The Wheel Of Time
- Thread starter Ashaman
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Arrive in a town full of starving people; tell Thom you won't help anyone unless they can pay. Spend day being a hero. Good old Mat.
Is Faile a tsundere? I didn't know that word at the time, but with the way she glowers and grimaces and like to prod Perrin, I get the feeling she's exactly that.
Perrin is attacked by Gray Men - 6 of them, all at once, and Moraine finally seems to truly comprehend that the Shadow want Perrin dead, and therefore he must be important somehow.
I've decided. This book has one long, drawn out message to us and perhaps to the characters; Perrin and Mat are actually really important in the war against the Shadow.
Is Faile a tsundere? I didn't know that word at the time, but with the way she glowers and grimaces and like to prod Perrin, I get the feeling she's exactly that.
Perrin is attacked by Gray Men - 6 of them, all at once, and Moraine finally seems to truly comprehend that the Shadow want Perrin dead, and therefore he must be important somehow.
I've decided. This book has one long, drawn out message to us and perhaps to the characters; Perrin and Mat are actually really important in the war against the Shadow.
And to finish for the night - Perrin goes wolf dreaming and gets told to flee; Darkhounds are after them.
Luckily, the chase is short, and Moraine uses balefire to kill them, and hopes to god Sammel doesn't notice her.
Faile is now bound to them, because Perrin blabed about Rand being the DR; I'm a little disappointed that the reveal to her that someone has found and blown the horn already was mostly ignored.
And then we skkip to Mat, who now has fireworks and is like, "I don't give a fuck, I want to know how this shit works."
Then more assissins, which he attributes to Elayne's letter; pretty sure they're just normal assassins, not gray men.
Oh, and a woman, who he feels didn't deserve to die, while the rest of them did, cause they were guys.
:unsure: The Two Rivers has sexism that runs deep, both ways.
Luckily, the chase is short, and Moraine uses balefire to kill them, and hopes to god Sammel doesn't notice her.
Faile is now bound to them, because Perrin blabed about Rand being the DR; I'm a little disappointed that the reveal to her that someone has found and blown the horn already was mostly ignored.
And then we skkip to Mat, who now has fireworks and is like, "I don't give a fuck, I want to know how this shit works."
Then more assissins, which he attributes to Elayne's letter; pretty sure they're just normal assassins, not gray men.
Oh, and a woman, who he feels didn't deserve to die, while the rest of them did, cause they were guys.
:unsure: The Two Rivers has sexism that runs deep, both ways.
As someone else will point out much later, the only possible way for the Black Ajah to exist would be the ability to lie. Simple misdirection isn't going to be enough, if this society is going to keep itself so secret that 99% of the Tower doesn't believe it exists then it needs to be able to simply do the one thing no Aes Sedai can do, outright lie. Murder helps too.
Considering that a prequel novel makes it very clear that both Moraine and Siuan know that the Black Ajah exists (and by the time of The Dragon Reborn have known for decades) it's a massive decrease in intelligence for them to not have realized that simple fact*.
As for Lanfear, later books will make it clear that while she likes to bluff and bluster she actually considers other women to be a serious threat. Like everything else about her (except for her beauty) she keeps an image of perfection about this while inwardly knowing the truth doesn't match up.
And yeah, The Dragon Reborn made it fairly clear 'these two are important characters'. Now if Mat would just realize that instead of constantly complaining about the people trying to kill him...
*Then again my opinion of the intelligence of every authority figure in Randland is the same as my opinion of the intelligence of every authority figure in Mass Effect. They're so stupid the aliens from Signs could probably beat them.
Considering that a prequel novel makes it very clear that both Moraine and Siuan know that the Black Ajah exists (and by the time of The Dragon Reborn have known for decades) it's a massive decrease in intelligence for them to not have realized that simple fact*.
As for Lanfear, later books will make it clear that while she likes to bluff and bluster she actually considers other women to be a serious threat. Like everything else about her (except for her beauty) she keeps an image of perfection about this while inwardly knowing the truth doesn't match up.
And yeah, The Dragon Reborn made it fairly clear 'these two are important characters'. Now if Mat would just realize that instead of constantly complaining about the people trying to kill him...
*Then again my opinion of the intelligence of every authority figure in Randland is the same as my opinion of the intelligence of every authority figure in Mass Effect. They're so stupid the aliens from Signs could probably beat them.
