can technically cover ANYTHING, so people post stuff in it that ought to go in more dedicated topics.

The AS Franchise Thread actually served a proper niche back when people used it to talk about sales, production costs, and why we weren't getting new animated seasons of the original continuity as opposed to new movies.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

You know, there's one thing about the Gears of Destiny game that bugged me, just a bit...

Why didn't Yuuno, Arf and the Twins face down U-D? I mean, we had Shamal, Chrono and Zafira face her down, why not those three?

The inclusion of Zafira and Shamal is especially conspicious, since the only people who were supposed to fight U-D were those with a cartridge-using Device or two Devices, in order to use the special Anti-U-D spell.

Chrono at least had S2U and Durandal. Reinforce (without Hayate) is Reinforce, and could concievably run the spell unassisted. Hayate has the Tome even without Reinforce, and Dearche has her own knock-off Tome (as well as the combined powers of Stern and Levi).

But Shamal's Device doesn't use cartridges. Zafira doesn't have any Device at all.

There's no reason why those two would get to fight, but Yuuno and Arf wouldn't. Aria and Lotte might not be willing to stick their necks out for Earth, but you couldn't KEEP Yuuno and Arf away from the battle.


Conspiracy Theory: If any medium remotely suggested that Yuuno or Arf could solo something like U-D, fans might ask why these two characters were benched instead of brought on board Riot Force 6?

 

[Kaijo]

Considering Yuuno can tank practically anything thrown his way, and can cast spells designed to keep Eldritch abominations from moving, I'd have to say the real reason Yuuno was benched, was because he'd make everything too easy. Remember, his shields were only penetrated twice... The first time with Nanoha's SLB leveling up surprisingly, coming with an anti-barrier component (caught both Yuuno and Nanoha by surprise). And the second time, he has a shield designed to keep most of the cast contained while they fought it out. Nanoha herself says she can't penetrate Yuuno's shields unless she goes full out. Yuuno was benched because I fully believe he could solo U-D, and would show just how badly the rest of the cast was for ignoring defense. It would take all the fun out of it (and he does it all without a device!)

Arf, though... that's a toughie. I think she is pretty tough, but it doesn't help that the movies robbed her of her awesomeness, either.

 

[Hoki]

There, fixed the thread description... *goes back on making post about Movie 2nd*

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Considering Yuuno can tank practically anything thrown his way, and can cast spells designed to keep Eldritch abominations from moving, I'd have to say the real reason Yuuno was benched, was because he'd make everything too easy.

It's notable that Caro has completely different methods for supporting her allies. Boost Spells and familiars, both of which revolve around hitting or shooting things.

See, she boosts the people who hit or shoot things, or she "uses her turn" to attack with Fried (or Voltaire), who hits or shoots something.

Her active defenses are only enough to defend against a fellow summoner/support-type, and her Alchemic Chain was apparently the only Capture-type spell that she could use (at least in AMF conditions).


Everyone having shields and barriers is probably too much. How can you ever hit someone, even when you manuver around their weapon, if they can just conjure a shield out of thin air?

When I converted Nanoha characters to Accel World characters, shield/barriers were the second universal power to disappear, right after "flight".

 

[Kaijo]

Oh, I know that is exactly why Yuuno had to go. His defensive power would have rendered everything too easy. But also keep in mind that Yuuno himself is fairly weak offensively. He can lash things with chains, and probably toss out a weak bullet spell, but he's mostly defensive. His strength is when you combine him in teamwork with other people; he brings the defense, and the others bring offense. Of course, given that he can forcibly teleport people, there is something to be said for forcibly teleporting them into a wall, or into an active volcano, or into space.

But getting around shields is still doable; his barriers aren't up *all* the time. Anime in particular has made a habit out of showing characters that couldn't be hurt for one reason or another, and yet the heroes managed to find a way in the end. So it all depends on imagination, thinking up ways to get around Yuuno's defenses (of which there are several).

Not sure how well I'd find converting Nanoha characters to Accel World, as the systems are vastly different, heh. Flight would certainly take away Haru's uniqueness.

 

[NTFTH]

Excluding the Sound Stages does Yuuno ever actually show the awesome defenses that most people treat him as having? It may just be because I haven't watched the anime in a really really long time, but I can't remember him doing anything in the first two seasons, other than forced teleportation, that someone else didn't do, or helped with.

