Durandall's works

[Shiakou]

Dude, none of that actually goes against what I said. You're just complaining about the sudden twist/exaggeration of motives and personalities, which is par for the course for stories like that. And hell, I could argue with you all day about how Lancer himself was forced to obey Command Seals and stuff to kill himself/Bazette, but all of that's nitpicking.

The point, when it comes down to it, is that New Game+ treats Koizumi as a joke, but nothing more malicious than that. Hell I've seen worse treatments suggested here for more innocent characters (for instance, I remember one idea where it was suggested that Kunikida and Taniguchi keep dying and being brought back to life because Haruhi keeps forgetting they're dead).

If you consider that bashing, then how do you reconcile the fact that New Game+ Haruhi herself did the opposite of her KBDH characterization (where she wanted to be responsible for her powers)(hell, every other Durandall fanfic has her learning to be more responsible) or that Nagato was all but replaced by someone else? Or that Kyon was basically useless for the entire story?

Whatever the author's personal bias, New Game+ did not single out Koizumi for "bashing" nor did it do so in a particularly vicious manner. Everyone got hit with the funny stick in that one. If New Game+ Haruhi showed up in KBDH, she'd be treated as a villain.

I suggest you stop taking New Game+ so seriously.

 

[shioran toushin]

Dude, none of that actually goes against what I said. You're just complaining about the sudden twist/exaggeration of motives and personalities, which is par for the course for stories like that. And hell, I could argue with you all day about how Lancer himself was forced to obey Command Seals and stuff to kill himself/Bazette, but all of that's nitpicking.

The point, when it comes down to it, is that New Game+ treats Koizumi as a joke, but nothing more malicious than that. Hell I've seen worse treatments suggested here for more innocent characters (for instance, I remember one idea where it was suggested that Kunikida and Taniguchi keep dying and being brought back to life because Haruhi keeps forgetting they're dead).

If you consider that bashing, then how do you reconcile the fact that New Game+ Haruhi herself did the opposite of her KBDH characterization (where she wanted to be responsible for her powers)(hell, every other Durandall fanfic has her learning to be more responsible) or that Nagato was all but replaced by someone else? Or that Kyon was basically useless for the entire story?

Whatever the author's personal bias, New Game+ did not single out Koizumi for "bashing" nor did it do so in a particularly vicious manner. Everyone got hit with the funny stick in that one. If New Game+ Haruhi showed up in KBDH, she'd be treated as a villain.

I suggest you stop taking New Game+ so seriously.

meh, sometimes i hate text, but i emant that i like Lancer better than Itsuki and i said that she replaced Nagato with her pet, and as for Kyon? while i would like to say that he was useless, in reality he could have done nothing and without the involvement from the IDSE, Time Travelers and the Organization HE IS just an average Joe.

heck i like NG+ but treating characters as the buts of a joke IS bashing,

Bashing is a harsh, gratuitous, prejudicial attack on a person, group or subject. Literally, bashing is a term meaning to hit or assault, but when it is used as a suffix, or in conjunction with a noun indicating the subject being attacked, it is normally used to imply that the act is motivated by bigotry. The term is also used metaphorically, to describe verbal or critical assaults. Topics which attract bashing tend to be highly partisan and personally sensitive topics for the bashers, the victims or both. Common areas include religion, nationality, sexuality and politics.

him being the butt of a Joke of "no you actually weren't transfered here" would be, as you said, 'funny', but the forced crossdressing, the whole, "he'll be fine once the stress gets him and he goes to study Veterinary" is bashing.

heck the only character named not bashed were Haruhi, Nagato (who was outright replaced with a Yes-woman) and Kyon.
i agree that the fic is not to be taken seriously, but that doesn't mean that such thing didn't happen.
i mean, IIIRC PL said that CED Naruto was 'crack' and should not be taken seriosly too.

 

[Shiakou]

Dude, none of that actually goes against what I said. You're just complaining about the sudden twist/exaggeration of motives and personalities, which is par for the course for stories like that. And hell, I could argue with you all day about how Lancer himself was forced to obey Command Seals and stuff to kill himself/Bazette, but all of that's nitpicking.