That's really, really bad. They've known for 2 decades, and have yet to do anything about it? Shit man, their idiocy exceeds my expectations.
Mostly their stupidity comes from trying to play against each other to come out on top. I can't remember most other nations idiocy, but the Aes Sedai want to control the situation because they think they need to in order to win. Its almost the exact opposite. They need to let RPM do their thing, and assist them doing it.
Well, there are exceptions to this, of course.
Mostly their stupidity comes from trying to play against each other to come out on top. I can't remember most other nations idiocy, but the Aes Sedai want to control the situation because they think they need to in order to win. Its almost the exact opposite. They need to let RPM do their thing, and assist them doing it.
Well, there are exceptions to this, of course.
Mat's experience in Caemlyn is short but sweet as he sneaks into the palace, over hears a plot to kill Elayne and co.
Par for the course with Mat.
Honestly, I'm still debating if Gaebril (who IIRC is Rahvin) knew who the hell Mat was, or if the horny bastard missed it.
I think the latter, but he'll be kicking himself if he ever finds out that one of the 3 most important people in the fight against the shadow was right under his nose.
Mat arrives in Tear and plays some more dice; and wins with 5 crowns. Did I mention that the dice were wieghted to show 3 crowns and 2 roses?
Nyneave and co also arrive in Tear, where Nyneave continues to earn my respect; stay at the local Wisdoms place cause they'll be looking for us in inns.
Egwene is still angry at Nyneave, apparently because she has taken charge and is looking down on her. My sympathy level is still 0.0%, mainly cause Nyneave is older, wiser, smarter and is generally making good decisions. But I think I said that before.
Perrin's moment at a blacksmith was nice; I didn't realize he got the hammer so soon.
Par for the course with Mat.
Honestly, I'm still debating if Gaebril (who IIRC is Rahvin) knew who the hell Mat was, or if the horny bastard missed it.
I think the latter, but he'll be kicking himself if he ever finds out that one of the 3 most important people in the fight against the shadow was right under his nose.
Mat arrives in Tear and plays some more dice; and wins with 5 crowns. Did I mention that the dice were wieghted to show 3 crowns and 2 roses?
Nyneave and co also arrive in Tear, where Nyneave continues to earn my respect; stay at the local Wisdoms place cause they'll be looking for us in inns.
Egwene is still angry at Nyneave, apparently because she has taken charge and is looking down on her. My sympathy level is still 0.0%, mainly cause Nyneave is older, wiser, smarter and is generally making good decisions. But I think I said that before.
Perrin's moment at a blacksmith was nice; I didn't realize he got the hammer so soon.
Oh god, your mention of Egwene in the last post.
Like, I realise you don't want spoilers of Towers of Midnight and The Gathering Storms. I'm not going to spoil specific stuff, but I will say that while Egwene builds up some mad respect from the reader over the course of several books from Lord of Chaos onwards, she absolutely shat it all away in ToM.
Like, I realise you don't want spoilers of Towers of Midnight and The Gathering Storms. I'm not going to spoil specific stuff, but I will say that while Egwene builds up some mad respect from the reader over the course of several books from Lord of Chaos onwards, she absolutely shat it all away in ToM.
Dangerously close to spoiler material there, but I'll indulge you. Just don't make a habit of it.
ToM refers to Towers of Midnight, which seems to be a Seanchen thing. Exactly what it is I don't know, though I suspect its the royal palace or something similar.
In whatever case, its connected to the Seanchen in some way.
Egwene hates the Seanchen. Hates them. I don't even have words for how much she hates and fears them.
She has spent pretty much all of DR suppressing the things they made her do; every time they're mentioned in the Egwene's narrative, its usually followed by the equivlient of "But I don't want to think about that."
From what little you've told me, Egwene spends book 6-12 grinding respect points (as A-Seat I'm guessing), but then the Seanchen come up in some way and she makes a total tit of herself cause she lets her emotions get the better of her.
But it can't be that simple; one instance is not enough to shit away too much recpect. Most likely she has to deal with the Seanchen in some way and spends much of the time an incoherent ball of rage.
If I've missed the mark there, I can only guess that its because I've accidently hit the mark in my previous post; Egwene pisses away her respect because she finds herself back under someone elses thumb, someone who is making intelligent choices and is over all a good leader, and Egwene is chafing or rebelling because she isn't in charge.
