The Wheel Of Time

[Watashiwa]

There was one worrying scene with Rand, where he killed 10 men, and I'm like, are you sure they were DF's?? There was no indication I saw that they were, but maybe I missed something?

Rand originally counted nine. Say hello to the Grey Men.

Re: The Fisher King, from some posts above that. The Fisher King is from the Grail Legend. Not the bullshit fake one starring his Gary Stu-ness Sir Galahad (written by clever monks who realized that they couldn't suppress the Arthur stories so it was better to write their own) but the originals, of Sir Percival, or Parzifal, or Peredur, who went into the Wasteland to search out adventure. He met a man in a boat, who he later found out was a king, who had taken from a lance such an injury to the thigh (actually the groin in the uncensored stories) that he could neither sit nor stand nor lie down without feeling the pain of it. The king's injury affected more than just him; the Waste Land was so because the king and the land were one; and also because fertility=fertility.

While staying in the castle the Grail Knight saw something wondrous: a woman bearing a Grail (though whether that was a cup, a bowl, a vessel or a stone is unknown due to translation convention and Indiana Jones mucking up the pop culture) proceeded into the dinner and performed a curious ceremony and then left without a word. Though it was obvious that everyone could see the spectacle, Peredur said nothing, thinking back on how his mother had chastened him for his curiosity and question-asking before he left. Since no one else in the chamber made comment on the sight Peredur followed suit. As he was escorted out of the castle the next morning he was chastened for his reticence, for had he asked about the miracle the king's wound would have been cured and the curse on the Waste Land ended. Then the castle disappeared, and Peredur spent years seeking it out again, perhaps in vain.

/English lit major. Questions?


Also, best long term planner in the series? People, it's the Creator. Or maybe Brandon Sanderson, who got to finish his favorite fantasy series of all time.

 

[Belgarion213]

Creator? He doesn't do shit. He sets things in motion and then is totally hands of. The most that can be said is he tells Rand that he can do something at the end of Eye of the World and that's probably cannon dissonance. Morridan and Rand theorized that he was to a world as a farmer is to a field. The most he did was trap the Dark One in his seal, everything else is the Wheel.

 

[grant]

Always found it hard to credit that besides the Whitecloaks there doesn't seem to be anything resembling a mainstream religion in Randland. Even weirder since as far as I can tell Jordan wasn't one of those angry zealot atheists that give the rest of us a bad name.

/English lit major. Questions?

Any favored books on old myths and legends (except for Greco-Roman)? Not just what's now the U.K. but also continental Europe?

 

[Belgarion213]

Find what hard to credit? That the Creator doesn't do shit? You don't believe he's some kind of great planner? That the wheel weaves as the wheel wills?

The closest to a mainstream religion is 'the light'. People acknowledge the creator but they don't seem to worship him. The light itself seems to be the main religion, and its not a very organized one. The white cloaks are fanatics but nobody else seems to be that bad, well unless they find Dark Friends.

Actually...the closest to a organized Religion IS the Dark friends and their worship of the Dark One. They apparently have secret meetings and signs to recognize each other.

 

[Watashiwa]

/English lit major. Questions?

Any favored books on old myths and legends (except for Greco-Roman)? Not just what's now the U.K. but also continental Europe?

I have a stack of old fairytale hardbacks; great collections, but you'll never be able to find them. I'm afraid I'm much more familiar with individual fairytales than collections, but the [COLOR] Fairy Books are a good start. They're old, and there are some repeats, but they're comprehensive and well written, even lyrical at times.

General mythology is a bit harder. If you want analysis there's Joseph Cambell and The Masks of God or The Hero of A Thousand Faces. The ultimate grandaddy of it all is probably The Golden Bough. It's an amazing work, and strings together myths from all over the world to show how certain motifs and concepts repeat in all cultures over and over, even if those cultures have nothing in common.

For individual myths... Journey to the West has been translated and retranslated and I still think Arthur Waley has a good translation. It's very much abridged, but if you want a taste of the story that's where you go. Also the Popol Vuh is sitting on my bookshelf from where I'm writing this, it's a collection of Mayan (or rather, Mesoamerican) stories. Bit harder to get into, but quite different.

 

[Ashaman]

Rather than a religion, the Creator and Light is more of a belief system.

Everyone believes in it, but no one feels the need to explicitly worship it.