The point, when it comes down to it, is that New Game+ treats Koizumi as a joke, but nothing more malicious than that. Hell I've seen worse treatments suggested here for more innocent characters (for instance, I remember one idea where it was suggested that Kunikida and Taniguchi keep dying and being brought back to life because Haruhi keeps forgetting they're dead).

meh, sometimes i hate text, but i emant that i like Lancer better than Itsuki and i said that she replaced Nagato with her pet, and as for Kyon? while i would like to say that he was useless, in reality he could have done nothing and without the involvement from the IDSE, Time Travelers and the Organization HE IS just an average Joe.

heck i like NG+ but treating characters as the buts of a joke IS bashing,

Bashing is a harsh, gratuitous, prejudicial attack on a person, group or subject. Literally, bashing is a term meaning to hit or assault, but when it is used as a suffix, or in conjunction with a noun indicating the subject being attacked, it is normally used to imply that the act is motivated by bigotry. The term is also used metaphorically, to describe verbal or critical assaults. Topics which attract bashing tend to be highly partisan and personally sensitive topics for the bashers, the victims or both. Common areas include religion, nationality, sexuality and politics.

him being the butt of a Joke of "no you actually weren't transfered here" would be, as you said, 'funny', but the forced crossdressing, the whole, "he'll be fine once the stress gets him and he goes to study Veterinary" is bashing.

heck the only character named not bashed were Haruhi, Nagato (who was outright replaced with a Yes-woman) and Kyon.
i agree that the fic is not to be taken seriously, but that doesn't mean that such thing didn't happen.
i mean, IIIRC PL said that CED Naruto was 'crack' and should not be taken seriosly too.

1. The whole point of Kyon is that he's a very important person despite being "normal". New Game+ took that away as easily as it took away Koizumi's status as a serious character. In other words, it's perfectly consistent with how it treated everyone.

2. So being turned into a complete sociopath, or getting your personality completely replaced (hello there fanon Hiraga Saito), or being turned into a helpless plaything of a sociopath goddess doesn't count as "bashing" . . . but being forcibly enrolled in other schools counts? Dude, you're worse than Hermione Granger.

3. That is a very literal definition of "bashing" that ignores the context of the story, said context being that "everyone got hit with the funny stick too", "it's a parody", and "it's the total opposite of everything else the author writes".

4. By that logic, every parody ever is about character bashing. Every instant where a character is a woobie played for laughs is character bashing. Every comedy ever is just like CED because hey, they make fun of people, right? Well, no. CED counted as bashing because literally EVERYTHING PL wrote was meant to enforce the view that the bashed characters deserved what they got. New Game+, on the other hand, presented Mikuru and Koizumi as actual victims. There are no long-winded rants on how evil they are, just the same old Haruhi off-color remarks along the same lines of "why didn't crabs evolve to be easier to eat?" that she had in canon.

 

[shioran toushin]

1.- but the whole reason of Kyon being a

a very important person despite being "normal". New Game+ took that away as easily as it took away Koizumi's status as a serious character.

was because there was no situation for him being 'awesome' and he still was the center of the universe for that Haruhi, and one of those reasons were the fact that koizumi's, Nagato's and Mikuru's roles were not there, remember that baring the whole Sasaki plot, everything else that kyon did ws because those three characters gave him a reason and means to do it.
2.- Nagato doesn't count because there is no Nagato there, while Koizumi and Mikuru were being actively bashed:

a harsh, gratuitous, prejudicial attack on a person

but i think that being forced to crossdress in public is OK with you along with being sent to an all-opposite gender school just to feel uncomfortable, being sent to 'the delinquent capital of the city', being sent to other continent only because they bother you with the only reason so you get so stressed that you drop into a veterinary school, or engeenering 'accidents' like being drenched in ink, exploding flour, etc.
and i did comment on that Haruhi (many references to CED).
but i guess that because og your Hermione Granger comment, Nagato needed to die (well she died as a character) or being subject to violence, but guess what, public humilliation and potentially dangerous situations happened (that to Koizumi,for the former, and Mikuru for both) are needed to it be considered bashing along with a rant for why those characters deserved it.
4.- well, if you find bashing funny that is your problem, and as for parodies, you don't need to perform

a harsh, gratuitous, prejudicial attack on a person

on the characters to make a parody.
or do you find the whole shit that is in the Naruto Fandom where Naruto makes fun of Sasuke's dead family fun?
and Haruhi is sociopathic
just checking, do you read BD's Big Human on campus?
if yes, you consider Saffron's or Moka's treatment as bashing?
it is funny, but even the author has recognized and IIRC was his intention to bash that character along with Moka.

