Nasuverse Fate/Gathering Night

[GenocideHeart]

Just so you know, all intense emotions are linked with red in Magic terms. Red is by default the color of emotions and passion - hope, desire, unwavering determination, pursuit of victory in battle, willingness to fight anyone who'd level a challenge at you.

Excalibur, ironically enough, is red to the core in that sense, because the color of strong passions and emotions is pretty much red. And yes, that includes hopes and dreams. And what would be more red than the combined hopes and dreams of all humanity?

It's more a matter of intensity, to be fair. There are some emotions (greed and ambition, determination, love, arrogance, among others) that also represent other colors, but when those emotions become especially intense, then they become red.

For instance greed generally represents black (greed and ambition, desire for power and wealth), but THE quintessential representation of greed, the dragon, is almost always red. There's a good reason for that - it's because of the intensity. Similarly, there's a world of difference between the desire of one person and the desire of everyone in a race.

White is more accurately the color of soothing of wounds, mending of broken bodies and souls (Resurrection, remember?), relentless pursuit of justice, belief in divine will and deliverance of punishment, divine or otherwise, on the wicked... but it's not necessarily a purely good thing. White is also the color of Knight Templar types and people whose idea of justice is so absolute it veers into Mercykiller territory. In fact, Vhailor from Planescape Torment would be pure white. He's inflexible justice, with no compromise - the purest manifestation of white.

Avalon, on the other hand, is white, all right. It's basically the Otherworldly Journey spell, designed to remove the user from harm's way and then return them to the world.

Saber herself shows signs of being red. She states many times that she cannot refuse a challenge (and the inability to back away from a fight is a predominantly red trait), is extremely proud to the point of risking spilling into arrogance at times, and can be hot-tempered. She's closer to a red knight than a purely white one.

I'd say she's Boros (ie, red/white), at the very least. In fact, she reminds me of Razia, the Boros guildmaster.

 

[Watashiwa]

Hope is typically associated with white though. Every color is associated with some feelings and red has the passionate ones. Hope isn't (typically) a passionate emotion, its subtle and pervasive. Hope tempers other feelings.

General rule of thumb for emotions and colors:

White=positive emotions

Black=negative emotions

Red=passionate emotions

Blue=logic

Green=other (learning experiences? Seriously, green is so incredibly underdeveloped...)


Saber's reasons for her being unable to refuse a challenge is what makes her white. It's all about honor. She had to lead her country by example, which meant always acting the brave and honorable knight. (Ironically this is why her England fell apart when Guenivere's relationship with Lancelot came out). Now, if Saber went out of her way to MAKE those challenges, she'd be red because she'd be doing it for personal entertainment.

 

[shout27]

Hmm, then what color would you rate Caliburn as? You've researched both stories more than I have after all. Though everywhere I've just checked has Caliburn noted as being the Sword of Promised Victory, and everything I've just read has not deviated me from the opinion that it's a mono-white weapon. . . if not for it's powers and requirements to be wielded, then for it's (for lack of a better word) 'reputation' as being a sword that designates authority to it's rightful wielder(s).

Besides, I've never said that I don't believe Excalibur had powers that made it an arguably better weapon in a straight fight than Caliburn, I just can't see Nasuverse Excalibur as a purely white mana weapon. There is just something about how it was used and that whole Saber Alter path, that makes me think it's not a pure white weapon for some reason.

 

[shioran toushin]

Excalibur: Red/White, as c'mon it's created by the whishes of humanity and powered by it to grant victory.

Avalon: Pure White or White/blue.

what color would Kiritsugu have?

Caliburn: Golden Sword of the Victorious (?????????(?????), also translated as Golden Sword of Assured Victory
It is not as strong of a sword as Excalibur, as the swords of kings are often lowered to the role of fancy decorations due to being symbols of authority. The cost of being a dazzling sword is that it's grade as a weapon is inferior to Excalibur. It was broken in a battle in which the rules of chivalry had been broken by Arthur, and she later received the new holy sword of the Lady of the Lake. Despite that, she has a stronger attachment to Caliburn.
Merlin claimed that she would "no longer be human" after taking hold of it, as a king is someone who kills everyone to protect everyone. Once she pulled it from the stone, the area filled with light, making her something not human and stopped her physical aging. Many knights thought it to be ominous while most praised their master's immortality as divine. After the sword was destroyed, Avalon later granted the same properties. Though it is a weapon forever lost that will never exist again, Emiya Shirou, upon seeing Saber's memories in his dreams, becomes able to project it during the Fate route.