Like I said earlier, I don't want to know if I'm wrong or right about these things.
ToM refers to Towers of Midnight, which seems to be a Seanchen thing. Exactly what it is I don't know, though I suspect its the royal palace or something similar.
In whatever case, its connected to the Seanchen in some way.
Egwene hates the Seanchen. Hates them. I don't even have words for how much she hates and fears them.
She has spent pretty much all of DR suppressing the things they made her do; every time they're mentioned in the Egwene's narrative, its usually followed by the equivlient of "But I don't want to think about that."
From what little you've told me, Egwene spends book 6-12 grinding respect points (as A-Seat I'm guessing), but then the Seanchen come up in some way and she makes a total tit of herself cause she lets her emotions get the better of her.
But it can't be that simple; one instance is not enough to shit away too much recpect. Most likely she has to deal with the Seanchen in some way and spends much of the time an incoherent ball of rage.
If I've missed the mark there, I can only guess that its because I've accidently hit the mark in my previous post; Egwene pisses away her respect because she finds herself back under someone elses thumb, someone who is making intelligent choices and is over all a good leader, and Egwene is chafing or rebelling because she isn't in charge.
Like I said earlier, I don't want to know if I'm wrong or right about these things.
To be honest, what you're referring to I always consider Sue-ish traits put on her. The moment the entire thing started I simply was not able to credit it and every chapter with her as a POV character became the ones I hated the most.
The Forsaken frankly don't seem to be that bright. I have always believed that Jordan added in a rather dubious order for them simply to explain why they weren't doing better.
The Forsaken frankly don't seem to be that bright. I have always believed that Jordan added in a rather dubious order for them simply to explain why they weren't doing better.
Probably to do with the peculiarities of linking. A man cannot initiate a Link but IIRC if he is linked he has a superior position in it. More to the point a man is often, ability to ability, noticeably stronger than a woman on average in the one power.
Those two points probably play a large role, as suddenly one on one, if it works at ALL (and remember the a'dam are ter'angreal, they might be made to only work on woman and to kill men because nobody likes men who can channel) the man might end up in control, both due to superior power, and the fact that the way the link is initiated between mean women and men requires it iirc.
There is of course the three women rule, and this is my personal belief and has nothing to do with the stories, in a manner similar to the use of Callendor. A 'Buffer'.
Those two points probably play a large role, as suddenly one on one, if it works at ALL (and remember the a'dam are ter'angreal, they might be made to only work on woman and to kill men because nobody likes men who can channel) the man might end up in control, both due to superior power, and the fact that the way the link is initiated between mean women and men requires it iirc.
There is of course the three women rule, and this is my personal belief and has nothing to do with the stories, in a manner similar to the use of Callendor. A 'Buffer'.
I'm not sure about the whole superior position thing. I remember Rand practically ripped control from Nyneave when they were bonded, but I thought that was mostly Rand wanting control rather than men naturally being the controller.
And Buffer? Faint memories; Callandor lacks the safety measure that angreal or sa'angreal usually have, right?
I very vaguely remember that a woman can act as a Buffer during a Link to make up for that lack of safety measure. That right?
I hadn't remembered that at all until now.
Alright; now to finish DR. I'm like, 70 page from the end.
And Buffer? Faint memories; Callandor lacks the safety measure that angreal or sa'angreal usually have, right?
I very vaguely remember that a woman can act as a Buffer during a Link to make up for that lack of safety measure. That right?
I hadn't remembered that at all until now.
Alright; now to finish DR. I'm like, 70 page from the end.
For once we see Nyneave's side of her and Egwene's arguments; she kinda sorta half admits she might be treating Egwene as a child, but so far all her choices have been good ones, so still 0 sympathy for Egwene.
Then Julin betrays them and the Blacks take them captive, seemingly one by one; at the least Nyneave was taken separately. She tried to put up a fight, but they are fully trained Sisters, and they had the element of surprise.
Don't be too hard on Julin though; he was under Liandrin's bastardized version of compulsion.
Not long after, Mat arrives at the Wise Womn's house to help Thom's cough, only to convince the woman to fill him in, and then start charming her. He leaves the house laughing with dice spinning in his head, and planning how he's going to break into the Stone of Tear.
Ta'veren man. If there is one plot device that RJ was a genius for coming up with, it was this. Coincidence on coincidence piles up until its almost unbelievable - Ta'veren.
