Nasuverse Fate/Gathering Night

[Ray]

Wouldn't a desire that someone KNOWS is selfish also have shades of black?

Not really. Red can be selfish too. I think the difference here is that HF!Shirou isn't intentionally hurting anybody in that while he's perfectly willing to let everyone else die if it means saving Sakura, he isn't actually wishing those innocent people ill or killing them himself.

I think the difference here is that Red is selfish out of obsession, while Black is selfish out of cruelty and envy.

 

[GenocideHeart]

Wouldn't a desire that someone KNOWS is selfish also have shades of black?

Not really. Red can be selfish too. I think the difference here is that HF!Shirou isn't intentionally hurting anybody in that while he's perfectly willing to let everyone else die if it means saving Sakura, he isn't actually wishing those innocent people ill or killing them himself.

I think the difference here is that Red is selfish out of obsession, while Black is selfish out of cruelty and envy.

Black is actually selfish out of lust for power and ego, most of the time. A Black mage will look primarily out for himself and his needs and desires, placing them above anyone else's. However, you shouldn't make the mistake of thinking Black will wish ill upon others by default. They simply consider everyone else expendable, but usually won't needlessly kill anyone unless that REALLY is the simplest way to solve a problem, unless they are sociopaths, but every color has THOSE, unfortunately.

Take Toshiro Umezawa from Kamigawa. He was black mainly because he was self-serving and only valued his oath with Hidetsugu and Marrow-Gnawer (whom, by the way, he actually considered friends even though Marrow-Gnawer was a brutal nezumi warlord and Hidetsugu was a complete monster even by ogre standards - Hidetsugu was red, by the way, not black). He'd still go to the ends of Earth and kill absolutely anyone to help his friends, and this had less to do with the blood bond that exists between them and more with that friendship thing. The same held true for Michiko Konda whom he got involved with later on. Everyone else, though? He'd trip them in a heartbeat if he and that someone were chased by an angry Kami and his survival depended on that. No malice in that, just 'better you than me' at its finest.

In a sense, Black emphasizes 'survival of the fittest'. It's just that Black guys have a very arbitrary definition of who is 'fittest' and who isn't, with the former being them and their friends, and the latter being everyfreakingbody else. They won't go out of their way to kill everyone else, but if they get in the way, they won't lose too terribly much sleep over it and chalk it up to a necessary step.

Black CAN be also very evil, yes, but not always. It's more about pure self-serving than anything else, it's just that most self-serving people are also major dickfaces. But there's exceptions, like the aforementioned Toshiro Umezawa, Maralen of the Mornsong (who actually turned out decent in spite of being a Lorwyn elf - a bit arrogant, but also wise enough to know antagonizing everyone is a terrible idea), and Sorin Markov who in spite of being a blood drinking monster, actually tries to help people unless it'd be really harmful to himself.

(On the other hand, Nissa Revane is a complete bitch, but she's an Elf, so that's par for the course for her. Do note that if she had done what Sorin told her to, the Eldrazi would have been banished permanently, instead she decided she knew better than some filthy vampire, betrayed him, and didn't even have the decency to apologize to Sorin when she realized she'd fucked up. Sorin never really forgave her for that blunder - rightfully so, I might add. It's HER fault that Zendikar became as messy as it is and that the Eldrazi eventually returned. Ugin had even warned Sorin she'd be trouble, but Sorin gave her a chance, and she squandered it)

 

[shioran toushin]

form that definition HF!Shirou has a black cost, because in the end he is selfish in his desire to make sakura happy/save sakura, but while he considers himself expendable i do not remember any instance in wich he tought that others were. even then in his fight with Alt!Saber he rejects the part that wanted to save her, choosing the more cold option to eliminate her to prevent further conflict and saving Sakura sooner.