Saying that, there are prayers "Let the hand of the Creator shelter you..." and curses "The Light Burn you..."

The Children of the Light is less like a religious organisation and more like the fanatics of a wide spread religious organisation, except instead of just being fanatic they are also currupt.

Darkfriends aren't really an organised religion either; they don't worship the Dark One, not really. It is a hell of a lot closer to organised religion than those in the Light.

 

[grant]

And that's what I find hard to believe. That there is no organized system of worship. Humans do not generally behave that way. They keep babbling on about how you should walk in the Light and have hope of rebirth but they never actually seem to give any hints about what's moral (besides the typical fantasy mix of 20th/21st century Western morality mixed with some small pre-current era trappings). Isn't anyone worried that great-grandfather Thom, who lived in a time when it was acceptable for men to beat their wives, won't have that rebirth?

 

[Ashaman]

Continuing on, Perrin goes to confront Rand, only to find he needs to call for Healing.

Pretty sweet moment when Perrin picks up a Maiden and tells her that's he's going to see Rand and they're not going to stop him.

When Moraine arrives, Heals and starts giving orders, Rand is like; "What the fuck you doing bitch. I give the orders around here. I don't care if my bed is soaked in my own blood and there's glass all over the floor, this is my bedroom and I wont be chased out of it by you or anyone else." Its stupid stubborn but awesome.

He also outright says what I was saying earlier; Moraine can advise all she wants, but its Rand who has the final say. He straight out tells her this.

And there is another bit, where Rand reveals he's been reading the Prophecies, and Moraine seems to think its a bad thing, cause he wouldn't understand them. Quick as the crack of a whip, Rand asks her to explain them to him, if she knows any better.

Even Lan agreed with Rand on this one.

She immediately changes the subject after that.

Then we swing by Thom and Mat; Mat still wants to GTFO of there, but something is stopping him; some feeling that he has to stay.

Then we drop in on Nyneave and Egwene, who are interrogating the Blacks they captured, both of whom are telling widely different stories.

And Nyneave and Egwene are still fighting. And my sympathy level is still 0.0.

Egwene resents that Nyneave is treating her like a child, and to be fair, Nyneave might be a little, but when Egwene snaps and sulks and pouts like this, she really is acting like a child.

And I have yet to see Nyneave making a truly bad choice; not yet.

Egwene's plan to use the World of Dreams at the end of DR was good, but she didn't have an end game; she got lucky when Mat finished the rescue for her.

And then the very first couple of lines of the next chapter are Moraine cursing out Rand's stubbornness, and Nyneave immedately enters Smug Mode

"We breed them that way at the Two Rivers"

You can practically hear the pride in her voice.

Fucking love Nyneave.

I used to hate her, but now I'm older, I'm like, she can be pretty damn cool, even if she can also be a bossy bitch.

 

[seitora]

Nynaeve at the end of Winter's Heart is boss enough to make up for most of the rest of the series had she been an unsympathetic bitch all the way through (and she wasn't).

 

[Ashaman]

After some arguing, Moraine agrees to share her plan with NEE.

She wants Rand to start a war with Illian, citing one of the Prophecies as guidance.

NEE are horrified, though Elayne at least sees the reasoning behind it.

Luckily, Rand disagrees with her interpretation.

This just cements my thoughts; Moraine thinks she knows what to do, but she doesn't. She's floundering.

Speaking of Egwene/Elaine one thing I remember is the girls honestly think they are at or above Rand in strength in the One Power.

I think I'm at this bit now. Egwene is talking to Rand, and she says "You are as strong as I. I know it."

Try an order of magnitude above.

Anyway; I credit Egwene for trying to teach him, but its a futile effort.

And then she almost ruins it when she 'breaks up with Rand', which would be fine, if she didn't think that he was hiding all his inner pain, and that Elayne would need to pick up the peices.

Truth is, he was wondering how to do the same.


Next thing of note is Lanfear; she comes to see him as Selene and reveals her true self to him.

Its all the same stuff as before "Glory, power and knowldge", though this ti,me it has context, and its just vague suggestions.

Also worthy of note is Lanfear talks about her time speaking to the Dark One.

Considering one of the prophecies/visions/dreams we've seen is Rand walking into the Pit, I'm going to guess that Rand has this talk in the final book.

