Naruto The Narutoversity

[Altered Nova]

The Naruversity

Yeah earth and water jutsu do seem to have an advantage over other elemental ninjutsu types in that while they can be used to produce fake chakra earth and water, they mostly involve manipulating existing matter rather than producing a temporary chakra construct that mimics the properties of real matter. That's why Gaara was the only Kage able to touch Madara with his ninjutsu - the Rinnegan's Preta Path ability was unable to absorb his sand because it was real solid sand, while it absorbed both the Mizukage's water and the Raikage's lightning because those were chakra constructs.

I think you are correct about both explanations for the base 5/6 limit on element types. I think the Sage invented and standardized those 5/6 basic types, and the newly chakra using ninja stuck to those simplified teachings and were forced to use handseals for them all because they didn't *have* affinities yet. Over centuries of using ninjutsu the types of chakra they used started to affect their DNA, and ninja families developed affinities for the elemental types they favored. These new and growing affinities permitted them to invent new elemental training techniques that allowed them to elementally transform their chakra without handseals. Those 5/6 basic chakra types were used so widely that affinities for them spread into the gene pools for every nation, though they were still not evenly spread. (wind is rare outside of Sunagakure, and all of the 5 great nations still favor one elemental type over the others to the point they were named for that element)

Later on ninja started experimenting with new element types like shadow manipulation, medical chakra, toad oil, syrup release, etc. However those chakra types are much younger and the clans using them have not had enough time to develop affinities for them, so they haven't been able to develop nature transformation training for them. Because they cannot be used without handseals and they aren't widespread, the wider ninja world academia does not consider them to be "official" elemental nature types.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

The Naruversity

Actually, I think Madara wouldn't have been able to absorb a Suiton, if it was made using a preexistent water source. Same for any other element.

Or, more spefically: he'd be able to absorb the chakra fueling the jutsu, but not the actual not-chakra matter, getting a money shot from a 200kmh fast water dragon bullet.

Also, Wind chakra is likely to be used mostly with actual air instead of "chakra air"

 

[Knyght]

The Naruversity

Other than Katon and Raiton since they all seem to be "created" rather than "manipulated". Probably because they're energy types.

I said half-and-half since a lot of the jutsu involve first inhaling the air and then expelling it from their body. Other elemental jutsu usually just involve either manipulating the element directly or creating it from their body; several wind jutsu seem to do both.

I wonder how that developing affinity theory could relate to the origin of elemental kekkei genkai. Hashirama shows that it can happen through natural mutation as opposed to it being an artificial creation but they could have various sources. Perhaps certain clans specialised in two nature transformations and, like the development of their affinity, their continued usage eventually resulted in their genes becoming capable of using both simultaneously to create an advanced element.

 

[Altered Nova]

The Naruversity

There probably are Katon and Raiton jutsu that manipulate existing fire and electricity rather than creating chakra that mimics those energies - in fact Sasuke's Kirin jutsu is exactly that, a Raiton that calls down a real thunderbolt. Presumably Madara would not be able to absorb Kirin either. They are just rare because it's not exactly easy to carry fire and electricity around with you. Perhaps if a ninja summoned a furnace or one of those chakra batteries (or strapped them to their back like Gaara does with his sand) they could use such jutsu more easily. It's just not usually worth the effort because ninjutsu absorbing techniques are extremely rare and real fire and electricity are harder to control and probably more prone to backfiring on the user.

I think that most of the elemental kekkei genkai are probably at least partially artificial in nature, because those ninja don't just get to use advanced elemental natures, they also have that "instinctive understanding of nature transformation" thing going for them.

By artificial I don't mean just gene therapy and genetic engineering, though I'm sure there's some of that happening too. I mean eugenics. We've already seen that some clans like the Hyuuga very strictly control their members freedom and presumably their reproductive choices in order to keep their kekkei genkai exclusive to themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if say, Haku's clan only allowed their members to marry people with powerful wind and water affinities in order to influence and speed up their clan's evolution towards eventually producing Hyouton users.

Edit: Also kekkei genkai clans practicing eugenics would support your idea that advanced element bloodline users can't use elements outside their specialization. If Haku's clan only interbred with people with strong water and wind affinities, they likely wouldn't have acquired many genes for earth, fire and lightning affinity. So they would have very weak affinities for those elements.

 

[Knyght]

The Naruversity

I'd forgotten that the Kirin's technically classified as Lightning. It's mechanics are so much more complex than most jutsu I end up thinking of it as something different entirely.