 

[GenocideHeart]

form that definition HF!Shirou has a black cost, because in the end he is selfish in his desire to make sakura happy/save sakura, but while he considers himself expendable i do not remember any instance in wich he tought that others were. even then in his fight with Alt!Saber he rejects the part that wanted to save her, choosing the more cold option to eliminate her to prevent further conflict and saving Sakura sooner.

Hmm, then that doesn't fit with Black. Black is defined by selfishness - the one thing ALL Black mages have in common is looking out for number one - that being themselves. They don't consider themselves expendable.

That is, indeed, more Red than Black - Red is more likely to be self-sacrificing like that in the name of friendship. They are the only ones who will go to such an extreme solely for a single person's sake - while White would also have a measure of self sacrifice, they wouldn't dispassionately crush other people for a single person's sake, White is about the Greater Good, in the end.

Barrin's suicidal fit of paternal vengeance during which he expended his life to annihilate Tolaria (along with a huge chunk of the Phyrexian army) in his daughter's memory comes to mind. When Red decides something needs serious purging, they don't half-ass it, and if someone gets burned in the process, well, too bad, so sad.

EDIT:

This is what I am talking about. Don't fuck with an old man bent on RED HOT VENGEANCE.

 

[shioran toushin]

all shirous have red bar MoS who imho is more White-blue.

 

[Cherry_lover]

Mike it's fucking stated both in the VN and by Nasu that by FOCUSING in saving ONE PERSON in this case Sakura, HF Shirou betryed his save EVERYONE ideal while MoS did that too by killing her to save many.

Then how, exactly, was Shirou supposed to not "betray his ideals", if both options lead to him doing so...?

and he was willing to say :fuck the world i want my sakura, it was a side effect of him saving Sakura what allowed them to save the world.
HF-Shirou: primary red to mono red
MoS-Shirou: Primary white-blue

I wouldn't argue with those assessments at all, actually, I'm just arguing with the way he claimed that Shirou was willing to "doom the world" for Sakura when he never gives any indication of such, and that he didn't care less about anyone else despite him spending most of HF running around Fuyuki trying to save people from the shadow.

The difference is that HF Shirou listens to his heart, which just wants to save people and make them happy (with particular focus on those he cares for) so, yeah, he's red. MoS Shirou ignores that and goes with the "safe" option, so white to white/blue would fit him.

Red-Black colour then? because HF!Shirou was ruled mostly by his passion/emotion

No, because HF Shirou isn't selfish. If he were, then why would he commit suicide to save Sakura and destroy Angra Mainyu...?

Wanting to save the one you love is not selfish, or at least not unusually so. Most people would do the same in that situation (even if they may claim otherwise).

Black is actually selfish out of lust for power and ego, most of the time. A Black mage will look primarily out for himself and his needs and desires, placing them above anyone else's. However, you shouldn't make the mistake of thinking Black will wish ill upon others by default. They simply consider everyone else expendable, but usually won't needlessly kill anyone unless that REALLY is the simplest way to solve a problem, unless they are sociopaths, but every color has THOSE, unfortunately.

Which does not fit Shirou at all. Even when trying to protect Sakura, he was not at all willing to kill innocents, or even to just stand by and watch them die without doing anything.

all shirous have red bar MoS who imho is more White-blue.

Yeah, most versions of Shirou are some mixture of red and white. HF forced Shirou to make the choice between the two to a large extent, and MoS went for the "white" option whereas HF Shirou went for the "red" option.

 

[GenocideHeart]

Which does not fit Shirou at all. Even when trying to protect Sakura, he was not at all willing to kill innocents, or even to just stand by and watch them die without doing anything.

And yet he was willing to take a choice (saving Sakura rather than killing her) which he was completely aware would endanger a ton of people. AND he knew that as much as he tried, saving everyone was unlikely at best UNLESS he killed her and got things over with.

He chose Sakura's wellbeing over everyone else's safety. HIS own personal safety being disregarded is what makes him Red. His disregard for everyone ELSE's, however, ends up being Black.