Excalibur: Sword of Promised Victory (?????????????????), ?) is the strongest and most majestic holy sword that symbolizes King Arthur. It is her greatest and most powerful Noble Phantasm, which is a divine construction, the pinnacle of holy swords, forged by the planet as the crystallization of the wishes of mankind stored and tempered within the planet. It is the crystallization of the prayer named "glory" and everything etched in the hearts of those who are scattered at the sword's radiance; the nostalgic, sorrowful, and exalted dream of those who were placed on the bloody hell called a battlefield, of all warriors past, present, and future fully exposed to the fear of death and despair, and whom still cling to a desire: "to be exalted." It is one of the ultimate god-forged weapons, a Last Phantasm, which was guarded by extensions of the planet, Fairies, before briefly being passed on to Arturia by the Lady of the Lake and later returned to the lake before her death. It replaced the destroyed Caliburn, and its sheath, Avalon, provided partial immortality for its wielder. She eventually lost Avalon, and replaced it with Invisible Air, which she uses during the Holy Grail Wars to hide the sword and her identity.

 

[GenocideHeart]

Hope is typically associated with white though. Every color is associated with some feelings and red has the passionate ones. Hope isn't (typically) a passionate emotion, its subtle and pervasive. Hope tempers other feelings.

General rule of thumb for emotions and colors:

White=positive emotions

Black=negative emotions

Red=passionate emotions

Blue=logic

Green=other (learning experiences? Seriously, green is so incredibly underdeveloped...)


Saber's reasons for her being unable to refuse a challenge is what makes her white. It's all about honor. She had to lead her country by example, which meant always acting the brave and honorable knight. (Ironically this is why her England fell apart when Guenivere's relationship with Lancelot came out). Now, if Saber went out of her way to MAKE those challenges, she'd be red because she'd be doing it for personal entertainment.

That's how it worked until recently. With time Spiral, Wizards mixed up the color pie - ALL strong emotions are now at least partially associated with red, and the stronger an emotion is, the more red it is. It's not about which emotion anymore, but about its intensity.

Someone like Shirou would be white/red himself, because his desire for justice is so strong as to be borderline unreasonable and cause him to be reckless. Similarly, something like Excalibur which is the concentrated hopes and dreams of an entire race would have a heavy red component to it simply because of how intense the emotion associated with it is.

White has since been more strongly associated with preservation of order and justice, sometimes to unreasonable levels.

As a rule:

White: Justice, order, protection
Blue: Discipline and control
Black: Ambition and decay, also part of the cycle of life
Red: Strong emotions and freedom of choice
Green: Nature over artifice, savagery and the cycle of life

Saber leans towards multicolor regardless. Either she's red/white because she never backs down from a challenge but won't needlessly seek one (the Boros guard, not attack - they will level lethal force at you should you challenge them, but won't actively attempt to seek out a fight and don't particularly enjoy a battle without a purpose), or she's blue/green/white because she's Bant.

But she's not pure White. Her emotions tend to get the better of her, and she tends to rationalize things too much - traits of red and blue respectively.

That said, it should be noted that most artifacts are strictly colorless. Even White mana batteries, which, well, are pure white mana batteries, are colorless. Esper's colored artifacts are an aberration caused by the shattering of Alara, not the norm.

 

[Shadowseraph]

So any noble phantasm that has a physical form would probably translate as a colorless artifact with a colored activation cost?

 

[Archanon]

Hope is typically associated with white though.? Every color is associated with some feelings and red has the passionate ones.? Hope isn't (typically) a passionate emotion, its subtle and pervasive. Hope tempers other feelings.

General rule of thumb for emotions and colors:

White=positive emotions

Black=negative emotions

Red=passionate emotions

Blue=logic

Green=other (learning experiences? Seriously, green is so incredibly underdeveloped...)