Then we're back to Perrin; seriously, who is annoyed that he's being told to run when he'd rather fight, showing just how much he's changed. And he's warming up to Faile now, just in time for her to to fall into a Dream trap that only he can save her from.
And Loial earns my respect abit, turning from big and bookwormy to None shall Pass in two lines.
Mat breeches the Stone of Tear; he is by no means the first (that honor goes to Rand) but his is certainly the most impressive. The man uses a self styled bomb made from Fireworks.
Back to Egwene, and she impresses me with her plan to use Dreaming, then manages to beat a Black in the dream World. Still not sure how that's going to happen, but better than doing nothing.
And it appearntly only takes 1 Black to maintain the block on NEE's channelling. I seem to remember it taking 6 to block Rand, but to be fair, Rand was both better trained and much further along in One Power maturity than they are now.
We're then briefly back to Perrin, who has a nice moment with Faile - who fades away shortly after. Not as rescued as Perrin had hoped.
Then the Chapter ends with Mat, being awesome beating a High Lord 1-on-1 (his third, if the narrative is correct) and the getting super lucky with the 4th, who snuck up behind them and got hit on the head when Mat was putting his staff over his shoulder.
The chapter begins with Rand, and for the first time (I think) we have the symbol of the Dragon as the chapter's title picture. The fight with Be'lel was anti-climatic in a way, but it was pretty amazing how Moraine just strode straight up and balefired him by surprise.
Egwene does some good work, but not quite good enough; what it did do was let Mat free them himself, unmolested by the Aes Sedai guard.
And then they glare at him for swearing, and then use the One Power on him when he asks why they felt the need to punch out a woman who couldn't even move. When he calls them on it, they let him down. They then walk out to go and take on the Blacks, and Mat is left WTFing cause in his opinion they should be GTFO of there.
Perrin has a great moment, risking his life to save Faile.
Then Rand basically has a running batle with Ba'alzamon, where he pretty much lives purely via instinct. I'd call bullshit, but he's both in the World of Dreams and a confirmed reincarnation. It makes me hesitent to say its unbelieveable.
The final chapter is Mat's POV, and he serves as our questioner on what is going on. We find out from a convenient Aiel in the room that they are The People Of The Dragon; we also find another of the Dark One's seals, and finish up with Mat being reminded he's important, all while he's planning his getaway.
And finished.
Like I've already said, one of the major messages of the book is that Perrin and Mat are more important than first thought.
As a side note, the first book's main theme is probably escape/fear, while the second is Rand's acceptance/denial of who he is.
That said, they still didn't seem to do much, or what they did do was seemingly small.
Although the plot revolved around Rand and the Stone, much of the focus was on NEE's search and hunt, all of which intertwined in the Rand plot. Perrin's plot was both his own and Rand's, while finally Mat's was mostly a peripheral of NEE.
It was an interesting book which allowed us to see a variety of view points, what with the lack of Rand.
Rand, Perrin, Mat, Egwene, Nyneave all had POV chapter; Mat's is the only new one, in favour of Moraine who didn't have any. Its interesting to have him, seeing as we've only had hints on it before.
He clearly wants nothing to do with this shit, and wants to get out as quick as he can, but even so his own better nature keeps dragging him back.
He's also a gambler and ladies man, the former of which was only referenced in GH, and the latter only really became prominant now. Its nice to have a flirt, while of his two equals, are innocent to women completely.
Perrin is getting closer to accepting his Wolf half, though that is more out of neccessity than anything, and his romance with Faile is not terribly done.
When seen with th thought that Faile is kinda like a tsundere, and likes someone with a bite to him, her attraction to Perrin is quite clear. Perrin's attraction to her is also there, but its more in how his attitude shifts; at first he couldn't stand her, but then later he's very conscious of her in an almost possitive way.
Of NEE, Nyneave continues to be my favourite, being sound in the head and mostly sensible. Elayne's done little, while Egwene has up swings and low swings. Sometimes she's great, but just as often she's annoying and petty.
Moraine is sort of interesting as well, but with her its more because she's very obviously losing control of the situtaion.
Rand argues with her. Perrin argues with her. Lan argues with her. Mat lies to her face even as he plans his escape route. Events are happening nothing like she planned for.
Then Julin betrays them and the Blacks take them captive, seemingly one by one; at the least Nyneave was taken separately. She tried to put up a fight, but they are fully trained Sisters, and they had the element of surprise.