And no, the fact he was not willing to kill or even let die people doesn't matter anymore after that. Innocents being in danger is the direct result of the very first decision he took - to save Sakura. He knew that'd be the case, yet did it anyway. Being aware of dire consequences to *others*, and disregarding them to do what you want - this is what sets Black apart from Red, ultimately. Red is more the 'I don't care if I die so long as you live, I will hold the line while you escape' type. Black is the 'This could cause millions of people to die. I'm still doing it because it's what I want, and that matters more to me.' type.

 

[Cherry_lover]

And yet he was willing to take a choice (saving Sakura rather than killing her) which he was completely aware would endanger a ton of people. AND he knew that as much as he tried, saving everyone was unlikely at best UNLESS he killed her and got things over with.

He was aware that it might not be possible to save everyone, yes, but he wanted to try. That is an emotional decision, not a selfish one. Shirou didn't want to kill any innocent person, let alone one who he cared so much for.

There is nothing at all selfish about wanting to protect an innocent girl who has done nothing wrong. To claim that it is is just ludicrous.

He chose Sakura's wellbeing over everyone else's safety. HIS own personal safety being disregarded is what makes him Red. His disregard for everyone ELSE's, however, ends up being Black.

And what about Sakura's "personal safety"? Does she not count as a person?

Refusing to kill the person who you love because they might kill others through no fault of their own is not an unusually selfish act. If you're calling that selfish, then 99% of the population is "selfish". After all, I don't see you selling everything you own and using the money to feed poor people in Africa, so you're probably responsible for the deaths of hundreds of people by your own logic....

And no, the fact he was not willing to kill or even let die people doesn't matter anymore after that. Innocents being in danger is the direct result of the very first decision he took - to save Sakura. He knew that'd be the case, yet did it anyway. Being aware of dire consequences to *others*, and disregarding them to do what you want - this is what sets Black apart from Red, ultimately. Red is more the 'I don't care if I die so long as you live, I will hold the line while you escape' type. Black is the 'This could cause millions of people to die. I'm still doing it because it's what I want, and that matters more to me.' type.

But, killing an innocent girl in cold blood is not the right thing to do, ever. Further, killing Sakura has dire consequences to her, so by the same logic MoS Shirou is black....

 

[shioran toushin]

no, he is white.
Black: i do exactly what i want.
White: I follow the letter of the law with Zealotry
Red: i'm ruled by passion (even omnicidal passion)

and it is selfish to try to protect one person at the cost of the others incluiding yourself (it's just that we consider it a virtue instead of something horrific in most circumstances).
and humanity as a whole and as individuals... we are fucking selfish, but not everybody are on the level (or the circumstances) to earn a black color or cost.
but really mike do you only skim trough these posts?

He chose Sakura's wellbeing over everyone else's safety. HIS own personal safety being disregarded is what makes him Red. His disregard for everyone ELSE's, however, ends up being Black.

And what about Sakura's "personal safety"? Does she not count as a person?

He choose Sakura's personal wellbeing OVER EVERYTHING ELSE incouiding HIMSELF.

and for the last time MoS Shirou is white because he Zealotry follows the letter of the law, in that case that, in the first place it was the obligation of her family to deal however they decided with her (talking about Rin, becuse MoS Shirou explicitely choose to follow his not-human side in the conversation with Ilya and allowed Rin to terminate her).

 

[Cynical Kyle]

Just give up GH, you're arguing against truly dedicated fanboy of Sakura. He'll only twist what is pointed out to fit his own rendition of events and later tries to rationalize it to others.

 

[Cherry_lover]

and it is selfish to try to protect one person at the cost of the others incluiding yourself (it's just that we consider it a virtue instead of something horrific in most circumstances).
and humanity as a whole and as individuals... we are fucking selfish, but not everybody are on the level (or the circumstances) to earn a black color or cost.
but really mike do you only skim trough these posts?