 

[grant]

The prophecies thing is odd. You would think that people with more experience with the Old Tongue (he really couldn't think up a name for it?) like most Aes Sedai would be better equipped to guess at what the original writings meant.

As for Moraine's plan, remember that it would have eventually had Rand fighting Sammael. He barely managed to beat Ishamael through instinct (and we'll see later the dangers of using Callandor) and now she wants him to fight someone maybe not as powerful as Ishamael but certainly better than Rand is. And she assumes that if Rand won it would warn the Forsaken off for a while (even though she has no idea where the others are and whether or not Sammael has any of them nearby).

 

[Ashaman]

The prophecies thing is odd. You would think that people with more experience with the Old Tongue (he really couldn't think up a name for it?) like most Aes Sedai would be better equipped to guess at what the original writings meant.

As for Moraine's plan, remember that it would have eventually had Rand fighting Sammael. He barely managed to beat Ishamael through instinct (and we'll see later the dangers of using Callandor) and now she wants him to fight someone maybe not as powerful as Ishamael but certainly better than Rand is. And she assumes that if Rand won it would warn the Forsaken off for a while (even though she has no idea where the others are and whether or not Sammael has any of them nearby).

I think even the original writings are a mire of intertwined metaphorical and literal meaning, leaving it a mystery as to which is which.

And even then, its nothing without context.

Moraine tried to fit the context of "from the city, lost and forsaken" onto Illian, citing that the city under Sammael is surely a forsaken city.

It doesn't quite fit, but as she herself said "it fits as well as anything else"

Its a pity Rand didn't ask Mat to translate for him; he's is probably the one of has the greatest grasp of the Old Tongue at the moment, barring maybe a couple of Browns.

Even though he's in denial about it at the moment.

I think the problems with the prophecies is that they are vague as to what exactly they refer to; but that said, if you do know what they are, they make an incredible amount of sense.

And as for Moraine's plan - No it isn't very good, but I think that she's trusting in the powers of Callandor to tip the balance between power and skill in Rand's favour. Hell, it might of even worked. But it is not what Rand needs to do right now, and he knows it. The fact that Moraine is trying to push it is a mark against her.


After that confrontation with Lanfear, Rand leaves to find the Stone under attack. Finishing that off with a cool new move, sort of like lightning except with a homing function, we move onto the characters figuring out what to do next.

Egwene Dreams herself into the Waste, and meets a Wise One who tells her in no uncertain terms that she needs to be taught this crap. So Egwene is off to the Waste. Meanwhile, Nyneave and Elayne are destined for Tanichico.

Moraine twists Thom's arm, and it seems he's going with N_E.

Perrin finally hears that rumour he's been searching for, the one that'll get Faile gone somewhere safe - except its him that has to go. Back to the Two Rivers to save it from Whitecloaks. Faile wants to come too, but Perrin refuses, so she tricks Loial into taking her.

And Mat? He finally enters that Door, gets 6 answers instead of 3 and how he hates them.

Rand does the same, and makes his decision, but we do not yet know what that is.

Moraine too enters the doorway, but what questions she asks we do not yet know.


Thom's bit was really interesting, as we find out that the Red's acted illegally when they gentled Owen, something I hadn't known. Instead of doing what they should; taking him to Tar Valon for his trial (or whatever the fuck they call it, cause trial is definately the wrong word here) to be gentled, they did it on the spot and left him there for to the rest of the villagers tender mercies.

Its implied they killed him and his wife, or at least drove them to their deaths one way or another.

Fucking Reds. Jordan really did go far to make sure we hated the man hating bitches didn't he? Is there anything good and decent credited to a Red Sister in their history?


Mat's was also pretty interesting - It really does foreshadow his story, and his version of Two Rivers stubborness got him 6 answers instead of the usual 3.

 

[Belgarion213]

I'm not sure we got a good red sister.

I kind of liked the scene with Rand/Matt/Moiraine coming out the doorway.

Also your about to reach one of my favorite scenes where Rand does the whole 'lets leave Callandor behind' thing.

 

[seitora]

There was the one good sister in the Tower, Pevara, who joined the Black Ajah hunt. Then that one gal who gets forcibly bonded by Logain (Tavra or something?). Maybe one of the sisters Rand stills who decides to start being nice.