 

[Rising Dragon]

In A's proper, he repeatedly fended off Vita's attacks in rapid combat, when she's already shown she can wreck Nanoha's shields.

 

[Nanya]

Excluding the Sound Stages does Yuuno ever actually show the awesome defenses that most people treat him as having? It may just be because I haven't watched the anime in a really long time, but I can't remember him doing anything in the first two seasons, other than forced teleportation, that someone else didn't do, or helped with.

Well, for one thing, he tanked Vita in A's, and he tanked the Bolt of Divine Retribution from Shamal later on...

Plus, in the manga, when Nanoha, Fate and Hayate were going all out, Chrono goes "Yuuno! Contain it!"

 

[NTFTH]

[/quote]

 

[ragnarok1337]

Most of it is extrapolating on what we DO see him do. We know he can pull off advanced mathematics in his head at high speed while focusing on other things, because Mid-Childan magic is pretty much using advanced calculus to cast spells, and Devices are more-or-less fancy magical calculators. Yuuno doesn't need one. At one point in A's we see him hovering in the Infinite Library while a dozen or so open books float around him, and he is speedreading them while doing an in-depth analysis. We see him both defend against Vita, protect Nanoha and look for the barrier's weakness at the same time, so we know he's a monster at multitasking. At the fight in the Garden of Time he is using nothing but binds to take out dozens of robot drones, and when fighting the Defense System in A's he's capable of making a bind that freezes the whole thing in place.

 

[lhklan]

Excluding the Sound Stages does Yuuno ever actually show the awesome defenses that most people treat him as having? It may just be because I haven't watched the anime in a really really long time, but I can't remember him doing anything in the first two seasons, other than forced teleportation, that someone else didn't do, or helped with.

The Fate VS Signum fight. In the background, you can see two lights heading straight for each other, one green and one red.

Also, he also tanked Shamal's Thunder of Destruction - going by the wiki here - using Sphere Protection.

Though to me he's less about defense and more multitask.

 

[Kaijo]

Not sure why'd you exclude sound stages, as people describing someone else's abilities is fair grist to mull over. Though that is where Nanoha says she can't penetrate Yuuno's shields unless she goes full out.

Also, one other thing to keep in mind, is that Yuuno does all the things he does without a device. Devices are pretty much said to increase the output one can put out, assist with spellcasting, function as a weapon itself, etc.

Also, Movie 2nd, Yuuno quickly casts a spell, Caging Circle, that prevents the Eldritch abomination from moving from it's spot. It only is able to finally move when Fate's attack destroys the circle.

 

[Kireen]

Kind of late to the party, but uhm... I have to agree that the Movies weren't exactly good, the fist one problem was the lack of Nanoha characterization, and the second one wasted lots of interesting possbiliies, I mean it would have been cool to see Lindy fight and explore a bit the Harlaown family history.

Continueing witht he second, I'm kinda disappointed at the fact that Yuuno was nearly completely removed, I found his presence usefull it the first fight with the wolkies, In the movie NAnoha and FAte looked kinda pathetic against the knights, and regarding the fight, the fist ones were not as good as the A's ones. To add another problem, I found it supid to remove Graham and substitute it with the unholy child of a pilebunker and a tentacle monster, yes it was kinda cool, but I found the series plot just better.

That said I know that the movie was just made to milk the fans, I should have just known better before getting hyped for it.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Well, for one thing, he tanked Vita in A's, and he tanked the Bolt of Divine Retribution from Shamal later on...

While at the same time remotely defending three seperate targets.

No one else in the series has demonstrated the ability to create even a single protective barrier at a distance around another person, let alone three at such a range.

Plus, in the manga, when Nanoha, Fate and Hayate were going all out, Chrono goes "Yuuno! Contain it!"

And Chrono makes no move to reinforce him, and doesn't seem worried in the slightest. Despite seeing exactly the kind of destruction those three girls threw at the Defense Program, Chrono is fully confident that Yuuno could handle that.

Personally, I think they were both handed an Overconfidence Ball for Rule of Funny. Even if Yuuno's defense is equal to the offense of even one of those girls, it certainly wouldn't be equal to all THREE of them. (Granted, he didn't have to tank the blasts directly, just contain the backlash of two spells colliding.)

But what if Yuuno HADN'T contained the destruction?