Yes, and Shirou is most certainly not unusually selfish in HF. Saving the person you love from an unjust death at the risk (and that's all it is, a risk) of others dying as a result is something that the majority of people would probably do. And, in so far as it's not, it comes from him thinking with his heart not from him being selfish.

and for the last time MoS Shirou is white because he Zealotry follows the letter of the law, in that case that, in the first place it was the obligation of her family to deal however they decided with her (talking about Rin, becuse MoS Shirou explicitely choose to follow his not-human side in the conversation with Ilya and allowed Rin to terminate her).

I know that MoS Shirou is white, I was just being facetious because of the stupidity of his argument.

 

[GenocideHeart]

Whether the desire to protect someone over everyone else is selfish or not is directly proportional to how much danger you put them in. If someone may get hurt but not fatally, you can get away with it, but if you KNOW that a LOT of people, many of them just as innocent and undeserving of death as Sakura if not more, are at a very concrete, unacceptably high risk of dying in particularly horrible and gruesome ways (just look at how the people corrupted Sakura actually DOES kill die...), then at that point you are consciously giving their combined lives LESS VALUE than the single one life you want to save.

That is... yes... selfish. There's no forgiving such a thing even if you make excuses for it. You cannot excuse such a calculation as passion. You're giving the lives of people (and do note we're not talking just strangers, Shirou also endangers his friends who happen to be around) arbitrary values based on YOUR preference, and stacking them up. That isn't what Red does. It's what BLACK does.

 

[Cherry_lover]

Rubbish. It is never wrong to spare an innocent person, and nor is it selfish. It's simply Shirou doing the right thing and giving Sakura a chance, rather than arbitrarily designating her as an "acceptable sacrifice".

Also, whilst the Shadow did indeed end up killing people (it was actually mostly quick and painless, I believe, with a few early exceptions), it was not in the way Shirou expected, and he had no way of predicting it. He quite reasonably believed that he could prevent Sakura going insane, and kill her before she hurt anyone if she did. You can argue that was perhaps over-optimisitic, but it wasn't in any way "selfish". Later on he was simply unable to kill her when he attempted to do so the second time around. Again, that wasn't selfish, it was just him following his heart.

None of that demonstrates selfishness. Shirou is an extremely unselfish person, and to claim otherwise just because he doesn't hold to your arbitrary definition of "morality" is utterly moronic.

You are assuming a utalitarian moral framework here and trying to hold everyone else to it, when in fact not everyone follows such a morality. HF Shirou certainly does not. To claim that he's being overly selfish just because he doesn't see people as mere statistics says a hell of a lot more about your alignment than it does about his.

 

[Archanon]

Well, damn. Up until now Cherry was actually being reasonable; now we're not going to get a word of sense out of him for days until he gets out of defensive mode.

 

[GenocideHeart]

Rubbish. It is never wrong to spare an innocent person, and nor is it selfish. It's simply Shirou doing the right thing and giving Sakura a chance, rather than arbitrarily designating her as an "acceptable sacrifice".

Also, whilst the Shadow did indeed end up killing people (it was actually mostly quick and painless, I believe, with a few early exceptions), it was not in the way Shirou expected, and he had no way of predicting it. He quite reasonably believed that he could prevent Sakura going insane, and kill her before she hurt anyone if she did. You can argue that was perhaps over-optimisitic, but it wasn't in any way "selfish". Later on he was simply unable to kill her when he attempted to do so the second time around. Again, that wasn't selfish, it was just him following his heart.

None of that demonstrates selfishness. Shirou is an extremely unselfish person, and to claim otherwise just because he doesn't hold to your arbitrary definition of "morality" is utterly moronic.

You are assuming a utalitarian moral framework here and trying to hold everyone else to it, when in fact not everyone follows such a morality. HF Shirou certainly does not. To claim that he's being overly selfish just because he doesn't see people as mere statistics says a hell of a lot more about your alignment than it does about his.

What Shirou WANTED to do and what WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO in this case do not coincide. That places his choice squarely in the 'I did it because I wanted to do it' half of the field, not in the 'I did it because as painful as it was, it was also the right thing to do' half of the field.