Everyone else is either a backstabber or a Darkfriend. Or both.

 

[Ashaman]

I'm not sure we got a good red sister.

I kind of liked the scene with Rand/Matt/Moiraine coming out the doorway.

Also your about to reach one of my favorite scenes where Rand does the whole 'lets leave Callandor behind' thing.

The Rand/Mat/Moraine scene was pretty good.

I actually feel a little sorry for the Red Ajah, because its found itself filled with Red Sisters.

The Ajah denotes the primary driving force, and the Red Ajah deals with men of can channel.

They provide a service; a dirty and reviled one, but also neccessary.

Unfortunately this profession also attracts women that hate and revile men.

They don't do what they do because they think they have to. They do it because they hate men. And any group that do what they do mostly because of sexim or racism is bound to be hated.

 

[grant]

There are a handful of useful Reds. Unfortunately they don't just get pushed into 'inclined to dislike men' territory but straight through that into 'most of our authority figures are either incompetent sadistic buffoons or about to turn Black Ajah if they haven't already'.

Incidentally, having read Jordan's Conan books I strongly suspect he either liked BDSM (with women as masochists) or the majority of his audience did.

And the prophecy stuff. Obviously writers need to keep it vague otherwise the people hearing them would know exactly what to do when. Still incredibly irritating when we meet more than a few people who think that they know exactly what to do even though it's fairly well established that these foretellings and prophecies are very vague and can be interpreted many different ways.

And I never really got why they simply Gentled (Severed) his nephew on the spot instead of bringing him to the tower. If he was too dangerous to keep prisoner you would assume the Tower has a rule 'you can cut his link on the spot' which would mean it technically wasn't illegal or if it's absolutely required to bring him back to the Tower (which would fit with my opinion about the intelligence of authority figures here) then they did break the rules and nothing ever happened (which doesn't seem likely). Moraine knowing about it when she has no business investigating suggests that the entire Tower knew.

In other words either it technically wasn't against the rules and the Reds might be less culpable or it was against the rules and Aes Sedai acted out of character by not even reprimanding them.

 

[Ashaman]

From the way Moraine phrased it, the Red's were in the wrong, and were excused for it even when they shouldn't have been.

Considering Logain and Taim were both being taken to the Tower to be gentled, I imagine it is a rule that they have to have to be sentenced there.

But I think its less the 'gentled on the spot' that was wrong; depending on the sitation, it might have been neccessary.

Rather it was the 'left him to his neighbours' part.

I think the tower offers protection (in its own way) to men who can channel, by taking them inside its walls. At the very least they can live comfortably before they die.

But no. Those Red's left him there to be torn apart. Its impled his wife commited suicide not much later; weather its from shame (at marrying a channeller) or greif (her husband just died).

If the Red's had done what they were supposed to, both he and his wife may have lived. Well, he only a little longer, but who knows what would have happened with her.

 

[Estrecca]

I think that it is mentioned or implied at some point (by Cadsuane?) that there was a major campaign that led to mass gentlings under irregular circumstances around the time Thom's relative died.

 

[Ashaman]

I've just realised something; Warders.

What the fuck happened to the Black's Warders?

There are a full 13 of them, but not a single one of their Warders was mentioned. And 2 are from the Green Ajah.

Did It miss something, or did their Warders gat completely forgotten about?



Where did I leave off. With Thom?

Well, after that we have a breif moment with Min who sees glory in Logain's furture, then we are back to Tear.

We are treated to 3 separate view points at once; the first is Perrin, who is furious with Faile, partly for following him and partly for tricking Loial. She means him to bend knee to her, and he's not having any of it.

Two Rivers stubborness really does run deep.

I can see why its considered their defining trait.

Any way, Perrin, Gaul (the Aiel Perrin saved in DR), Loial, Faile and 2 Maidens of the spear enter the ways.

Perrin has a bit of a struggle leaving Rand, because he can literally feel their Ta'veren pulling at each other like two whirlpools.

Considering Mat has described a similar phenomenon, this is an actual thing.

That said, Perrin leaves with Rand's blessing; Mat knows all about it too, but Moraine and Egwene know nothing. The latter doesn't even know the Two Rivers is in trouble.

Then we swing by Nyneave and Elayne, who bored the Sea Folk's ship for free; they know Rand is their chosen one, and any friend of the Chosen One is a friend of theirs.