Don't be too hard on Julin though; he was under Liandrin's bastardized version of compulsion.
Not long after, Mat arrives at the Wise Womn's house to help Thom's cough, only to convince the woman to fill him in, and then start charming her. He leaves the house laughing with dice spinning in his head, and planning how he's going to break into the Stone of Tear.
Ta'veren man. If there is one plot device that RJ was a genius for coming up with, it was this. Coincidence on coincidence piles up until its almost unbelievable - Ta'veren.
Then we're back to Perrin; seriously, who is annoyed that he's being told to run when he'd rather fight, showing just how much he's changed. And he's warming up to Faile now, just in time for her to to fall into a Dream trap that only he can save her from.
And Loial earns my respect abit, turning from big and bookwormy to None shall Pass in two lines.
Mat breeches the Stone of Tear; he is by no means the first (that honor goes to Rand) but his is certainly the most impressive. The man uses a self styled bomb made from Fireworks.
Back to Egwene, and she impresses me with her plan to use Dreaming, then manages to beat a Black in the dream World. Still not sure how that's going to happen, but better than doing nothing.
And it appearntly only takes 1 Black to maintain the block on NEE's channelling. I seem to remember it taking 6 to block Rand, but to be fair, Rand was both better trained and much further along in One Power maturity than they are now.
We're then briefly back to Perrin, who has a nice moment with Faile - who fades away shortly after. Not as rescued as Perrin had hoped.
Then the Chapter ends with Mat, being awesome beating a High Lord 1-on-1 (his third, if the narrative is correct) and the getting super lucky with the 4th, who snuck up behind them and got hit on the head when Mat was putting his staff over his shoulder.
The chapter begins with Rand, and for the first time (I think) we have the symbol of the Dragon as the chapter's title picture. The fight with Be'lel was anti-climatic in a way, but it was pretty amazing how Moraine just strode straight up and balefired him by surprise.
Egwene does some good work, but not quite good enough; what it did do was let Mat free them himself, unmolested by the Aes Sedai guard.
And then they glare at him for swearing, and then use the One Power on him when he asks why they felt the need to punch out a woman who couldn't even move. When he calls them on it, they let him down. They then walk out to go and take on the Blacks, and Mat is left WTFing cause in his opinion they should be GTFO of there.
Perrin has a great moment, risking his life to save Faile.
Then Rand basically has a running batle with Ba'alzamon, where he pretty much lives purely via instinct. I'd call bullshit, but he's both in the World of Dreams and a confirmed reincarnation. It makes me hesitent to say its unbelieveable.
The final chapter is Mat's POV, and he serves as our questioner on what is going on. We find out from a convenient Aiel in the room that they are The People Of The Dragon; we also find another of the Dark One's seals, and finish up with Mat being reminded he's important, all while he's planning his getaway.
And finished.
Like I've already said, one of the major messages of the book is that Perrin and Mat are more important than first thought.
As a side note, the first book's main theme is probably escape/fear, while the second is Rand's acceptance/denial of who he is.
That said, they still didn't seem to do much, or what they did do was seemingly small.
Although the plot revolved around Rand and the Stone, much of the focus was on NEE's search and hunt, all of which intertwined in the Rand plot. Perrin's plot was both his own and Rand's, while finally Mat's was mostly a peripheral of NEE.
It was an interesting book which allowed us to see a variety of view points, what with the lack of Rand.
Rand, Perrin, Mat, Egwene, Nyneave all had POV chapter; Mat's is the only new one, in favour of Moraine who didn't have any. Its interesting to have him, seeing as we've only had hints on it before.
He clearly wants nothing to do with this shit, and wants to get out as quick as he can, but even so his own better nature keeps dragging him back.
He's also a gambler and ladies man, the former of which was only referenced in GH, and the latter only really became prominant now. Its nice to have a flirt, while of his two equals, are innocent to women completely.
Perrin is getting closer to accepting his Wolf half, though that is more out of neccessity than anything, and his romance with Faile is not terribly done.
When seen with th thought that Faile is kinda like a tsundere, and likes someone with a bite to him, her attraction to Perrin is quite clear. Perrin's attraction to her is also there, but its more in how his attitude shifts; at first he couldn't stand her, but then later he's very conscious of her in an almost possitive way.