Also, do I need to point out, again, that what Shirou did was gamble with a lot of lives for the sake of only one, and lose? In the end it doesn't matter of he thought he could stop her. It doesn't matter if he thought he could protect everyone. What those two things do is ADD COLORS, not *remove* one. The thing that matters is that he chose consciously to serve his own attachment to a single person and caused lives to be lost that way, fully aware that it could happen.

At most you can argue that his thoughts on it *add* some more colors to him, but the fundamental part is his choice to gamble with lives he ultimately had no right to endanger for the sake of someone he had feelings for. HF Shirou has Black in him, to at the very least a small extent. There's really no arguing that one.

To give you an idea of how that works, take Nissa Revane. Green-Black, she's a typical Elf who ultimately does care for the world. So where does the Black come from? From her actions during the Eldrazi crisis, that's where - when she arbitrarily decides - much like a certain Emiya - that she can take chances with everyone's life on Zendikar based on her personal beliefs, and ignores Sorin's warnings and instructions to not destroy the zendikon that imprisons the Eldrazi.

She thought that the Eldrazi would leave once freed, that they'd leave Zendikar alone. She thought she could bank everyone's lives on that, and that at most she could protect them from the Eldrazi with her powers.

She was wrong. The Eldrazi didn't leave and her power wasn't enough. She was warned of both, and didn't heed the warnings. The net result of that was the loss of nearly half of Zendikar, people, animals and all, thanks to the Eldrazi, her ally washing his hands of the plane in fury at her for not trusting him even after he spent centuries regularly maintaining the seal, and her having to chase Sorin across the multiverse and pray that she can find him and come back before there's nothing LEFT to save.

Shirou was only different from Nissa in that his blunder wasn't quite as large-scale, but you will notice they did the EXACT SAME THING, untimately. Nissa is still questing for a solution to her own Heaven's Feel, in a way - whereas Shirou only looks better because we know how it ultimately worked out for him. But besides that? Shirou and Nissa are the same. And both made the same mistake.

 

[Avider]

I didn't know that the Eldrazi had a form of a mostly innocent girl. That, in no way, makes a difference.


At best, you can make a case for quarantining Sakura. Killing her before she turns Shadow, however, is morally wrong.

Just like how you have no right endanger the life of *others, you also have no right to take the life of *others, moreso even.

*Given certain stipulations on innocence, consent, and whatnot.


It doesn't matter whether it's one or many, the same basic morality applies. If it was the Shadow, no problem. But it wasn't, that wasn't. Just the mere possibility that she could turn into the Shadow does not forfeit her right to life, nor does it make you right if you straight out murder her.

That kind of greater good justification can be used to rationalize any and all kinds of atrocities, making morality meaningless, since any and all acts can be moral.

 

[Cynical Kyle]

I didn't know that the Eldrazi had a form of a mostly innocent girl.? That, in no way, makes a difference.


At best, you can make a case for quarantining Sakura.? Killing her before she turns Shadow, however, is morally wrong.

Just like how you have no right endanger the life of *others, you also have no right to take the life of *others, moreso even.

*Given certain stipulations on innocence, consent, and whatnot.


It doesn't matter whether it's one or many, the same basic morality applies.? If it was the Shadow, no problem.? But it wasn't, that wasn't.? Just the mere possibility that she could turn into the Shadow does not forfeit her right to life, nor does it make you right if you straight out murder her.

That kind of greater good justification can be used to rationalize any and all kinds of atrocities, making morality meaningless, since any and all acts can be moral.

In our culture, certainly. But do keep in mind that Nasuverse magus culture is far more lenient on such matters, with the spiel about living with death & all that jazz. Even Shirou knew that one, plus there's the matter of his worldview being kinda far from any type of normal due that distortion of his.

Shirou is many things, but "sane" (at least going by modern definition) is not one of them.