It also reveals something I suspected by never said. The reason NEE was so hard on Mat was because he hurt their pride by saving them.

Thom and Julin join them, and then we're back to Rand, or rather Moraine's view of Rand.

And it basically a chapter of Rand being awesome, giving orders and plotting plots, then putting his crystal Sword back ino the Stone.

Moraine spends most of the chapter annoyed; first at Rand, because he hasn't informed her of his plans. Then at Thom, for being a good advisor to Rand; she also reveals that she really did guilt Thom into going with Elayne to get him out of her hair. She wants to be Rand's sole advisor. Then at Rand some more, when he gives his orders; he isn't doing what she wants him to do. She's doubly annoyed when Rand quotes the prophecies on her.

In other words, this chapter is Rand being awesome, and Moraine being annoyed at him because he's being awesome without her.

Oh, and just to really drive Moraine's anger, it isn't until Perrin is long gone that anyone tells her so.

Then we travel by Portal Stone from Rand's POV, and he's portrayed as a sad hero. He wants to help all the people he sees, but he has other duites and responsiblities, and has to go.

There are a couple of annoyancies with Egwene on the way; well, only minor. First she talks about him and Elayne, and how they parted. Rand is like "She said she wanted to go. She wouldn't have stayed even if I asked. So why would I ask, especially when I know its better for her to go?" I can understand Egwne's exasperation, but I can understand Rand's side too, somewhat.

The other thing is just as minor; but its one of those things that bother me about Egwene. She displays a hesitance/annoyance as a piece of Aeil culture. Rand and she talk about it, and Rand is fairly alright tith it; just as he's about to explain why she shouldn't judge them, she gives him the speech he was about to give her, and then acts as though he was the one unsure about it.

Oh, and Moraine also echos my thoughts on Egwene; a girl who says and does things, even though she knows not of which she speaks.

Then we go to Rhuidean; Rand and Mat together, Avidenha shortly after (though she enters before) and finally Moraine.

Rand's adventure through time is really interesting world building; the Aiel are tratiors to the Way of the Leaf, but the Travelling People are traitors to the Aiel's purpose

And finally we come to Mat, who is reluctant to enter, but knows he has no choice; he meets the Fox people and gets some stuff, and then he and Rand ran out of their as another Bubble of evil bursts on them.

It was nice seeing R_M being broish again. Maybe not happy, but they are certainly more relaxed and themselves than they've got to be in a very long time.

 

[Estrecca]

I've just realised something; Warders.

What the fuck happened to the Black's Warders?

There are a full 13 of them, but not a single one of their Warders was mentioned. And 2 are from the Green Ajah.

Did It miss something, or did their Warders gat completely forgotten about?

Not forgotten.

If you are really interested, the Blacks with bonded Warders are simply masking their links to prevent them from following, because of a roughly even mix of Darkfriends and non-Darkfriends among those Warders.

 

[Ashaman]

I've just realised something; Warders.

What the fuck happened to the Black's Warders?

There are a full 13 of them, but not a single one of their Warders was mentioned.? And 2 are from the Green Ajah.

Did It miss something, or did their Warders gat completely forgotten about?

Not forgotten.

If you are really interested, the Blacks with bonded Warders are simply masking their links to prevent them from following, because of a roughly even mix of Darkfriends and non-Darkfriends among those Warders.

Is that how it is.

Fair enough.

Its just something I thought of when I was double checking something in the thread, and saw that I mentioned that NEE don't seem to realize the importance of Warders, and it just kind of clicked that they don't have Warder adverseries, and why the fuck not?

I think that it is mentioned or implied at some point (by Cadsuane?) that there was a major campaign that led to mass gentlings under irregular circumstances around the time Thom's relative died.

I'm having some more of those vague memories; wasn't this in response to some rumours that the True Dragon had in fact been Reborn, and the Aes Sedai were scrambling to put him down without thinking.



We come back to Perrin, who meets Trollocs at the Manetheren Gate, and then finds out that all the Wolves in the Two Rivers are dead.

And in the Wolf Dream too. Slayer has been busy; I have no fucking clue who slayer is though.

One of the Forsaken? Maybe.

A creature of the Snakes and Foxes? I just don't know.

I've honestly completely blanked about it, even though I think I was far enough in the series to have his identity revelaed to me, but I can't be sure of that.