 

[Shiakou]

1. So New Game+ took away Kyon's resources, goals, and meaning as a character, and you think he got off better than Koizumi? Dude, no matter how "logical" the plot contrived to make it so, that still means that Kyon is as much a butt of the joke as Koizumi is. (And that's fine. It's a parody.)

2. No it doesn't. In literature, the readers serve as the audience so "bashing" can take place whether the victim is alone or not. Furthermore, forcing a person to cross-dress is a staple for anime and manga, and is done even for kiddy shows like Pokemon. Likewise sending Koizumi to the "delinquent capita" of the city is only a bad thing if you haven't watched Cromartie High (here's a clue: it's actually a pretty okay place). As for Mikuru, New Game+ Haruhi's deeds towards Mikuru were no worse than forcing her to dress in a bunny suit or having Koizumi molest her while drugged. The difference is that Kyon did not catch on.

4. Then if you insist on such a pedantic definition, then Durandall bashed everyone . . . because he made fun of everyone. (And yes, I view his reinterpretation of Haruhi, Kyon, and Nagato's characters as on the same level as what he did to Koizumi and Mikuru in-story.)

 

[shioran toushin]

1.- He at least got treated with Respect.
2.- the thing is that Koizumi was forced (underlined so your mind can understand the whole point of why it was an atack to his person) to crossdress in public, from Kitago to that school, and for Hikami, well, would you like to live in Sin City? even if it wasn't 'so bad'? the point is that HE didn't know that, heck noone who isn't going there knows that 'all in all it's a pretty OK place to live' it has the whole Delinquent Capital fame attached to it, for everyone not in the know that place is harsh, but you are using Meta-knowledge to justify it, as for Mikuru? i agree that Haruhi did more aggraviating things to her in canon, but at least she had someone to say Stop in here it was gratuitous so she didn't meet Kyon in the first place.
4.- so if someone did the same to you it would be funny... man i get the whole 'it's fiction so it's funny', but seriously, that is pretty obtuse.
basically you would think that Kotohana or Yuno Gasai were fun when in their Yandere killing sprees or Dokuro-chan killing kusakabe with her mace because 'he gets better'.

 

[Shiakou]

1. No, he got the illusion of respect, but got manipulated and blinded in reality.

2. Yes, Koizumi was forced, and yes, Mikuru could have gotten better treatment. But it is in the spirit of comedies and parodies to make characters suffer gratuitously; the absurdity and exaggeration is part of what makes it funny. (In other words, getting hit by a pie isn't funny but watching someone else get hit by a pie is, especially if it's gratuitous. Humor is subjective like that.) Also, Haruhi has always been about doing things gratuitously, even in canon. It's actually less so here because here she actually did most things on purpose.

4. You're exaggerating, dude. Forcing someone to cross dress or tripping up a time-traveler's plans can be funny, even if the characters are sympathetic. Having them killed is another thing (although that can still be sorta WTF!funny). If Haruhi had actually killed Koizumi or Mikuru, that would have gone too far. And let's be fair; from Haruhi's point of view, Koizumi and Big!Mikuru really did try to manipulate her. She's a petty god playing with her powers and pranking people NOT a soul-hungry demon.

Come on dude, you're basically saying that pranks aren't funny or that harem hijinks aren't entertaining because the people involved don't deserve to suffer. The answer differs from person to person obviously, and there's always cases of going too far, but by and large it's an accepted form of humor to watch a fictional character being put through the wringer. The Greeks, Shakespeare, and frikkn' Pokemon got that, why can't you?