 

[Cherry_lover]

I didn't know that the Eldrazi had a form of a mostly innocent girl.á That, in no way, makes a difference.


At best, you can make a case for quarantining Sakura.á Killing her before she turns Shadow, however, is morally wrong.

Just like how you have no right endanger the life of *others, you also have no right to take the life of *others, moreso even.

*Given certain stipulations on innocence, consent, and whatnot.


It doesn't matter whether it's one or many, the same basic morality applies.á If it was the Shadow, no problem.á But it wasn't, that wasn't.á Just the mere possibility that she could turn into the Shadow does not forfeit her right to life, nor does it make you right if you straight out murder her.

That kind of greater good justification can be used to rationalize any and all kinds of atrocities, making morality meaningless, since any and all acts can be moral.

In our culture, certainly. But do keep in mind that Nasuverse magus culture is far more lenient on such matters, with the spiel about living with death & all that jazz. Even Shirou knew that one, plus there's the matter of his worldview being kinda far from any type of normal due that distortion of his.

Shirou is many things, but "sane" (at least going by modern definition) is not one of them.

What Nasuverse Magus culture believes about such things is entirely irrelevant, because Shirou is not a magus. He was brought up by a guy who had never been a traditional magus and who taught him very little about their culture. He may apply magi rules to people who make the choice to be one, but Sakura doesn't have that choice.

Ultimately, it is a purely moral argument, and there is no indication that Shirou is being unusually selfish in being unwilling to kill Sakura. Indeed, everything he does strongly indicates otherwise.

And, as for what you said, GH, perhaps you could argue that he has some black in him, but that is surely true of everyone. It's certainly not strong enough for it to be one of his main colours, because the reason he saved Sakura was because he did what he felt was right.

 

[GenocideHeart]

Hitler also did what he felt was right. We all know how THAT ended, so don't use that argument, because what one 'feels' was right is a ridiculously subjective point of view, while Magic's color association works in absolutes, as you may have noticed.

It's why, for all that Nissa meant well and her actions felt right to her, she has black as one of her core colors - she did something that only Black personalities would deem acceptable or right (jeopardizing the whole world based on a personal choice), fully knowing the dangers of the situation but overestimating her ability to put a lid on it (which can also be construed as clueless arrogance and self-aggrandizing too - Black also isn't very good at even admitting it has limits, let alone recognizing them).

 

[Cherry_lover]

It's why, for all that Nissa meant well and her actions felt right to her, she has black as one of her core colors - she did something that only Black personalities would deem acceptable or right (jeopardizing the whole world based on a personal choice), fully knowing the dangers of the situation but overestimating her ability to put a lid on it (which can also be construed as clueless arrogance and self-aggrandizing too - Black also isn't very good at even admitting it has limits, let alone recognizing them).

But that's not what Shirou did. Sure, a few hundred people may have been in danger, but he never believed the entire world to be in danger until he was in a situation where saving Sakura was probably no harder than just killing her would have been. And, he wasn't even aware that a few hundred people were in danger for certain until quite late on. He only had vague hints that they might be.

Shirou distinctly did not know the "dangers of the situation" for most of HF. He only ever had partial information. Further, he didn't overestimate his ability to resolve the situation because he actually succeeded.

Also, if you're talking about "not admitting that you have limits", then all versions of Shirou are prone to that. He invariably takes the most difficult path to resolve the situation if the alternative will result in unnecessary deaths, and it nearly dooms the world several times.

And, I don't think that most people would see what HF Shirou did as wrong, and they certainly wouldn't have done anything different if they were in the same situation. Some do, certainly, but that is an indication of their personality type (which I suspect would be "white" in an MtG setting), not that of the people who do not.

 

[Avider]

Don't bother. GH pulled Hitler, I invoke Godwin.

GH automatically loses the argument, even if he wasn't already doing a horrible job.