Then Perrin arrives at the Wine Spring and finds out his family was killed.

Shit. I'd forgotten about that. Killed by Trollocs and buried under an apple tree. Perrin's mother liked apples. :blue:

This is pretty much the part where Faile stops acting like a bitch; she helps him mourn, and then she encourages him to start defending his people.

After that, we find 2 Aes Sedai; Veren and Alanna, and their Warders, 1 apeice. Apparently Alanna brought 2, but one was killed by WC.

They say they are their to collect girls who can channel; I am immediately calling them liars.

My bet is that its nothing more than an excuse, though a terribly good one.

They were sniffing about the 3 boys.

I also gained and lost respect for Egwene's mother in this chapter; I gained it when she told Cenn not to fuck around, and was generally thinking things through like a boss, but then lost it abit when she snapped at Perrin for treating Aes Sedai with suspicion. I was just think "You have like, literally no idea what the fuck is going on. Let the man talk."

And this line made me cringe.

"I am not so desparate as to Bond a man against his will. Not yet" This from Alanna.

Yeah, not yet is right you quasi-rapist.

I'm actually excited about this part of the book. I remember almost none of it.

The only thing I do remember is that Perrin takes a Trolloc arrow at some point; the rest of it pretty much a blank.

That said, I'm also getting curious about Rand and Mat; Nyneave and Elayne I can wait for, but wouldn't mind more of.

 

[Estrecca]

And in the Wolf Dream too. Slayer has been busy; I have no fucking clue who slayer is though.

One of the Forsaken? Maybe.

A creature of the Snakes and Foxes? I just don't know.

I've honestly completely blanked about it, even though I think I was far enough in the series to have his identity revelaed to me, but I can't be sure of that.

He is the result of Rand's uncle and Lan's cousin doing the Fusion Dance after killing each other and then getting empowered by the Dark One for unclear reasons.

No, seriously.

He has been kind of there since early on with brief mentions concerning his role in the dark prophecies and such.

 

[seitora]

For some reason I was thinking the Darkfriends knew the DR was reborn and was trying to push the Red Ajah into hunting down all men who can channel, but somehow I'm pretty sure that's not right. Even if they knew he was reborn, they'd have to know he was reborn very recently and so couldn't have been an adult at the time the Reds were hunting.

 

[grant]

It is mentioned in a later book that there was a rash of male channelers appearing, sort of the Wheel trying to get its Dragon and the other men being failures in a sense. Taim and Logain were just the latest and most famous (and also possibly why they were so powerful).
Of course considering what we find out about the Aes Sedai people (more importantly their fates) who first knew that Rand had been born (in a prequel I think) the Black Ajah had probably already suspected that he was either already born or would be born soon.

And something that always bugged me about the Black Ajah. In The Dragon Reborn there are definitely other Aes Sedai besides Siuan who know what Liandrin has done (or at least that she has murdered more than a few people). Considering that Aes Sedai physically cannot directly lie it makes events in later books incredibly stupid. All they have to do is openly say 'Liandrin killed these people and anyone who could do that with Saidar almost definitely is Black Ajah'. But no, people are stupid because drama requires them to be stupid.

Disappointed that we barely get anything on Alanna, even after her... encounter with Rand. Books and books later and they barely have any conversations?

 

[Ashaman]

IIRC, after the Foretelling that only Moraine and Suian heard, there was a rumour that the Dragon had been Reborn.

But it lacked the context of "has taken his first breath on Dragonmount (this very moment)

it sparked a aggrevated hunt.

I think.

Its been a very long time.

And in the Wolf Dream too.? Slayer has been busy; I have no fucking clue who slayer is though.

One of the Forsaken?? Maybe.

A creature of the Snakes and Foxes?? I just don't know.

I've honestly completely blanked about it, even though I think I was far enough in the series to have his identity revelaed to me, but I can't be sure of that.

He is the result of Rand's uncle and Lan's cousin doing the Fusion Dance after killing each other and then getting empowered by the Dark One for unclear reasons.

No, seriously.

He has been kind of there since early on with brief mentions concerning his role in the dark prophecies and such.

So Slayer is the fusion between Luc and Isam mentioned in the Dark Prophecies in GH.

And what do you know, their is a Lord Luc in the Two Rivers right now.