Saber's reasons for her being unable to refuse a challenge is what makes her white. It's all about honor.? She had to lead her country by example, which meant always acting the brave and honorable knight. (Ironically this is why her England fell apart when Guenivere's relationship with Lancelot came out).? Now, if Saber went out of her way to MAKE those challenges, she'd be red because she'd be doing it for personal entertainment.

That's how it worked until recently. With time Spiral, Wizards mixed up the color pie - ALL strong emotions are now at least partially associated with red, and the stronger an emotion is, the more red it is. It's not about which emotion anymore, but about its intensity.

Someone like Shirou would be white/red himself, because his desire for justice is so strong as to be borderline unreasonable and cause him to be reckless. Similarly, something like Excalibur which is the concentrated hopes and dreams of an entire race would have a heavy red component to it simply because of how intense the emotion associated with it is.

White has since been more strongly associated with preservation of order and justice, sometimes to unreasonable levels.

As a rule:

White: Justice, order, protection
Blue: Discipline and control
Black: Ambition and decay, also part of the cycle of life
Red: Strong emotions and freedom of choice
Green: Nature over artifice, savagery and the cycle of life

Saber leans towards multicolor regardless. Either she's red/white because she never backs down from a challenge but won't needlessly seek one (the Boros guard, not attack - they will level lethal force at you should you challenge them, but won't actively attempt to seek out a fight and don't particularly enjoy a battle without a purpose), or she's blue/green/white because she's Bant.

But she's not pure White. Her emotions tend to get the better of her, and she tends to rationalize things too much - traits of red and blue respectively.

That said, it should be noted that most artifacts are strictly colorless. Even White mana batteries, which, well, are pure white mana batteries, are colorless. Esper's colored artifacts are an aberration caused by the shattering of Alara, not the norm.

Y'know, I didn't think I could actually hate Time Spiral any more than I already did. So much for that.


Under that definition, yes, Excalibur would be White/Red (well, artifact with W/R costs). Assigning emotion to the purvey of a single color seems pretty wonky to me, though, so I'm going to stick with the older associations, personally, and under them I'd still say Excalibur is mono-white.

Saber Alter aside, because that involved her being corrupted by All the Evils of Man. In terms of the game, Saber Alter and Black Excalibur would be entirely different cards from Saber and Excalibur.

 

[GenocideHeart]

As I said, it's not the emotion that matters, but how INTENSE it is. Hatred is still associated with black, but especially potent hatred is considered red, or at least red/black. The stronger an emotion is, the more red it is.

Hence why red/white. It's not that hope in itself is red, but hope as potent as the SUM TOTAL of the human race? That's potent enough to become red by sheer intensity.

Look at Ravnica. All guilds that are based on massive unbalances of emotion are part-red... they take the chief emotions of their associated color and magnify it a hundredfold.

 

[Archanon]

I did realize that. The thing is, I still really dislike it.

Essentially because you're never going to read a story about muted emotions. Any story that involves emotion is probably going to involve it running high, which would under the new definitions make it red. Which I dislike with a passion (oh, irony, that would be red, wouldn't it? )

 

[GenocideHeart]

I did realize that. The thing is, I still really dislike it.

Essentially because you're never going to read a story about muted emotions. Any story that involves emotion is probably going to involve it running high, which would under the new definitions make it red. Which I dislike with a passion (oh, irony, that would be red, wouldn't it?? )

To be fair, we're talking truly STRONG emotions. Just emotions running high isn't enough, they must truly be burning. Hate itself isn't gonna be enough, for example, it has to be RED HATE of the type that just thinking about it makes your blood boil and causes you to not stop until the object of your hatred has been, not just destroyed, but completely scrubbed clean from existence itself. Where someone with a single color would go for a simple kill, the person whose emotion runs high enough to be red would go for overkill of the highest order - and not care about collateral damage in the slightest, because their hatred overpowers everything else.

In hope's case, the kind of hope that would align itself with red is the kind that would not be snuffed out even if its bearer was stranded alone and without weapons in a valley filled with unspeakable abominations hungry for his very soul. It's one that will not die until the very last vestige of life has left its carrier's bones. And maybe not even afterwards. That's why I think an entire race's hope would qualify as that... you'd have to kill every last human on Earth to extinguish it. That makes it very potent.