Back during Fate's trials, as she recovered her health, Chrono's containment fields could not longer prevent her magic from damaging the training rooms. His solution was to call Yuuno in to do it, since Scrya was better at field magic.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Problem is, Andarion, the Wolkenritter, in canon, don't have any memories, nor experiences when they fought against Nanoha, Fate, Arf and Yuuno, as they're blank slates each time they reincarnate.

I can't speak for the movie, but that's demonstrably untrue for the original continuity.

Vita's sidestory in Vivid is the the one bit of evidence that the Wolkenritter have forgotten ANYTHING of their career, and it's also the same story that has Vita remember the various masters they served and battles they fought.

Vita admits that they never remembered (or learned) what exactly happened to their masters upon completing the book, but otherwise her only memory problems seem to stem from there being so MANY masters and incarnations to remember that it all kind of runs together.

Like I said before, they don't remember anything when they reincarnate, thus are blank slates.

it took them over 10 years to get ANY sort of memories back (Vita and Rein Zwei's talk during StrikerS for example).

And, think about the fact that the book reincarnates much faster than 10 years each time...

Oh, you're not suggesting that memories got erased.

Still, they have their memories from before the Book, or else how would Vita and Zafira know about Ancient Belkan jokes?

 

[Nanya]

Problem is, Andarion, the Wolkenritter, in canon, don't have any memories, nor experiences when they fought against Nanoha, Fate, Arf and Yuuno, as they're blank slates each time they reincarnate.

I can't speak for the movie, but that's demonstrably untrue for the original continuity.

Vita's sidestory in Vivid is the the one bit of evidence that the Wolkenritter have forgotten ANYTHING of their career, and it's also the same story that has Vita remember the various masters they served and battles they fought.

Vita admits that they never remembered (or learned) what exactly happened to their masters upon completing the book, but otherwise her only memory problems seem to stem from there being so MANY masters and incarnations to remember that it all kind of runs together.

Like I said before, they don't remember anything when they reincarnate, thus are blank slates.

it took them over 10 years to get ANY sort of memories back (Vita and Rein Zwei's talk during StrikerS for example).

And, think about the fact that the book reincarnates much faster than 10 years each time...

Oh, you're not suggesting that memories got erased.

Still, they have their memories from before the Book, or else how would Vita and Zafira know about Ancient Belkan jokes?

Um... That was a late night TV joke that Vita tried to pass off as an Ancient Belkan saying.

Zafira: You saw that on TV last night, and you got the punchline wrong.
Vita: That's besides the point!

 

[Hoki]

Oh joy, here I go again, this time its the 2nd movie. And since this will probably restart the movie debate, I'll just make a comparison so as to not make too much fuss. Get a snack and a drink, this will be long.

Although I can live with the other points raised in the previous posts about the movie, the one thing that I will take a shot at is the claim that Nanoha is weaker in the movie than in the series. this probably stems from the following scenes that were played differently in the movie and the series; first is the first meeting of Nanoha, Fate and the Wolkenritter and second is the battle with the Book of Darkness. Lets compare.

Part one

Spoiler

First would be the first encounter between Nanoha and Vita. In the series, Nanoha gets trounced, but manages to stay conscious and even tries weakly to resist. In the movie, she gets trounced and gets knocked out. Does the movie really show that Nanoha is weak because she got knocked out? How about the possibility of Vita being stronger, or at least wielding a far superior weapon? Doesn't that count as well? Because I think the movie depicts the superiority of the cartridge system in comparison to normal equipment better than in the series. The movie showed Vita both breaking Nanoha's barrier AND knocking her out, which is a testament to how outclassed Nanoha was in terms of equipment that time, while she remained conscious in the series. As somebody already pointed out, if you want to show a new villain, make them a credible threat. While it does take away Nanoha's determinator trait (which is most evident in her firing a Starlight Breaker while getting her linker core drained, shown to be a painful experience) it also shows that the Wolkies, with their fully functional cartridge-system devices are dangerous enough to endanger the heroine's life.

