The MGLN Franchise
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Problem is, Andarion, the Wolkenritter, in canon, don't have any memories, nor experiences when they fought against Nanoha, Fate, Arf and Yuuno, as they're blank slates each time they reincarnate.
Besides, let me point out that the cartridge system gave Nanoha and Fate WAY too much of a boost in the movie.
Besides, let me point out that the cartridge system gave Nanoha and Fate WAY too much of a boost in the movie.
Nanya said:
Problem is, Andarion, the Wolkenritter, in canon, don't have any memories, nor experiences when they fought against Nanoha, Fate, Arf and Yuuno, as they're blank slates each time they reincarnate.
Besides, let me point out that the cartridge system gave Nanoha and Fate WAY too much of a boost in the movie.
Besides, let me point out that the cartridge system gave Nanoha and Fate WAY too much of a boost in the movie.
Andarion said:
Nanya said:
Problem is, Andarion, the Wolkenritter, in canon, don't have any memories, nor experiences when they fought against Nanoha, Fate, Arf and Yuuno, as they're blank slates each time they reincarnate.
Besides, let me point out that the cartridge system gave Nanoha and Fate WAY too much of a boost in the movie.
Besides, let me point out that the cartridge system gave Nanoha and Fate WAY too much of a boost in the movie.
Nanya said:
Problem is, Andarion, the Wolkenritter, in canon, don't have any memories, nor experiences when they fought against Nanoha, Fate, Arf and Yuuno, as they're blank slates each time they reincarnate.
Vita's sidestory in Vivid is the the one bit of evidence that the Wolkenritter have forgotten ANYTHING of their career, and it's also the same story that has Vita remember the various masters they served and battles they fought.
Vita admits that they never remembered (or learned) what exactly happened to their masters upon completing the book, but otherwise her only memory problems seem to stem from there being so MANY masters and incarnations to remember that it all kind of runs together.
I don't think they're complete memory wipes, but we do know there's enough missing to ensure they can't fix the problem on their own. And even then they're not unstoppable--the Book had to have been captured in the previous cycle, so I imagine the Bureau had to strike down the Wolkenritter to do so.
Andarion said:
Nanya said:
Problem is, Andarion, the Wolkenritter, in canon, don't have any memories, nor experiences when they fought against Nanoha, Fate, Arf and Yuuno, as they're blank slates each time they reincarnate.
Besides, let me point out that the cartridge system gave Nanoha and Fate WAY too much of a boost in the movie.
Besides, let me point out that the cartridge system gave Nanoha and Fate WAY too much of a boost in the movie.
Sunder the Gold said:
Nanya said:
Problem is, Andarion, the Wolkenritter, in canon, don't have any memories, nor experiences when they fought against Nanoha, Fate, Arf and Yuuno, as they're blank slates each time they reincarnate.
Vita's sidestory in Vivid is the the one bit of evidence that the Wolkenritter have forgotten ANYTHING of their career, and it's also the same story that has Vita remember the various masters they served and battles they fought.
Vita admits that they never remembered (or learned) what exactly happened to their masters upon completing the book, but otherwise her only memory problems seem to stem from there being so MANY masters and incarnations to remember that it all kind of runs together.
it took them over 10 years to get ANY sort of memories back (Vita and Rein Zwei's talk during StrikerS for example).
And, think about the fact that the book reincarnates much faster than 10 years each time...
Kaijo said:
Pretty much what Nanya said. I understand that the movies were done purely for the Fate fans, which was why she was the only character to not only keep her major scenes, but also get more development. In the first movie, the title character Nanoha gets exactly 0 backstory. In the series, she at least got some backstory and reasoning for actions, in the form of her history with Arisa and Suzuka. This is important, because it was that interaction which gave her the motivation to reach out to Fate. Without it, her actions make less sense. One of the common complaints leveled at Nanoha is that she seems too mature, but her Arisa/Suzuka interaction, and the issue with her father's injury, were the prime reasons as to *why* she turned out that way. The 1st movie could have added them fairly easily, trimming some time off the Precia/Fate/Linith backstory (hell, at least trim Linith out).
The 2nd movie further removed any development from Lindy and Chrono, who had a very personal connection to the book which was never really addressed or resolved. It was kinda brought up... and left hanging. Much like Fate, Chrono was left emotionally scarred from a trauma when he was young. Unlike Fate, he gets no development or resolution to it.
The 2nd movie further removed any development from Lindy and Chrono, who had a very personal connection to the book which was never really addressed or resolved. It was kinda brought up... and left hanging. Much like Fate, Chrono was left emotionally scarred from a trauma when he was young. Unlike Fate, he gets no development or resolution to it.
And the 2nd movie also develops a huge plot hole in the form of the Wolks memories. In the series, via Vita, we learn that their memories have holes... hence why they had no way of knowing that completing the book was bad news. In the movie, it's actually reinforced that their memories are intact, and thus makes it look like the Wolks are carrying idiot balls since they are still trying to complete the book, despite knowing what it will do to Hayate.