 

[GenocideHeart]

And, I don't think that most people would see what HF Shirou did as wrong, and they certainly wouldn't have done anything different if they were in the same situation. Some do, certainly, but that is an indication of their personality type (which I suspect would be "white" in an MtG setting), not that of the people who do not.

If we are talking about what color-personalities characters would do in Shirou's place, it's easy actually.

White would just plain kill Sakura because one person's life, no matter how dear to one it is, just plain doesn't justify endangering anyone else, period. No exceptions. White follows the Greater Good, other options aren't considered unless they actually let you save EVERYONE. And pretty much the only one who manages that is Elspeth because her Planeswalker power is to flat out shield her allies from any and all harm as long as she protects them.

On the other hand, when Elspeth is faced with situations where she has to choose, if it's just one or two against a lot, she reluctantly sacrifices the minority.

Red would react without thinking - they wouldn't consider at all the consequences of their actions, and just follow their instinct. And before you try, no, that's NOT what Shirou did. A good example of Red reacting to someone they love being in danger is Kamahl going on a violent rampage and chopping through BOTH FRIEND AND FOE to get to his sister. Only AFTER rescuing her did he realize in his haste to save her he'd injured his own allies and accidentally killed his dwarven mentor.

Then there's Jaya Ballard, whose reaction to Jodah being in danger (at the time when she had a crush on him) was to collapse the whole castle on his attackers' head... completely disregarding that several of their friends were ALSO in said castle. One wound up dead, the rest injured, and Jodah was very cross at her for a while.

Red is reckless. It doesn't think things through, not even a little bit. HF Shirou overthinks the whole thing too much, that's not what Red would do.

Blue would do the same thing White does, simply because it's the logical thing to do. Morality doesn't come in the equation, Blue evaluates in numbers, and in this case it's one life vs. many lives. No contest.

Green would, first and foremost, consider all the consequences and act in light of them. It's the color most likely to try its damnedest to save everyone, because it's in Green's nature to be highly protective. However, Green would also ABHOR the nature of the Shadow, and would seriously consider killing Sakura on the spot solely based on that. It's an unnatural abomination and she's tainted by it - Green would view her death as mercy, because leaving her under the taint in its eyes would be worse.

Black... would do what Shirou did. Ultimately, place the wellbeing of those that matter to them above that of others. Sure, some of them will try keeping casualties down (Sorin Markov and Teysa Karlov come to mind), but given a choice, they will first and foremost watch out for themselves and the ones they hold dear - because they think in terms of what they value, not in terms of what's right. And if they value one person over anyone else, then, well... they end up like Liliana Vess, who upon having to choose between saving her village from a vampire attack and saving her brother, dumped the village to save said brother, made sure he was safe, and only AFTERWARDS decided to see if someone was still alive (they weren't).

Priorities. That's what black does - prioritize between what they care for and everything else.

In light of all the above, Shirou would have to be double or possibly triple color. Red and Black for sure - they complement each other and the personality traits that don't cancel each other actually end up almost exactly matching Shirou's in HF - and possibly a dash of Green since Green hates unnecessary loss of life - and the presence of red and black would certainly temper Green's disgust for the nature of Sakura's corruption. Certainly not pure White since if he WAS White he woudn't even have considered keeping Sakura alive in spite of the danger she posed, and not any shade of Blue because his actions in HF are extremely illogical, something which even partially Blue characters loathe.

 

[Cherry_lover]

But, again, you're totally mis-representing Shirou's decision here. It was not a choice between killing one and killing many, it was a choice between killing one and some vague possibility that some unspecified number of other people might die if he didn't.

His decision was entirely reasonable and, in my view, perfectly logical as well. Further, it is the decision which the majority of people would take, whether they are selfish or not, because it's the right thing to do. He quite simply does not have the right to decree that Sakura should not be allowed to live despite her doing absolutely nothing wrong. That would be evil, if anything is.

Also, you talk about Green "abhoring the shadow", but Shirou doesn't even know that Sakura is the shadow until very late in the story. Further, he is clearly aware that it has nothing to do with her.