Razia's fire sword in the Ravnica novels in particular is basically Excalibur's expy, as is said to burn because it's fueled by the hopes and wishes for justice and revenge against the wicked of every just and righteous man and woman in Ravnica. Given how people like Szadek and the Orzhov ghosts can't even go near it because it's physically painful just being close for them, it's very likely true.

TL; DR: I guess the most accurate definition is 'an emotion becomes red when it overpowers everything else the person is, be it common sense, filial piety, honor or what have you'. When an emotion is strong enough to impair judgment to a point, but the character can rein it in, it's a case of hybrid red color. Hatred tempered by self control is often billed as blue/black/red, for example...

 

[Watashiwa]

So... Saber ISN'T red then, because hope isn't her sole driving force? :huh:

In terms of creature types she's a Legendary Knight. That plants her firmly in white. Besides, red doesn't suit her at all. Nero on the other hand...

EDIT: The worst part about the new explanation about color types from Time Spiral is that it's counter-intuitive. Hope is associated with white. More hope is associated with white. All of the hope is... red. :huh.:

I do get what the point is though. Any time an emotion, or ideal or idea leads to obsession it's red, because red is the color of that kind of burning will.

 

[GenocideHeart]

So... Saber ISN'T red then, because hope isn't her sole driving force?áá :huh:

In terms of creature types she's a Legendary Knight.á That plants her firmly in white.

Saber isn't PURE red, but she should be part red nonetheless due to her general personality. Either that, or at most you can argue she's Bant, ie blue/green/white.

Also:

<a href='http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&output=standard&type=+' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/D...standard&type=+</a>[%22Legendary%22]+[%22Creature%22]&subtype=+[%22Knight%22] (copypaste, Gatherer links hate this board)

You were saying?

As you can see, just because someone is a Knight doesn't make them pure white, or even part white (there's plenty of knights in red and black, too - red moreso than black thanks to the various Askari from Mirage). In fact, closest to Saber in the legendary knight lot lot is Rafiq of the Many, the Bant champion from Alara. He's very much like Saber even personality wise.

 

[Watashiwa]

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Er...


I'm well aware that knights can be of just about the full spectrum. Every type has colors that are most associated with it, so I feel perfectly justified in saying that angels are white, though I know for a fact that there are red and black angels, and that dragons are red even though there are black dragons.


Color affinities aren't set because someone only suits one single color. Most people suit more than one color, but their general nature means that in game terms they only receive one color. Spectrum creatures are creatures that have multiple primary affinities. Saber is red to a lesser degree than white, so her affinity is with white. That's why it's an "affinity" and why mana of any color can pay the numbered mana cost.

 

[Archanon]

Alara is... weird, though. It's hard to use stuff from there as a parallel when it is so very different from any of the other planes.


I could see Saber as not necessarily being mono-white, but red is not what I'd choose as her second.

 

[GenocideHeart]

On the other hand, Bant's VALUES very much match Saber's. Honor and stature are paramount, acting dishonorably is disapproved, and one of Bant's cardinal rules is that one should never turn down a challenge.

More importantly, EXALTED. Bant's mechanics literally focuses all of Bant's support and will to win on a single champion to fight for them, making him or her fight alone... but with an enormous power boost due to all that faith, confidence and dare I say it?... hope, backing them.

Sounds pretty familiar, lol.

 

[GenocideHeart]

On a side note, the Shards of Alara fit very well with a number of characters in the Nasuverse.

Naya is the shard of wild nature, communion with the planet, sheer savagery and overwhelming, primal power - red, green, white. Berserker, pretty much. Fits him to a T.

Bant is the shard of chivalry and knightly values, and it has a rigid structure of castes where everyone is expected to do his job. Saber is a little too emotional to do well there, but for the most part fits.

Jund is the shard that has the most affinity for Servants. It's a world where the strong survives and the weak dies, simply put. Such a grand order of things fits Gilgamesh just fine - when has he EVER not been willing to emerge victorious over a mountain of corpses? It fits Lancer too, to an extent, as the few humans in Jund wish for nothing more than to prove their might, which is all Lancer wants - a glorious fight to the death.

Esper is a shard of living metal, but it also represents deceit and manipulation - Caster all the way.

Grixis is the one that doesn't precisely fit anyone. True Assassin, possibly, as the only legendary assassin in Alara, Thraximundar, is Grixis aligned. But he's a zombie too. Saber Alter might also fit, as she's a product of corruption, and all energy in Grixis is corrupted - white and green are completely absent after all.