 

[shioran toushin]

1. No, he got the illusion of respect, but got manipulated and blinded in reality.

2. Yes, Koizumi was forced, and yes, Mikuru could have gotten better treatment. But it is in the spirit of comedies and parodies to make characters suffer gratuitously; the absurdity and exaggeration is part of what makes it funny. (In other words, getting hit by a pie isn't funny but watching someone else get hit by a pie is, especially if it's gratuitous. Humor is subjective like that.) Also, Haruhi has always been about doing things gratuitously, even in canon. It's actually less so here because here she actually did most things on purpose.

4. You're exaggerating, dude. Forcing someone to cross dress or tripping up a time-traveler's plans can be funny, even if the characters are sympathetic. Having them killed is another thing (although that can still be sorta WTF!funny). If Haruhi had actually killed Koizumi or Mikuru, that would have gone too far. And let's be fair; from Haruhi's point of view, Koizumi and Big!Mikuru really did try to manipulate her. She's a petty god playing with her powers and pranking people NOT a soul-hungry demon.

Come on dude, you're basically saying that pranks aren't funny or that harem hijinks aren't entertaining because the people involved don't deserve to suffer. The answer differs from person to person obviously, and there's always cases of going too far, but by and large it's an accepted form of humor to watch a fictional character being put through the wringer. The Greeks, Shakespeare, and frikkn' Pokemon got that, why can't you?

because i have a little thing called empathy?

ok i thing this is a problem of miscomunication.
i say: It IS bashing and it's gratuitous atack.
you say: but it's not so bad, it's a little thing and it's funny.
basically we are agreeing in that, only that i am saying that it is still wrong.

and there is always someone who thinks that tripping someone from atop a large stair is funny (or seeing someone falling down the stairs because they tripped or were tripped).
i did say that it was bashing, and it is, you haven't made any claims to counter it, but justify it because it's funny as long as it doesn't happen to me (or even it would be funny if it happened to me, afterall hindsight is 20/20).

i didn't say that it was Evil Wrong and i did say that i like that fic, but it is still bashing, just like most pranks still cause someone misery/humilliation/etc. to make others (and himself/herself) laugh.
they are wrong, but they are accepted, just like being an alcoholic or being a smoker is legal , them being it doesn't mean that they are healthy (smoker talking here btw).

 

[Shiakou]

You can have too much of a good thing, even empathy.

Since you've given your definition let me give my preferred definition of the concept of <a href='http://fanlore.org/wiki/Character_Bashing' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Character Bashing</a>. The basic concepts are such;

1a. A character who is forced to suffer but retains his original/canon characterization is not being bashed, regardless of whether the fanfic author hates said character.

1b. A character who is portrayed in an non-canonically negative light simply because said character is hated is being bashed.

2a. A character who is jokingly written to cause his own bad karma is being bashed.

2b. A character who is written to be innocent, defiant, or competently accepting of his own suffering is not being bashed.

With the first set of definitions: In New Game+, Koizumi retained a mostly canon characterization. I'll go as far as to say that anyone who did not already hate Koizumi before starting the fic would actually empathize more with Koizumi, seeing him as a <a href='http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWoobie' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>woobie</a>. Whatever his personal feelings for the character, Durandall clearly respected Koizumi enough not to turn him into a two-dimensional or warped version of the original character. (And while he does turn Koizumi into a villain in another fic, that Koizumi was given some good reasons for doing so).

By contrast, Haruhi was turned into a cackling sociopath with no qualms about brainwashing Yuki, and Kyon into a nearly two-dimensional character.

With the second set of definitions, Koizumi is, in-fic, clearly mostly innocent and Haruhi is written as a petty goddess. Contrast this with CED where most of the entire in-fic universe apparently agrees that Sasuke had it coming, and those who disagree are stupid/villainous themselves. Contrast that with Hayate the Combat Butler where Hayate is the universal chew toy and yet is still presented as a good guy (and Hayate was forced to cross-dress too).

See, in most fandoms, bashing doesn't just mean "turning a character into a joke". It actually means more akin to just "hating the character". Koizumi's predicament may be a bit harsh y real-world standards, but by bashfic standards it's practically decent.