I can agree with the eugenics but would the gene therapy and genetic engineering be necessary? I could definitely believe they were used in some way to ensure the kekkei genkai was passed down through the clan or even transplant them onto regular clan members. But I don't think they were used to change/improve the kekkei genkai's function and abilities.

Hashirama's kekkei genkai seems to function just like the rest (excluding its chakra-suppressing traits) which would suggest he has the same "instinctive understanding" as any of other kekkei genkai users. So unless we assume his power is the result of artificial tampering, which isn't impossible but seems unlikely, his power works the same as the artificial kekkei genkai despite stemming from a mutation.

 

[Altered Nova]

The Naruversity

I don't believe that gene therapy and genetic engineering would be necessary for developing kekkei genkai, but I do think they are utilized a lot. As you mentioned, it would explain why most kekkei genkai seem to be guaranteed to awaken in those that carry them without the clans needing to resort to inbreeding, if they artificially ensure that their children always inherit the bloodline's genes even if one of their parents was an outsider. Also, I can't imagine how some of the more extreme physical bloodlines like Sakon and Ukon's bloodline or the Kaguya clan's Dead Bone Pulse could have possibly evolved naturally. Those two bloodlines would require many simultaneous and extensive mutations to work without killing their carriers, which is unlikely to happen on accident.

Are we sure that Mokuton users instinctively understand nature transformation? We don't know anything about when Hashirama awakened his bloodline, Yamato was a prodigy that was already a chuunin by the time he was six years old so he might have mastered water and earth nature transformation before Orochimaru even experimented on him, Obito was wrapped inside a Zetsu's body when he first used Mokuton so that Zetsu may have helped him, and Madara was running around in a body heavily modified by Kabuto so his being able to use Mokuton doesn't mean much.

Heck, the only person we even know could use nature transformation instinctively was Haku, that may well have been a trait unique to his clan or even to Haku himself.

On the other hand, it's possible that instinctive mastery of a nature transformation is just a side effect of having an extreme affinity for that element and has nothing to do with being able to use advanced natures. So those with advanced nature kekkei genkai would always be able to use nature transformation instinctively because extreme affinity with their base elements is a prerequisite for developing those kinds of bloodlines, but clans with an extreme affinity for a single element would also have that same advantage. Which would explain why Sasuke was able to master fire nature transformation at such a young age and in such a short period of time, because the Uchiha clan has a very high affinity for fire jutsu.

 

[Knyght]

The Naruversity

Well, the idea of instinctively understanding nature transformation is conjecture anyway, even for Haku since he never demonstrates it in the manga and the scene where he discovers his powers by controlling water was anime-only. Seeing how advanced elements require them to transform their chakra into two elements, there are only two ways for them to go about it.

1) They learn to transform their chakra into the correct elements and then learn to do them together to create the advanced element.
2) They have the instinctive ability to create their advanced element which naturally means that they can instinctively transform their chakra into both elements.

Haku being able to kill his father implies he was able to pull off his ice jutsu from a young age which points to the second option. But you do make a good point that this could be something unique to him or his clan (especially given his potential). For me it just seems to fit better that they are capable of doing this instinctively given the way that kekkei genkai don't seem to be something you learn how to use. You can improve how well you use them but their basic functions are something you just know how to do.

So in that respect, it seems natural to me that advanced element user would be able transform their chakra instinctively, including Hashirama. But with him being the only user and the general lack of info on the subject, I don't think there's definite answer.

Though the idea with Sasuke is interesting. It would explain why the Uchiha were renowned for the Katon jutsu since other than it being their most used type, there's doesn't seem to stand out much. Being able to mastery fire nature transformation so quickly would put them above most other users and it still fits with the kekkei genkai aspect.

I agree with those physical kekkei gekai being artificial in nature though I think of them seperately to the elemental type. Eye-type, Body-type and Chakra-type, basically. It's possible that they were natural but I think they'd be 'easier' to develop than the elemental kind would be.

 

[Knyght]

An edited repost that incorporates the ideas brought up in the recent discussion. I think I got everything covered here.

Elemental Kekkei Genkai v2 (Official Version)

This type of bloodline limit allows the user to generate two different chakra natures simultaneously and release them together to form a combined element. They possess modular chakra circulatory systems which allow different parts of their body to close themselves off from each other and produce different types of chakra simultaneously. So they can combine different chakra elements while a normal person is physiologically limited to producing only one element at a time. Technically, this is a single kekkei genkai but it is classified as several thanks to their being multiple elemental combinations.