That too. Fate busting out of the Dream Eater hurt both Nanoha and Hayate's moment from canon onscreen.
There's other issues that Nanya's mostly referring to, particularly concerning Fate, such as her losing her cool in the movie and getting taken out, while in the series she kept her head and managed to fend off Signum and even wound her, which kinda diminishes Fate's capabilities.
Whereas I'm not. They should've at least kept Nanoha's abilities up to par from the source, but instead they made her look weak simply for the sake of giving Fate another moment of glory
What city-buster?
They were completely unsympathetic in the movie. Especially compared to canon.
Andarion said:
Nanya said:
Reinforce doesn't, the Eternal Darkness (Yuri if you go by the games) does.
@Smuthunter... You mean that giant ball of cotton candy that Nanoha fired at Fate that was big and... Did nothing much.
Andarion said:
frankly I just find it unrealistic that Fate and Nanoha could match Wolkies even with cartridges. Experience is a HUGE factor, someone with as much combat experience as Wolkies shouldn't loose to a couple of amateur kids.
The only Capture-type spell that Zafira has ever shown conjures blades that hold the target in place by STABBING them.
Further, their centuries of experience have conditioned them to cripple, maim and kill. Not only do they lack experience with defeating foes with a minimum of permanent injury, they have to actively FIGHT their own reflexes to leave Nanoha and Fate alive.
On top of that, the Wolkenritter are not as motivated to fight Nanoha and Fate as the kids are motivated to fight them. The Wolkenritter want to save Hayate, but they don't want to kill these kids to do it.
Nanoha and Fate don't have to worry about killing the Wolkenritter, because their magic and fighting styles are generally non-lethal even at full power. They can put their whole heart into attacking without hestitation or holding back.
I'll also note that Nanoha and Fate never actually beat Signum or Vita (that was the twins at work). The girls surprised the knights with new capabilities after the upgrade, but that doesn't mean that Signum and Vita wouldn't have adapted and turned the tables again.
Sunder the Gold said:
Andarion said:
frankly I just find it unrealistic that Fate and Nanoha could match Wolkies even with cartridges. Experience is a HUGE factor, someone with as much combat experience as Wolkies shouldn't loose to a couple of amateur kids.
The only Capture-type spell that Zafira has ever shown conjures blades that hold the target in place by STABBING them.
Further, their centuries of experience have conditioned them to cripple, maim and kill. Not only do they lack experience with defeating foes with a minimum of permanent injury, they have to actively FIGHT their own reflexes to leave Nanoha and Fate alive.
On top of that, the Wolkenritter are not as motivated to fight Nanoha and Fate as the kids are motivated to fight them. The Wolkenritter want to save Hayate, but they don't want to kill these kids to do it.
Nanoha and Fate don't have to worry about killing the Wolkenritter, because their magic and fighting styles are generally non-lethal even at full power. They can put their whole heart into attacking without hestitation or holding back.
I'll also note that Nanoha and Fate never actually beat Signum or Vita (that was the twins at work). The girls surprised the knights with new capabilities after the upgrade, but that doesn't mean that Signum and Vita wouldn't have adapted and turned the tables again.
Smuthunter said:
Reduced character development is a weird problem to have with a story which is a retelling of things you already know. As for Chrono and Lindy, I didn't watch the 2nd Movie so I could learn more about the side characters, I wanted to see the fight scenes reanimated and I wasn't disappointed at any point of the movie. Would it have been neat if Lindy had thrown down with Signum in that one scene on the rooftop? Sure, I'll give you that one. But character development? I got all that from the tv series.
Question: Would you have been satisfied then, if they cut all of Fate's development and backstory from the 1st movie? As long as there was action, you don't care who is developed and who isn't?
Regardless of that, realize that there are people who like seeing development. For many people, like myself, Nanoha herself was the huge draw to this franchise. And to see her role get drastically cut and diminished, is an uncomfortable thing to see.
And the 2nd movie also develops a huge plot hole in the form of the Wolks memories. In the series, via Vita, we learn that their memories have holes... hence why they had no way of knowing that completing the book was bad news. In the movie, it's actually reinforced that their memories are intact, and thus makes it look like the Wolks are carrying idiot balls since they are still trying to complete the book, despite knowing what it will do to Hayate.
Smuthunter said:
Kaijo said:
Pretty much what Nanya said. I understand that the movies were done purely for the Fate fans, which was why she was the only character to not only keep her major scenes, but also get more development. In the first movie, the title character Nanoha gets exactly 0 backstory. In the series, she at least got some backstory and reasoning for actions, in the form of her history with Arisa and Suzuka. This is important, because it was that interaction which gave her the motivation to reach out to Fate. Without it, her actions make less sense. One of the common complaints leveled at Nanoha is that she seems too mature, but her Arisa/Suzuka interaction, and the issue with her father's injury, were the prime reasons as to *why* she turned out that way. The 1st movie could have added them fairly easily, trimming some time off the Precia/Fate/Linith backstory (hell, at least trim Linith out).