 

[shioran toushin]

from your own website:

Some fandoms include character-bashing in their definition of hatefic, which not only includes stories and tirades intent on humiliating specific characters

Haruhi's actions against Mikuru:

Character bashing frequently occurs when the hated character is seen as a threat to the fan's preferred ship, either as a third party in a love triangle, or a het love interest to one member of a slash or femslash pairing.

and what fucking charaacterization? he served as a freaking running gag where he wanted to get on SOS (wich didn't exist because they joined the literature club) there is nothing of Koizumi there, he was freakingly mono-dimensional, heck Kyon got more respect than that, even if you think don't think so.
by the way, what you said doesn't appear anywhwre in that page.

Character bashing includes, but is not limited to, making characters look bad because you think that they are a threat to your OTP or your favourite character; making characters look bad because you think it makes your favourite character look good in comparison; characters acting severely out of character - plotting murder, committing rape, beating the hell out of people - for no good reason that is explained in the story when there is no indication in canon that they would behave in such a way.

 

[ToastedPine]

I talked to him about character readings (though I didn't know it was him until after he got really mad and kicked me out of his channel).

He said I should reflect on myself and see what I did wrong. I think part of it was that we got off on the wrong foot. I said that I enjoyed "Meet the Suzumiyas". He and that author have some bad blood between them (which I also did not know about, but what I did wrong was that I still brought it up in conversation after though I didn't mean anything bad by it).

Brian has a very specific interpretation of Suzumiya canon. It's really hard to match because of how specific it is. For example, Haruhi shifts her attitudes quite subtly to me throughout, but Brian's standards means you have to match it exactly to when it happens in canon, and while it seems obvious to him, it's not something I can do easily.

I've read the first 3 chapters of Later, and I've finished Sympathy. They're both pretty good (I hated Sympathy at first, but the ending ironed everything out). The setup puzzles me a bit because from my understanding Haruhi wanted Kyon to feel what it's like to be her, but it seems like she unilaterally gave kyon carte blanc power and let him decide all the terms (This makes sense in hindsight, but does feel like the goal of having the shoe on the other foot gets fuzzy to me). I'm also following his advice that I reread all the Haruhi Novels, which seriously cuts in to writing and work-life balance time. I'll try to follow through as much as possible since I do respect writing as a craft.

My impressions of his works are just that, impressions, maybe I read sympathy completely wrong.

 

[Ashaman]

I agree with you that her attitude change was rather subtle.

If I had to pin down the point when she really did change, it was Sighs, which takes plave in october, iirc.

But even then it was a mostly gradual change.

 

[Stormfury]

I talked to him about character readings (though I didn't know it was him until after he got really mad and kicked me out of his channel).

He said I should reflect on myself and see what I did wrong. I think part of it was that we got off on the wrong foot. I said that I enjoyed "Meet the Suzumiyas". He and that author have some bad blood between them (which I also did not know about, but what I did wrong was that I still brought it up in conversation after though I didn't mean anything bad by it).

Brian has a very specific interpretation of Suzumiya canon. It's really hard to match because of how specific it is. For example, Haruhi shifts her attitudes quite subtly to me throughout, but Brian's standards means you have to match it exactly to when it happens in canon, and while it seems obvious to him, it's not something I can do easily.

I've read the first 3 chapters of Later, and I've finished Sympathy. They're both pretty good (I hated Sympathy at first, but the ending ironed everything out). The setup puzzles me a bit because from my understanding Haruhi wanted Kyon to feel what it's like to be her, but it seems like she unilaterally gave kyon carte blanc power and let him decide all the terms (This makes sense in hindsight, but does feel like the goal of having the shoe on the other foot gets fuzzy to me). I'm also following his advice that I reread all the Haruhi Novels, which seriously cuts in to writing and work-life balance time. I'll try to follow through as much as possible since I do respect writing as a craft.

My impressions of his works are just that, impressions, maybe I read sympathy completely wrong.

I personally love Durandall's work, but most especially I love his Kyon. Not just the character himself, but the narrative style that Kyon, well, narrates in, feels so natural to me. It feels exactly to me what I remember from the anime episodes I've seen, and it gives the stories that extra something to them that most Haruhi stories seem to lack.

This is felt even moreso when the story shifts to another characters perspective, and the narrative style shifts accordingly.


I can understand why some folks wouldnt like some of his stories (though judging New Game + as a bashfic rather then a crack parody seems rather silly to me), but I personally enjoy all of them.