 

[Watashiwa]

Okay, I know jack and shit about anything that's been happening in MtG since Champions of Kamigawa (because FUCK YOU RAVNICA) and after five minutes of research I have to say that Alara is pretty freaking dumb. -_- Not the idea, because that's pretty neat, but the way Wizards ran with it. (Haha, that also fits the Nasuverse to a T)

Out of curiosity, are you dead set on Saber being red or are you pointing out that it could be appropriate?

 

[GenocideHeart]

Okay, I know jack and shit about anything that's been happening in MtG since Champions of Kamigawa (because FUCK YOU RAVNICA) and after five minutes of research I have to say that Alara is pretty freaking dumb.á -_-

Out of curiosity, are you dead set on Saber being red or are you pointing out that it could be appropriate?

I'm pointing out that Saber being partly red is appropriate. It's my opinion and I'm making a case for it, but it does fit. You're free to disregard it though.

As for Alara, you have to understand that Nicol Bolas broke the plane to pieces and intentionally severed contact between each of the five Shards and two of the five colors. That's why there's such a massive unbalance.

By the way, Wizards has steadily been moving Knights to black and red, while making White the color of flying critters by definition... XD Ever wondered why there's been so many fliers in white lately? Blue now focuses on the sea (merfolk everywhere) and comes into play shenanigans.

EDIT: Also, NOTHING can be as dumb as Lorwyn. God, that set left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Archanon]

I don't know what the Lorwyn flavor is, but I'm quite fond of my Kithkin deck. I might find the flavor ridiculous if I knew about it, of course, but it's still a fun deck.



On-topic: The fact that Alara is so screwed up means that it really can't be applied to any of the other worlds in M:tG, and it's not the best stick by which to measure other series in relation to M:tG in general. It's a very rare case.

 

[GenocideHeart]

I don't know what the Lorwyn flavor is, but I'm quite fond of my Kithkin deck. I might find the flavor ridiculous if I knew about it, of course, but it's still a fun deck.



On-topic: The fact that Alara is so screwed up means that it really can't be applied to any of the other worlds in M:tG, and it's not the best stick by which to measure other series in relation to M:tG in general. It's a very rare case.

It actually has precedent. The Planeshift block with its multicolor mechanics had the same partition of cards. It's where the original Primeval Dragons are from, remember? Invasion block? Darigaaz, Dromar, Rith, Treva, Crosis?

 

[Archanon]

Eh, fair enough.

 

[GenocideHeart]

That said, yeah, to answer an earlier questions, Noble Phantasms would likely be colorless artifacts with a colored activation cost.

 

[Cherry_lover]

Sakura=blue/black

I dunno, really.

Sakura's magic is rather "black", but her personality does not fit that at all, and nor does it fit blue. And, I don't see how Rin's is red or Shirou's white based on what they do.

 

[GenocideHeart]

Shirou actually fits red/white pretty well. He's obsessed with justice, which is a pretty White thing... and he's borderline suicidally reckless about it, too, often letting his emotions get the better of him, which is heavily Red.

The Red in Shirou is pretty obvious.

Archer, on the other hand, fits a mix of blue, black and just the tiniest bit of white. He IS trying to do the right thing in his eyes (white), but he's absolutely ruthless about it (blue/black both fit), and he tends to be coldly logical and efficient about things (blue), in stark contrast with Shirou's impulsiveness.

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

Shirou actually fits red/white pretty well. He's obsessed with justice, which is a pretty White thing... and he's borderline suicidally reckless about it, too, often letting his emotions get the better of him, which is heavily Red.

The Red in Shirou is pretty obvious.

Archer, on the other hand, fits a mix of blue, black and just the tiniest bit of white. He IS trying to do the right thing in his eyes (white), but he's absolutely ruthless about it (blue), and he tends to be coldly logical and efficient about things (blue), in stark contrast with Shirou's impulsiveness.

I dunno. EMIYA admits his plan has a low chance of success and that he is more or less killing Shirou to vent his frustrations. He's being ruthless and efficient in pursuit of a very emotional and self destructive goal.

I think there's still some Red in EMIYA.