Spoiler

Part two of this would be Fate vs Signum, In their first encounter in the series, Signum also wasn't able to knock Fate out, and she's the leader of the Wolkenritter and recognized as their best warrior, but got scratched after the battle by a mage far less skilled than her. Heck She wasn't even the one who took out Fate, but the Masked Man via surprise linker core grab. In the movie, she displays how outclassed Fate was both in terms of strength and skill by effortlessly parrying Fate's attacks, only commenting how skilled Fate was by managing to cut her jacket and ONLY her jacket. She also took advantage of the fact of Fate's lack of focus for the easy win, like how a veteran warrior should. So, is Signum weaker in the series than in the movie? Is Fate weaker in the movie than in the series? Again, establishing character moments is what sets the difference.

Part two

Spoiler

Then we have the Nanoha and Fate vs Book of Darkness. In the series, it was 4 people vs B.o.D. To show how powerful B.o.D is these things take place:
*She engages Fate in a short skirmish, apparently so that Arf and Yuuno could bind her. They succeed but it proves to be ineffective as she breaks them without a sweat.
*Shields herself from Nanoha and Fate's attacks, again without showing any visible effort. She even has the time to invoke Bloody Dagger.
*After hitting her opponents, she decides to go for the kill and casts Starlight Breaker, prompting the four of them to flee as far as they could. She only fires when Nanoha and Fate stand still because of Arisa and Suzuka (for reasons all of us can only speculate on) being inside the magical prison, despite being muggles.

While the above mentioned is impressive, it only showcased how insanely powerful B.o.D is but seemed to show that she only relied on raw power. Nanoha and Fate could've attacked her while she was in the middle of casting because we have only seen one kind of Starlight Breaker: the wave motion gun type. Why she even chose a spell that takes ages to charge without binding her enemies first, as Nanoha liked to do, eludes me. The only excuse I can think of is Fate's comment about B.o.D being good at wide area bombardment, but that still doesn't fully explain how they knew it would be a Starlight Breaker Bomb and acted accordingly. Hell, the cast time was so long that if Arisa and Suzuka weren't there, it would've been useless, as Arf and Yuuno were able to get miles away from the blast radius.

Spoiler

In the movie, it was 2 on 1, and to show B.o.D's strength, the following events took place:
*She separates Nanoha and Fate by summoning fire pillars, then she goes for Nanoha first, as she was a ranged type, and takes her out with one punch.
*Catches Fate's crescent saber effortlessly and, showing that she can read her moves, throws it back to her as soon as she appears behind her, immediately following it up with a small bolt that blows Fate away.
*Immediately turns her attention to Nanoha, and while the combination surprised her, shows how badass she is by effortlessly breaking both binds at once and immediately shielding herself, showing not even an ounce of effort in blocking two powerful beams.
*While blocking, she goes for the counter offensive by bloody dagger without even aiming but relying on the direction of the beams coming at her as a guide. She hits, then casts Arf's chain bind and captures both Nanoha and Fate, again without even looking at either of them. She throws them both on the ground and to add insult to injury, binds them with their own spells.

Pretty flashy isn't it? But aside from the flashiness of the events, it also shows that B.o.D is a being truly capable of destroying worlds and smart enough to handle multiple enemies with ease, and in no way shows that our heroines are weak. Well compared to her they would be, anyway.

part three

Spoiler

Finally, the one-on-one fight between Nanoha and B.o.D. The apparent gauge here is the Excelion Buster Charge so again let's compare

* In the series, Nanoha charges at B.o.D who blocks the attack, not even moving from her place. She pierces B.o.D's shield, fires, blows herself back a few paces and when she looks up, B.o.D not only wasn't scratched, she didn't even move an inch from her place.
*In the movie Nanoha charges at B.o.D who blocks the attack, but for the first time, is shown to put some effort in doing so, while she gets pushed through several rock pillars, by a nine year old. Nanoha finally pins B.o.D on a very large rock pillar, pierces her shield, fires and destroys the pillar she pinned B.o.D on. Again, B.o.D rises from the ruins without a scratch, but her gauntlet is shown to have returned to its snakey original form, with later scenes showing that Nachtwal did not return in gauntlet form.

See the difference? Yes the movie version is more flashy, as always, but compare what Nanoha did, Movie!Nanoha actually managed to make a being leagues more powerful than her show effort in defending an attack. In addition to the above scenarios...

*In the series, we are never shown the effects of Nanoha's failed charge as Hayate immediately took control and stopped B.o.D from moving. We would only learn its effects (in addition to others) in StrikerS.
*In the movie, the reason why Nanoha was getting curbstomped is because she was still feeling the effects of her slightly successful charge. Heck even then she's still able to defend herself successfully at times.