 

[shioran toushin]

he, i did never classified it as a bashfic (tough what he did to most characters could count towards it, i suppose), what i said was that it contained bashing, and outright Nagato-in-name-only and that was the whole point of the convo with Shiakou, me saying that gratuitous attacks/hummiliations are considered bashin and him sayint to not take it too seriously (Shiakou feel freee to correct this point) and IIRC we have both stated that we liked his works.
but i do agree with you that his Kyon dialogue feels right and that has spoiled me about how i feel Kyoun should be narrated or narrate things in fanfiction

 

[Shiakou]

from your own website:

Some fandoms include character-bashing in their definition of hatefic, which not only includes stories and tirades intent on humiliating specific characters

Haruhi's actions against Mikuru:

Character bashing frequently occurs when the hated character is seen as a threat to the fan's preferred ship, either as a third party in a love triangle, or a het love interest to one member of a slash or femslash pairing.

and what fucking charaacterization? he served as a freaking running gag where he wanted to get on SOS (wich didn't exist because they joined the literature club) there is nothing of Koizumi there, he was freakingly mono-dimensional, heck Kyon got more respect than that, even if you think don't think so.
by the way, what you said doesn't appear anywhwre in that page.

Character bashing includes, but is not limited to, making characters look bad because you think that they are a threat to your OTP or your favourite character; making characters look bad because you think it makes your favourite character look good in comparison; characters acting severely out of character - plotting murder, committing rape, beating the hell out of people - for no good reason that is explained in the story when there is no indication in canon that they would behave in such a way.

Dude, you have to stop taking things out of context. It's not healthy.

You're also using two different meanings for "bashing". The first is basically when one character is attacked by another character. (This is the real-life definition of bashing.) The second is basically character assassination (that is, their characterization itself is under attack) (This is the literary definition of bashing often used by fanfics). While both can appear at the same time, they're still different things.

According to the first definition.

1a. Yes, Haruhi, as a character, was technically bashing (in other words, attacking) Mikuru; Durandall wasn't. There's a difference, unless you think Durandall actually wants canon Haruhi to be the same as her New Game+ version.

1b. Furthermore, Haruhi "bashing" Mikuru is canon, and also often played as comedy.

1c. We were talking about whether Koizumi's treatment counted as character bashing by the author, as opposed to "character bashing" by other characters. The former is frowned upon, the latter happens in practically every story with conflict between two or more characters.

2. And Haruhi can be summed up as "petty goddess". Again, context. We're dealing with a comedy one-shot, so there's no need for too much characterization; what's important is whether the current characterization is appropriate for the setting and if it's canonical. If the characterization in a fanfic is both negative and non-canonical, then it's character bashing.

3. What I said doesn't appear word-for-word because it's a summation. If you actually read the entire article as an article instead of trying to pedantically looking for scraps, you'll see it too.

he, i did never classified it as a bashfic (tough what he did to most characters could count towards it, i suppose), what i said was that it contained bashing, and outright Nagato-in-name-only and that was the whole point of the convo with Shiakou, me saying that gratuitous attacks/hummiliations are considered bashin and him sayint to not take it too seriously (Shiakou feel freee to correct this point) and IIRC we have both stated that we liked his works.
but i do agree with you that his Kyon dialogue feels right and that has spoiled me about how i feel Kyoun should be narrated or narrate things in fanfiction

I think I see the problem. You use "bashing" as it's defined in the english Wikipedia article. Unfortunately, that definition is for real life events (such as a mugger "bashing" a victim). It has little to do with character bashing in literature, which is what most fanfic writers/readers are familiar with. So when you say that the fic bashed Koizumi, I think you meant "Koizumi got physically attacked" whereas most of us misunderstood it to mean "Koizumi became a target of vehement and unreasonable hatred from the author".

There is a Spanish Wikipedia article/definition of character bashing which is closer to the literary meaning and mentions how it pertains to anime and manga, but the English definition only has character bashing as a blurb in the last line, listing it as a criticism of a character or work (which is, frankly, kinda missing the point). They're not the same thing dude.