These advanced elements possess the properties of the elements that were used to compose it e.g. Ice Release can be a highly offensive style and is greatly compatible with shape manipulation. These advanced elements can produce different substances and effects depending on the ratio of the elemental chakra being used. Whilst numerous clans and individuals have been known to share the same advanced element, their environment, history and individuality mean that they can create different kinds.

The standard method of doing this is to gather the chakra of one element in each hand and then bringing them together to produce the advanced element chakra. This is because the tenketsu in the hands are the easiest to emit chakra from and whilst it's possible to combine them entirely within the body, it's much harder. The nature of their chakra system means that they are capable of performing standard elemental jutsu with one-handed hand-seals.

The clans who possess these elemental bloodlines developed them through long-term specialisation in elemental jutsu. They focused on two nature transformations exclusively and their continued usage of this altered their genes so that their clan members all shared these affinities. They grow stronger over time, aided by selectively breeding with individuals who also possessed the correct affinities to make them far more capable than regular ninja. Eventually they developed a kekkei genkai; they were born with two affinities and were capable of performing both nature transformations simultaneously and combining them. Gene therapy and genetic engineering have been used to ensure their kekkei genkai would awaken in those who carry the genes without needing to resort to inbreed and ensure that their offspring always inherit the bloodline's genes.

However, there have been individuals born with this kekkei genkai without belonging to these clans thanks to possessing the right genetic code. These may be the only generation to possess it or it sometimes results in them starting their own bloodline clans. And then there are some truly special individuals who are capable of using two advanced elements; a result of having parents of each possess different advanced elements. In most cases, the offspring would only inherit one but if the parents share an affinity, the child would be able to use both advanced elements. Terumi Mei is an example of this as she has two kekkei genkai thanks to both advanced elements using fire-natured chakra as a component. Theoretically, it would be possible for someone to possess four advanced elements though it's undocumented and probably couldn't be achieved through natural means.

People who possess this kekkei genkai have the instinctual ability to transform their chakra into both elements thanks to their extreme affinities, allowing them to use their advanced elements without training. To what extent this is true depends on the individual. But this overspecialisation leaves them nearly-incapable of performing nature transformation for any of the other elements, limiting them to their inborn elements unlike regular ninja.

 

[Altered Nova]

The Naruversity

And then there are some truly special individuals who are capable of using two advanced elements; a result of having parents of each possess different advanced elements. In most cases, the offspring would only inherit one but if the parents share an affinity, the child would be able to use both advanced elements. Terumi Mei is an example of this as she has two kekkei genkai thanks to both advanced elements using fire-natured chakra as a component.

You know I think this might explain Dust Release. What if Muu and Oonoki both inherited two bloodlines like Mei Terumi did (let's say Explosion Release and Erosion Release), except their affinities were so incredibly potent that they can go one step further then even Mei can, and they can combine their two advanced elements into a third tier combination element using all three base elements?

Perhaps this is just the natural result of increasing three affinities to the absolute pinnacle through generations of selective breeding, or maybe they needed some genetic engineering to help it along. Either way, it makes we wonder how far someone born with four advanced elements and high enough affinities for them all could push their elemental combinations. Imagine if someone had Lava, Boil, Explosion and Scorch Releases and could combine all of them.

 

[Knyght]

The Naruversity

Personally, I think Onoki and MuÆs abilities are all-or-nothing. Whilst Dust Release works like a combination of Explosion and Erosion Release, rather than being able to combine, IÆd say that they can only use wind, fire and earth separately or use them all simultaneously. Difficult to say if thatÆs true other than neither of them using advanced elements (though it would have made sense for Onoki to use them against the Second Mizukage) and no-one mentioning that their abilities are a result of two bloodlines.

And IÆm thinking that rather than being a result of inherited genetics, it could be a deliberate alteration to their chakra systems. Similar to the various body-altering kinjutsu weÆve seen but called ôbloodline selectionö because itÆs chakra-related and mimics the effects of an elemental bloodline. At least, thatÆs the impression I got when it was said that Onoki learned the secrets of Dust Release from Mu.