So is Nanoha, and some of the characters included here really weaker in the movies? Were they weaker in the series?
Why am I asking you these questions? To me, they are the same as always, so I can't really say. It's just how they are shown in the movie and the series that shows how strong or weak they are. I'll predict that some of you will point out that I am implying that Movie!Nanoha is stronger, so I'll say fine, whatever. Like I said in the beginning, all I did was compare the scenarios. Don't read too much into it.

 

[Nanya]

Problem is, Hoki, the Wolkenritter, in the series, retreated before they could do any lasting damage to Nanoha due to the Barrier being shattered as she was being drained.

Here, they had no reason to stop, at all.

Yes, we know it was because they didn't want to stain Hayate's hands with blood, but they had no reason to stop draining Nanoha, Fate or Arf in the movie, especially considering that Nanoha is a lot weaker in the movie than she is in the series. Seeing as the Wolkenritter drained all three right away, if you watched the movie without knowing about the series or the Wolkenritter's past, you would wonder why they would let Nanoha, Fate and Arf go (and why the HELL was Arf and Fate able to recover so fucking fast from being drained?!) like they did. We don't find out until about half way through the movie, but, still, again, in the series, it made more sense, since, well, they left before draining Nanoha too far, THEN we learn that they didn't want to hurt anyone permanently. Plus the cartridge system is WAAAAY too over-powered in the movie compared to the series. Case in point, Yuuno, Zafira, Shamal, Caro, Lutecia, Rio, Corona, Einhart, Vivio all do pretty neat stuff without the cartridge system in place, and even Subaru, Teana and Erio, with Cartridges, couldn't match Nanoha and Fate at 9 years old without them in the series. In the movies, the cartridge system was just... WAAAAY too powered up. Plus, Fate losing her cool? Whut? I'm sorry, Fate's that girl who keeps her head about her at almost all times, not that screaming emo brat I saw on the screen.

And, establishing character moments is the problem in the movies.

Nanoha still lacks one, and the thing is, we KNOW that Yuuno and Arf get shuttered away after A's, as does Lindy and Chrono, this was the last chance any of those four had to do anything and the movie basically craps on them hard.

Nanoha still has no backstory, no motivation, no nothing to show me why she's the way she is in the movie.

So, when Nanoha, who has shown me no reason to think that she's capable of doing anything like she did in the series, is fighting Reinforce one-on-one, everything she does doesn't make me think that she's more capable or powerful than she was in canon at that point, it just comes across as an asspull.

 

[Hoki]

@ Nanya
Kukuku...I actually was expecting you to reply first, my rival...

Well I'm not going to argue as again, it was a comparison from my point of view. I'm not somebody who would push my idea and make people say "wow, so that's whats wrong with it." That's a priest's job.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Um... That was a late night TV joke that Vita tried to pass off as an Ancient Belkan saying.

Zafira: You saw that on TV last night, and you got the punchline wrong.
Vita: That's besides the point!

I'll go further and point out that, since all memories after being enslaved are suppressed at the end of each incarnation, the memories of their human lives would have been kept fresh throughout the millenia, as the ONLY memories they could access.

And if they didn't have human lives, then they would have had ANY memories at all. They would also have no reason to self-identify as Knights (or Guardian Beasts) of Ancient Belka.

Signum would not ask Laevantein if the blade had ever known her to hesistate.

 

[Kaijo]

@Hoki

For me, at least, the question of strength isn't one of the biggest negatives against the movies. It's more about the actions that speak about their character and possibilities. For instance, Nanoha's SLB at the start, spoke volumes about her character. With that gone, and with her needing Fate's help at the end, Nanoha has become less the "girl who could" to "the girl who can't anymore."

It's more about the cartridge system itself, and how it is handled, that determines the power question for me. As noted before, the Wolkies in the series could be conceivably matched without the cartridge system in play; the series gives a good impression in that regard. Which makes sense; without a cartridge boosting it, a spell can be countered by another normal spell. Nanoha and Fate are clearly beaten down, not so much through sheer power and skill, but mostly due to cartridge-powered spells overpowering them. So, when they get cartridges as well, that puts them back up on a normal footing. In the movie, cartridges are treated more like a shonen power-up. It makes less sense that the cartridge system itself would cause that huge degree of natural ability enhancement.