Of NEE, Nyneave continues to be my favourite, being sound in the head and mostly sensible. Elayne's done little, while Egwene has up swings and low swings. Sometimes she's great, but just as often she's annoying and petty.
Moraine is sort of interesting as well, but with her its more because she's very obviously losing control of the situtaion.
Rand argues with her. Perrin argues with her. Lan argues with her. Mat lies to her face even as he plans his escape route. Events are happening nothing like she planned for.
We start Shadow Rising with Min, who sees signs of violence and death everywhere in the Tower; but since I already know what that is talking about (more or less) I'll jump straight into Min's meeting with Siuan, and my comments on one part in particular.
The Amyrlin Seat freely admits she wants to control Rand, and Min immediately calls her on it.
What follows is actually a fairly weak reasoning that pretty much confirms what I said before:
Suian makes a big speech about how they need to guide and control Rand in order to keep him safe to fight in the Last Battle. Its no use if gets himself killed after all.
But I'm like; you don't even know what half the prophacies mean, and you expect to guide him to their fulfillment? Or do you just plan to ignore them? No, what you really should be doing is letting him do his thing and protect him while he does it, because really, you have no fucking clue what needs to be done either, you arrogant cow.
Word for word she says "she will guide him to the prophecies we can be sure of - when he is ready to face them! - and for the rest, we trust that he has done enough. We hope"
What's worse it that they've made a big thing in past books, explaining that nobody is quite sure what most of the prophecies mean, and even those that sound literal may be anything but.
So all in all, Siuan is basically saying they want to control him to protect him, and lead him to his destiny, even though they know barely any of the steps he needs to take on the way.
Yeah, I'm sure you'll go far with that plan <_<
Does anyone disagree with me on this? Her speech is on page 21 if anyone wants to look at it themselves.
The Amyrlin Seat freely admits she wants to control Rand, and Min immediately calls her on it.
What follows is actually a fairly weak reasoning that pretty much confirms what I said before:
Suian makes a big speech about how they need to guide and control Rand in order to keep him safe to fight in the Last Battle. Its no use if gets himself killed after all.
But I'm like; you don't even know what half the prophacies mean, and you expect to guide him to their fulfillment? Or do you just plan to ignore them? No, what you really should be doing is letting him do his thing and protect him while he does it, because really, you have no fucking clue what needs to be done either, you arrogant cow.
Word for word she says "she will guide him to the prophecies we can be sure of - when he is ready to face them! - and for the rest, we trust that he has done enough. We hope"
What's worse it that they've made a big thing in past books, explaining that nobody is quite sure what most of the prophecies mean, and even those that sound literal may be anything but.
So all in all, Siuan is basically saying they want to control him to protect him, and lead him to his destiny, even though they know barely any of the steps he needs to take on the way.
Yeah, I'm sure you'll go far with that plan <_<
Does anyone disagree with me on this? Her speech is on page 21 if anyone wants to look at it themselves.
It is bullshit, and yes its completely backwards of what they SHOULD be doing. I will however give SOME benefit of the doubt to Siune, not much but some. Three Ta'varen running around is going to throw things into a loop and NOBODY has been as Ta'Varen as Rand is with the possible exception of Lews Therin. If it wasn't for him, Mat would have been right up there as the most Ta'varen individual of the age (I think that's mentioned somewhere). The previous Amrylin, Keeper, Siune and Moraine when they made their plan, and remember this was twenty years ago when Rand was born, simply had no idea how powerful the twists in the Pattern were.
It's obvious that Siune and Moraine are losing control. Personally my sympathy is for Moiraine more than Siune (well up to you know when).
It's obvious that Siune and Moraine are losing control. Personally my sympathy is for Moiraine more than Siune (well up to you know when).
You know I take back what I said before.
They haven't lost control of the situation. They never had it to begin with.
They had the illusion of control, but ever since Winternight those two have been on the back foot.
Being chased by shadowspawn the length of Andor was not on the cards. Going to the Eye was neccessity, not choice.
They almost got control back at Fal Dara, but as I pointed out, they had to discard the plan they came up with before that night was done, and were forced to come up with a new one on the fly.
The only thing they got out of that plan was Rand proclaiming himself, and even then the wrong man blew the Horn and nothing else went quite according to plan.
DR was basically Rand going Fuck You to their plans and doing his own shit; then Perrin spent much of the time rebelling against her control and Mat is doing his own thing too.
Moraine and Suian; they never had control, not really. Moraine had some measure of influence, but control? No, not really.