 

[Knyght]

The Naruversity

I don't think I paid any attention to it before but someone on Narutopedia also noted the oddity of certain jutsu:

Techniques such as the Toad Oil Bullet and the Poison Mist mention "converting" or "kneading" chakra into materials or substances, but have never been mentioned to use certain chakra natures. Also, they cannot be advanced natures due to the fact that they are ranked, and therefore cannot be kekkei genkai. Certain other techniques involved in manipulating substances are also often confused to be chakra natures, such as silk, bone, and ink. However, these substances cannot be produced from chakra alone, meaning the chakra is not changed in nature, and it is rather used to change already-existing substances.

Maybe the reason they don't appear to be classified as nature transformation is because there's a difference between converting chakra directly into a different substance and changing the nature of the chakra itself to possess different properties.

For example, the Poison Mist combines ninjutsu, chemisty and medical knowledge, using it requires fine chakra control and advanced ability in medical ninjutsu. So Shizune's only capable of converting her chakra into chemical substances because she possesses such an intricate knowledge of it. And Jiraiya, as a toad summoner and sage, could also have a deep knowledge of the toads and the oil they produce. KB creates a human body which presumably includes nerves, bones, muscle and blood; probably only possible because it's recreating the caster's body(though that one might stray into Yin-Yang territory).

So instead of transforming regular chakra into "oil chakra" or "chemical chakra", they're literally creating that substance with their chakra.

 

[Altered Nova]

The Naruversity

Eh, I'm not really sure I like the idea of ninja creating real, permanent matter with their chakra. That's getting into the Sage of Six Path's 'Creation of All Things' territory, and as much as I respect Shizune and Jiraiya I don't think they're capable of using Ying-Yang release to imagine toad oil/poisonous chemicals and then bring those substances into existence.

I prefer the idea that they are nature transforming their chakra into nonstandard proto-elements that mimic those substances.

It's also possible that they're simply summoning those substances from somewhere else as part of the jutsu. Maybe they swallowed storage/summoning scrolls and pull the oil and chemicals from those. And/or perhaps they use their chakra to "grow" a small amount of oil/chemicals they are already carrying into a huge torrent/cloud, similar to how the Akimichi can use their chakra to temporarily grow their bodies to enormous sizes.

 

[Knyght]

The Naruversity

I didn't mean it in the permanent sense. That's why I used KB as an example since it's probably the closest to what I mean, and I'm assuming that doesn't fall under Yin/Yang territory. I was trying to avoid the implication that I was referring to the Sage's ability.

Shadow Clones are composed of chakra but are physically indistinguishable from the user's body, possessing flesh, blood, bones and even the same clothes and tools. Even with the Byakugan, you can't actually see any chakra other than what's in the chakra pathways. Same with the Henge to a lesser extent. They use chakra to create substance but it's still chakra-based.

The same logic with the poison and oil; they function like the real thing but they are impermanent substances created with chakra. Chakra transformed into a physical substance as opposed to chakra transformed into a different type of chakra.

Honestly, it would have made more sense for the jutsu description to have been that they were made by manipulating chemicals/liquids that existed in the body.

 

[Altered Nova]

The Naruversity

I get what you are saying now. Part of what confuses me on this concept is that the difference between "Chakra transformed into a physical substance as opposed to chakra transformed into a different type of chakra" isn't very well explained. Water, Earth and Wind elemental jutsu, as well as many advanced elements like Lava, Wood and Ice, seem to do both at the same time.

That's what I don't get. Fundamentally, what's the difference between using your chakra to create short-lived pseudo-matter poison that's indistinguishable from the real thing, and elementally recomposing your chakra into poison type chakra that merely mimics the properties of real poison?

And if it's possible to create real poison from your chakra without having to elementally transform your chakra into poison chakra, why can't you do the same thing with water/earth/wind/lava/wood/ice/etc?

 

[Shirotsume]

The Naruversity

And then we add in the madness of Mokuton, whose effects are still surrounding Konoha to this day.

 

[Knyght]

The Naruversity

Yeah, I'm struggling with it too tbh. They use different processes but share the very similar results, to the point that you should be capable of doing something like creating water without water chakra. It would be probably be a lot more complex, costly and more limited in what it can do but still theoretically possible. Hell, that probably happens if you're carrying a water canteen when using KB.

Madness.

 

[Shirotsume]

The Naruversity

And now I'm remembering the very first time we saw a suiton jutsu- the water dragon.

Both Kakashi and Zabuza formed it from lake water, not elemental chakra.