The 2nd movie further removed any development from Lindy and Chrono, who had a very personal connection to the book which was never really addressed or resolved. It was kinda brought up... and left hanging. Much like Fate, Chrono was left emotionally scarred from a trauma when he was young. Unlike Fate, he gets no development or resolution to it.
The 2nd movie further removed any development from Lindy and Chrono, who had a very personal connection to the book which was never really addressed or resolved. It was kinda brought up... and left hanging. Much like Fate, Chrono was left emotionally scarred from a trauma when he was young. Unlike Fate, he gets no development or resolution to it.
And the 2nd movie also develops a huge plot hole in the form of the Wolks memories. In the series, via Vita, we learn that their memories have holes... hence why they had no way of knowing that completing the book was bad news. In the movie, it's actually reinforced that their memories are intact, and thus makes it look like the Wolks are carrying idiot balls since they are still trying to complete the book, despite knowing what it will do to Hayate.
There was no line about them forgetting what happens when the book is completed, thus, well.. It really hurts their characterization.
That too. Fate busting out of the Dream Eater hurt both Nanoha and Hayate's moment from canon onscreen.
There's other issues that Nanya's mostly referring to, particularly concerning Fate, such as her losing her cool in the movie and getting taken out, while in the series she kept her head and managed to fend off Signum and even wound her, which kinda diminishes Fate's capabilities.
Time Constraints don't mean much when you can point out several things that could be removed to make things better. So, no, time constraints don't work in this context.
Whereas I'm not. They should've at least kept Nanoha's abilities up to par from the source, but instead they made her look weak simply for the sake of giving Fate another moment of glory
Kaijo said:
The movie is not the series. It doesn't take place in the same continuity. As a completely new entity, it is required, on a literary level, to have a level of consistency and development for the characters that it introduces. I can understand going, "Came for the booms, left satisfied." That's certainly a justifiable personal opinion. But it *is* possible to have booms and proper character development.
Question: Would you have been satisfied then, if they cut all of Fate's development and backstory from the 1st movie? As long as there was action, you don't care who is developed and who isn't?
Smuthunter said:
Kaijo said:
Question: Would you have been satisfied then, if they cut all of Fate's development and backstory from the 1st movie? As long as there was action, you don't care who is developed and who isn't?
They cut out Nanoha's development and backstory by cutting out her friends and family in the first movie.
Okay, I need to stop, otherwise this thread will go into pure flames.
So, I'll just say this, there were good moments in the A's movie, the animation was gorgeous, Reinforce's outfit and device were really cool, and the effects of Durandal and Mystellien was beautiful, I did like Bardiche's new look and Lindy facing down the Wolkenritter was awesome.
However, that's so minor compared to the lame action, bland music (I can only remember Snow Rain, the rest was so unforgettable that it wasn't good) and the cut badass scenes (Nanoha's determinator moment from the start of A's was cut, which was one of her defining moments in canon) really hurts the movies completely.
So, yeah, I'm done with the movies discussion, otherwise we'll get into a flame war.
If you want more details about my thoughts, PM me for my review of the A's movie.
Smuthunter said:
Kaijo said:
The movie is not the series. It doesn't take place in the same continuity. As a completely new entity, it is required, on a literary level, to have a level of consistency and development for the characters that it introduces. I can understand going, "Came for the booms, left satisfied." That's certainly a justifiable personal opinion. But it *is* possible to have booms and proper character development.
You seem to think it is impossible to have a movie and have it internally consistent and give development to the main characters affected. If this is incorrect, please tell me, because I'll have to tell you that it is very much possible.
That's an unfair comparison You can't cut Fate's development and backstory from the first movie without also cutting out the entire conflict with Precia and turning the story into "Nanoha collects Jewel Seeds for 2.5 hours".
You know, there's one thing about the Gears of Destiny game that bugged me, just a bit...
Why didn't Yuuno, Arf and the Twins face down U-D? I mean, we had Shamal, Chrono and Zafira face her down, why not those three?
Would have loved to have taken on U-D's second round with Yuuno and first round with the Twins, not sure where Arf would have fought though, probably second round.
Why didn't Yuuno, Arf and the Twins face down U-D? I mean, we had Shamal, Chrono and Zafira face her down, why not those three?
Would have loved to have taken on U-D's second round with Yuuno and first round with the Twins, not sure where Arf would have fought though, probably second round.
Smuthunter said:
That's an unfair comparison You can't cut Fate's development and backstory from the first movie without also cutting out the entire conflict with Precia and turning the story into "Nanoha collects Jewel Seeds for 2.5 hours".
Which matches what he said about those people who cared less about character development than about action and spectacle.