See, Nanoha and Fate need to be able to fight Signum and Vita more evenly, so they need to be at least close to similar power levels. Otherwise, the story would venture into Villain Sue territory. The difference, that which makes the Wolkies initially unbeatable, was to be the cartridge system. In the series, it was treated as the spell-enhancement that it was... not a body and natural power level enhancement.

As Nanya pointed out, in the series, several people have high power and don't use cartridges. And some people have cartridges, but are still weaker than others. Cartridges do not grant you an instant 10 levels... they are just a tool that can help boost up some of your spells.

I will say this, though... Movie Nanoha has lost spells. Series Nanoha had Flash Move, Flash Impact, Area Search, Barrel Shot, and Excelion Buster (both normal and Force Burst versions). In that respect, movie Nanoha is "weaker."

 

[Hoki]

Nanoha in the movie was also able to defend herself against Vita normally, that is until she blew her hat off and got a taste of the rocket powered Graf Eisen. After getting RH upgraded, she was back in normal footing. So you are saying that just because Vita managed to knock her out in the movie, or that Nanoha managed to make Reinforce put effort in defending the Excelion Buster Charge, the cartridge system is depicted as a shonen type powerup?

What is a "shonen type powerup" anyway? Is it something that boosts a character's physical and in this case, magical power to godly levels so they can kick their opponent in one shot, then becomes ineffective in the next season, like the SSJ forms. Is it something that the protagonist uses or absorbs so that he can temporarily get an edge over the big bad, like how Natsu of Fairy Tail eats flames to regain his strength. Is it like the fire flower? Is it supposed to be flashy and accompanied by background music?

The cartridge system was depicted the same way as they were in the series: instant power boosters and the difference maker in Nanoha and Vita's first fight, not some random powerup from out of nowhere as in the cases of most shonen series.

 

[Kaijo]

I'll grant that Nanoha and Vita were handled similarly (albeit much more quickly and brutally)... but Signum and Fate were not. Fate, in the series, is able to go toe-to-toe with Signum and even deliver a hit (to her body; in the movie, Fate only nicks Signum's barrier jacket); she was only oumatched when the cartridges were used. Fate in the movie was smacked down, repeatedly. A single, normal sword strike was enough to send her into a building.

Edit: When we talk "shonen power up" we refer to either a one-time event, or a training montage or technique, that drastically ups a characters normal power rating and/or skill. We're referring to their base level. The cartridge system, in the series, is not something that affects your base capabilities, ie, the amount of power your body can put out. It is purely an external source, coming into play only on specific spells.

Remember that blocked sword strike that sent Fate careening into a building at the start? In the second match, it doesn't propel Fate nearly quite as far. Signum even comments, "You've improved a lot. You must've trained quite a bit."

How? The only "training" we saw was the two jumping around with sticks, powerless. Sure, maybe it helped a little, but the effect would have only been negligible. So Fate's base power and skill has risen, and the only real difference is the cartridge system.... which makes it a shonen power up that it wasn't before. The cartridge system does not automatically increase your base power and skill. It did in the movie, as Fate and Signum clearly demonstrate.

 

[Hoki]

"...or did you just lose your head last time?" would be the continuation of that line.

Yes, Fate was, in fact, not in a good state of metal preparedness during her first fight with Signum, since first, she was worried about Nanoha, her worries compounded by the fact that she was not responding and Bardiche's report that RH too, wasn't. Second, she did not know what her opponent is capable of, or even if she does figure out that Signum is physically stronger than her at first glance, she still does not know by about how much, and whether or not she's faster. I'm certain you have been in a fistfight, so I'm sure you would understand that you can be knocked back by a blow from somebody you have never seen before, simply on the grounds that you do not know how strong your opponent is. The same idea applies there. Finally, what seals the deal with Fate is when she sees Nanoha down and out, she completely loses her head, rushing blindly to her friend and totally ignores Signum who makes her pay by sending her to the ground.

The next time they meet, Fate already has an idea of how strong Signum is, thus can now defend herself properly, yet she still reels from some of the blows she gets, so clearly the upgrade she got had absolutely nothing to do with her physical capabilities. It was her state of mind that set the difference between the first and second matches. And Fate's response to Signum? "Yes, I've trained a bit, and I'm also better prepared," clearly showing that she's mentally focused now, even going so far as to claim victory.