 

[Altered Nova]

The Naruversity

Actually I think it is possible to create real water without using water chakra. You just wouldn't be able to manipulate it in any way, because spatially transforming water requires elementally transforming your chakra into water chakra and either creating some pseudo-water with that water chakra or infusing it into some already present real water so you can control it the same way.

So cloning a water canteen or spitting up a few gallons of water is a low-ranked non-elemental jutsu. Easy to do, but useless for fighting. Shaping that water into a blade, drill, shield, dragon or whatever on the other hand, that requires a Water Release elemental jutsu.

By this logic, Jiraiya spitting up toad oil is a non-elemental jutsu because all he's doing is spitting it up. He can't directly harm the opponent with it cause it's just a glob of oil, it's only useful because of it's inherent properties of being really sticky and really flammable. But if he wanted to telekinetically shape and move that oil the same way a water release user can manipulate water, that would require transforming his chakra into Toad Oil element chakra, which might or might not even be possible. This is why Jiraiaya needed Fukasaku to propel the oil with a wind jutsu in their collaboration jutsu, he couldn't use chakra to propel it because it wasn't an elemental jutsu.

Same story with Shizune. All she's doing with that poison is spitting it out and hoping the opponent breathes it in. She can't make it chase them or solidify it into an arm to grab them with or anything crazy like that, because she's not using Poison Release elemental jutsu.

Similar idea with other elements. Anyone could puke up some dirt or mud. That's easy. Forming that mud into a dragon, telekinetically launching a rock at your opponent like a bullet, or making your skin as hard as stone, that requires Earth Release Elemental chakra.

Farting out a cloud of oxygen is easy. Burping up wind blades and vacuum bullets requires Wind Release elemental jutsu.

Edit: The only thing I'm not certain about is the energy type elements and advanced elements. Could someone create fire or lightning without using elemental chakra? Could you theoretically create a tree without possessing Mokuton, you just couldn't manipulate that tree or summon a wood dragon or crush your opponent under an avalanche of foliage?

 

[Shirotsume]

The Naruversity

That's what I was thinking, but then I remember the water dragon out of lake water. And how the fuck does that work.

 

[Altered Nova]

The Naruversity

I assume you infuse the lake water with your water chakra, then you can control it the same as elemental chakra water. That's how Gaara controls his sand anyway, so I figure it's the same principle for water or earth or wind. It's even advantageous to do it that way because you don't have to use as much chakra if you use pre-existing water and people with chakra absorbing powers can't absorb the real water.

 

[Knyght]

The Naruversity

Would that mean that Gaara automatically uses earth chakra then? Otherwise he's using chakra to control an earthen material, assuming sand can be even used with Earth Release. Unless you run with the Magnet Release theory in which case Gaara (and possibly Shukaku himself) is using magnetic chakra the entire time.

 

[Altered Nova]

The Naruversity

I'm starting to rethink my theory that Gaara is using Magnet Release to control his sand. If Magnet Release can control non-metal substances, then it can basically control any substance can't it? It would be the cheat element. Yeah, I'm gonna assume from now on that Magnet Release can only be used with metal (I would say magnetic metals, but gold isn't magnetic. And there was that one zombie who could magnetize people. Magnet Release is weird.)

Now I think Gaara is using Earth Release to control the sand. I don't see any fundamental reason why Earth chakra couldn't control sand, as sand is just finely divided rock and mineral (mostly quartz). If Earth Release can control mud, than it should be able to control sand. Really the only problem with this theory is that none of his jutsu are classified as Earth Release for some reason.

 

[Knyght]

The Naruversity

There's always the old "Wind+Earth=Sand" theory which I don't think has been invalidated yet. It wouldn't be the first Release type to be named long after its debut (even if this one would be a record breaker). Sadly, it'd debunk my Erosion Release idea and doesn't fit as well into Dust Release. It wouldn't be first a jutsu type could easily fit into one of the main five but gets made into an advanced element e.g. Ice Release. Though there's a greater difference between that and this, I'd say.

 

[Altered Nova]

The Naruversity

There's no reason that Erosion and Sand can't both be Earth+Wind. There are three drastically different forms of Lava Release after all.

And Earth+Wind=Sand would fit well for Shukaku, we know that can use Wind Release. He wouldn't even be the only bijuu to grant his jinchuuriki usage of an advanced element, Son Goku and Roshi have Lava Release.

Actually I'm really liking that idea now, that Gaara's Sand is an advanced element comprised of Earth and Wind.

 

[Shirotsume]

The Naruversity

Earth+Wind makes them most sense, because flying sand platforms.