Not really much to say on the rest of chapter 1 and all of 2. Its a bit of a shame that Perrin and Mat blame Rand for their almost dying, and both privately wondering if they are still friends with Rand, though Mat is mostly wondering if he really wants to still be friends with him.
They haven't lost control of the situation. They never had it to begin with.
They had the illusion of control, but ever since Winternight those two have been on the back foot.
Being chased by shadowspawn the length of Andor was not on the cards. Going to the Eye was neccessity, not choice.
They almost got control back at Fal Dara, but as I pointed out, they had to discard the plan they came up with before that night was done, and were forced to come up with a new one on the fly.
The only thing they got out of that plan was Rand proclaiming himself, and even then the wrong man blew the Horn and nothing else went quite according to plan.
DR was basically Rand going Fuck You to their plans and doing his own shit; then Perrin spent much of the time rebelling against her control and Mat is doing his own thing too.
Moraine and Suian; they never had control, not really. Moraine had some measure of influence, but control? No, not really.
Not really much to say on the rest of chapter 1 and all of 2. Its a bit of a shame that Perrin and Mat blame Rand for their almost dying, and both privately wondering if they are still friends with Rand, though Mat is mostly wondering if he really wants to still be friends with him.
Without getting into TGS and ToM spoilers, I really want to figure out who the best long-term planner was who managed to account for Wheel shenanigans and ta'veren h4x.
I'm having a really difficult time coming up with anybody who doesn't have at least some of their plans fall apart painfully. Elaida kidnaps Rand, only for him to capture dozens of sisters and get PO'ed at them. Resurrected Aginor tries to go rogue with some Black Tower Ashaman and ends up getting balefired. The Seanchan invade Randland, only to get swatted away at the end of The Great Horn, and it takes a lot of persistance and firepower to slowly move back onto the mainland, and they get pushed back again in The Path of Daggers.
Honestly, I think only Graendal has really done well. She managed to get Sammael offed, and strengthened the Shaido Aiel clan (she and Sammy gave the Wise Ones those ter'angreal movement boxes or something), forcing that arc to drag out for soooo many books.
I'm having a really difficult time coming up with anybody who doesn't have at least some of their plans fall apart painfully. Elaida kidnaps Rand, only for him to capture dozens of sisters and get PO'ed at them. Resurrected Aginor tries to go rogue with some Black Tower Ashaman and ends up getting balefired. The Seanchan invade Randland, only to get swatted away at the end of The Great Horn, and it takes a lot of persistance and firepower to slowly move back onto the mainland, and they get pushed back again in The Path of Daggers.
Honestly, I think only Graendal has really done well. She managed to get Sammael offed, and strengthened the Shaido Aiel clan (she and Sammy gave the Wise Ones those ter'angreal movement boxes or something), forcing that arc to drag out for soooo many books.
Best Longterm planner? Ishmael/Morridan. Sure he had things blow up but he did destroy the convent of 10 nations, turned Hawkwing against the White Tower and shattered his empire, lay the groundwork for the Sean'chan.
Sure he didn't do to well in the early books but once he was mildly sane again, he was doing much better.
An alternative would be the Dark One Himself, who it seems IIRC engineered all of the events in Lord of Chaos, and almost pulled of his big 'fuck you' at the end of The Gathering Storm (not going to comment on it, spoilers).
Sure he didn't do to well in the early books but once he was mildly sane again, he was doing much better.
An alternative would be the Dark One Himself, who it seems IIRC engineered all of the events in Lord of Chaos, and almost pulled of his big 'fuck you' at the end of The Gathering Storm (not going to comment on it, spoilers).
Siuan and Moraine are correct in that Rand is an untrained twenty-something who has the fate of the planet resting on him, barely any experience with his powers and the constant threat of insanity. The problem is that A. they aren't good at guiding him and B. any time when it looks like they might have a bit of breathing space to get stuff together it gets worse.
Of course Moraine also had a plan that while technically alright, would have had Rand attacking one of the strongest and most militant Forsaken and for at least part of it assumed a great deal about Forsaken psychology when she should realize that they have many more tactical options than Rand does.
Of course Moraine also had a plan that while technically alright, would have had Rand attacking one of the strongest and most militant Forsaken and for at least part of it assumed a great deal about Forsaken psychology when she should realize that they have many more tactical options than Rand does.