 

[shioran toushin]

from your own website:

Some fandoms include character-bashing in their definition of hatefic, which not only includes stories and tirades intent on humiliating specific characters

Haruhi's actions against Mikuru:

Character bashing frequently occurs when the hated character is seen as a threat to the fan's preferred ship, either as a third party in a love triangle, or a het love interest to one member of a slash or femslash pairing.

and what fucking charaacterization? he served as a freaking running gag where he wanted to get on SOS (wich didn't exist because they joined the literature club) there is nothing of Koizumi there, he was freakingly mono-dimensional, heck Kyon got more respect than that, even if you think don't think so.
by the way, what you said doesn't appear anywhwre in that page.

Character bashing includes, but is not limited to, making characters look bad because you think that they are a threat to your OTP or your favourite character; making characters look bad because you think it makes your favourite character look good in comparison; characters acting severely out of character - plotting murder, committing rape, beating the hell out of people - for no good reason that is explained in the story when there is no indication in canon that they would behave in such a way.

Dude, you have to stop taking things out of context. It's not healthy.

You're also using two different meanings for "bashing". The first is basically when one character is attacked by another character. (This is the real-life definition of bashing.) The second is basically character assassination (that is, their characterization itself is under attack) (This is the literary definition of bashing often used by fanfics). While both can appear at the same time, they're still different things.

According to the first definition.

1a. Yes, Haruhi, as a character, was technically bashing (in other words, attacking) Mikuru; Durandall wasn't. There's a difference, unless you think Durandall actually wants canon Haruhi to be the same as her New Game+ version.

1b. Furthermore, Haruhi "bashing" Mikuru is canon, and also often played as comedy.

1c. We were talking about whether Koizumi's treatment counted as character bashing by the author, as opposed to "character bashing" by other characters. The former is frowned upon, the latter happens in practically every story with conflict between two or more characters.

2. And Haruhi can be summed up as "petty goddess". Again, context. We're dealing with a comedy one-shot, so there's no need for too much characterization; what's important is whether the current characterization is appropriate for the setting and if it's canonical. If the characterization in a fanfic is both negative and non-canonical, then it's character bashing.

3. What I said doesn't appear word-for-word because it's a summation. If you actually read the entire article as an article instead of trying to pedantically looking for scraps, you'll see it too.

he, i did never classified it as a bashfic (tough what he did to most characters could count towards it, i suppose), what i said was that it contained bashing, and outright Nagato-in-name-only and that was the whole point of the convo with Shiakou, me saying that gratuitous attacks/hummiliations are considered bashin and him sayint to not take it too seriously (Shiakou feel freee to correct this point) and IIRC we have both stated that we liked his works.
but i do agree with you that his Kyon dialogue feels right and that has spoiled me about how i feel Kyoun should be narrated or narrate things in fanfiction

I think I see the problem. You use "bashing" as it's defined in the english Wikipedia article. Unfortunately, that definition is for real life events (such as a mugger "bashing" a victim). It has little to do with character bashing in literature, which is what most fanfic writers/readers are familiar with. So when you say that the fic bashed Koizumi, I think you meant "Koizumi got physically attacked" whereas most of us misunderstood it to mean "Koizumi became a target of vehement and unreasonable hatred from the author".

There is a Spanish Wikipedia article/definition of character bashing which is closer to the literary meaning and mentions how it pertains to anime and manga, but the English definition only has character bashing as a blurb in the last line, listing it as a criticism of a character or work (which is, frankly, kinda missing the point). They're not the same thing dude.

uhu, you call me pedantic and then you act stupid, i mean, i even give you the freaking quote

Bashing is a harsh, gratuitous, prejudicial attack on a person, group or subject.

meaning both Physical and, read really well here boyo, metaphorical
1.- suddenly writers who (within their rights to do so) change the characterization or up them up to 11 are not responsable for what they write about their characters? that is simply idiotic.
2.- i simply must laugh at you, upping up to 11 negative traits (the petty godess thing) IS bashing, or do you consider HP fics where Ron is a Jealous Asshole a faithful characterization? (they are not, because there were only 2 moments when he get that assholish, the 4th book and the horcrux hunt).
OTOH if they up to 11th positive qualities is wanking.

3.- no dude, that is not a summation, that is your own freaking take on what is saying there, i did read the article, firstly to check whare you got that definition from and then to check the full article, and what did i found? that you were full of it.

4.- please, i did say public humilliation, remember when i mentioned the public crossdressing, etc., etc., etc.?
bashing is bashing and comprenhend english, character bashing IS Bashing a Character, by the way the spanish article shays shit about what it is beyond mentioning some of the reasons for it and it refers to from a slight disdain to full blown hatred against a character including:
verbal/text cursing
degrading images of them ( and i include the written word in there)
or pointless death fics.
so unless you can't even comprenhend basic language to know from where the terms come from, i'm going to explain it to you:
Bashing and Character Bashing (as for some weird reason you think that Bashing a character is somehow different than bashing anything else) is a harsh, gratuitous, prejudicial attack on a person, group or subject (fictional characters are included in this, see the person or subject parts of that definitions, see, characters are included).
that can come, from slight things (making them useless, replacing their roles in a story because there are so much better candidates than them, etc.) to full blown hatred (deathfics for example)

Edit: fuck it, i am tired, i expressed my opinion, got called pedantic, Hermione Granger and responded, meh, this shit ain't worth me really being bothered by it.

 

[Shiakou]

1. Which, as I pointed out, also applied to how Durandall wrote everyone in New Game+. You can't have it both ways, man. Either that definition applies fully and Durandall is guilty of character bashing all of them or or it doesn't and Durandall bashed no one.

2. EXACTLY! Which is why I said that logical consistency means that Haruhi was bashed (character exaggerated "up to 11" as it were), and so was Yuki (entirely replaced) and Kyon (demoted to extra). Also, I'm glad to make you laugh but whatever happened to that whole empathy biz?

3. Then, no offense, but I think your reading comprehension needs a bit of practice. I mean, I looked up your definition and it has barely anything to do with fanfics.

4. Dude, calm down. If you really want to go by that definition, fine. It's not like I can do anything to stop you from over here. All I'm pointing out is that you're not using the definition consistently, and that if you were, you'd have to make "bashing" (as you define it) a staple of practically every comedy and parody ever written, because they all use it or something like it.

Also, the Hermione thing wasn't supposed to be an insult; I mean she's hot. Or Emma Watson's hot. Not to say you're hot, because that would be gay, which I'm not, not that there's anything wrong with that, but don't you think you're taking the definition of "bashing" a little too literally?

 

[BloodRevan]

Kyon: Big Damn Hero 57 is up.

 

[datenchi]

new chap

<a href='http://durandall.com/brian/fanfic/kbdh/kbdh59/' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://durandall.com/brian/fanfic/kbdh/kbdh59/</a>

 

[the DragonBard]

new chap

<a href='http://durandall.com/brian/fanfic/kbdh/kbdh59/' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://durandall.com/brian/fanfic/kbdh/kbdh59/</a>

Must have just come up because I checked it not that long ago.

 

[zeebee1]

He's really grown as a writer since he hasn't killed off Koizumi yet.

 

[Shiakou]

Koizumi lived in Blunt Force Trauma and was a good guy. . .

 

[zeebee1]

Yes, but that's before he decided that Koizumi wasn't needed for the plot and had no redeeming qualities.

 

[BloodRevan]

Chapter 60 is up.

 

[PCHeintz72]

KBDH is one of the few Brian Randall stories I've not read... Well... that and a few of the stories that implied Kyon/Haruhi as a matchup.

I've liked most of his other stuff though, POE (wish he would redo arc 2 already), DitR (wish he would get to the last chapter already), UW, TCoSH, EiC, F&T, RI, etc...

I've been wondering though if I could know four things, without asking for the entire plot..
1. How much is tv-tropes meshed in? I dislike going to the site for anything, so a story dependent upon it is of no interest, and one of the primary reasons I've avoided the story so far due to the summary starting with it.
2. Does one need to know anything about Higurashi to understand the story? Ask as never seen it.
3. Whom, if anyone, is Kyon matched up with in it? I dislike on general principle a couple matchups involving him... in fact there are only a couple I approve of him matched with.
4. Is Kyon the main narrator, or told from his view? I have an odd take on the series in that to me if it is not from his view it is not worth reading (an exception was one where he was killed, and a couple crossovers).