So, whilst you haven't given a valid argument for him being black, you actually are making a decent argument for him being green, in all routes. He abhors any loss of life, and that applies just as well to Sakura as to everyone else. Further, whilst he dislikes the shadow, he has the resolve to attempt to save her from it rather than just killing her. If that's possible, I don't see why he should not take the choice.

Further, refusing to kill Sakura the second time around clearly is an emotional decision. He knows he "should" but he can't go through with it because his heart won't let him.

Finally, you're assuming total purity here. Just because someone doesn't act recklessly all the time that doesn't mean they're not predominently red. It just means that they are not an extreme of that. Shirou certainly acts recklessly, and a lot of the time, and the fact that he thinks about things and then goes with his heart does not make him in any way "selfish".

 

[shioran toushin]

Ok what the fucking Fuck, all of you (incluiding me) Shirou does not fucking kill freaking Saint Sakura in the MoS ending, he only doesn't stop Rin from doing the 'Magus'-approved course of action in terminating Sakura after Kirei had finished operating on Sakura an said that the worm in her heart can not be removed safely.

<a href='http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/archive/309.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>taking Sakura to the church</a>

and it was Saint Ilya who beat Shirou with the clue by four:
<a href='http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/archive/310.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Ilya's conversation with Shirou</a>

<a href='http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/archive/311.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>MoS or tiger dojo 30 AKA Superhero</a> Shirou only makes the offer to Rin to be the one to terminate Sakura's life.

and the one where he Chooses Sakura's wellbeing over everything else
<a href='http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/archive/312.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>The choice that let's you play the rest of HF</a>

Where the responsibility lies, existence of good and evil.
Losing Sakura will weigh more heavily on me than either of those things.
àI don't even need to think about it.
I just want to protect Sakura, that's all.

Ilya smiles delightedly.
""
Her innocence encourages me.
àI don't know if this is the right choice or not.
But I do know I won't regret it.

"I'm sorry, Ilya. I have to get going."

I kept on deceiving myself because I wanted her to stay by my side.
But such deception will no longer work.

Emiya Shirou does not want to lose Matou Sakura.
That's all.
If I can't think things through, I'll just have to trust in the only definite feeling I have.

àBut within my determinationà
'If you are to protect just one person'

àI can't shake off Archer's premonitory words.

in the end he was 'selfish' in choosing Sakura, but that does make him Human too.

and finally
<a href='http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/archive/313.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>The relevant continuation</a>

"She escaped death, but it is just temporary.
I was able to remove most of the crest worm, but some parts were buried too deeply to be removed. Some of it has eaten into the nerves. I can extract it all if I remove her heart, but that will kill Sakura as well."


"All I could do was to remove the crest worm that did not metabolize with her nerves, decreasing her pain and the pressure from Zouken. Her life should have ended tonight, but I prolonged it on a whim. Well, it will all be vain effort if the worm in her nerves start moving again."


"Whathen Sakura isà"


"It means nothing has changed.
She will have no problem living normally, but Zouken can easily drive her berserk.
That old man can force her to fight, whether she wants to or not. In short, she is a bomb with a lit fuse."

""
I'd be lying if I said I'm not agitated.
But I'm not surprised or puzzled.
I've made my decision already.
I chose to be on Sakura's side, no matter what happens, no matter what state she's in.


"I see. Then there's only one thing left to do. I'm sorry for making you use you Crest."


Tohsaka starts to walk.
I instantly understand what she's going to do.
"Hey, stop, Tohsakaà!"
I grab Tohsaka's hand and stop her.

"What? Talk to me later."
"What are you saying? Are you planning to kill Sakura?"

"Then what are you going to doà!?
Look, Sakura can't live unless she fights as a Master.
She has to absorb other people's magical energy to surviveà!
Don't you see how this will end!? Killing her here is for her own goodà!"

"àNo way! Why are you jumping to conclusions when she hasn't done anything yet!"


"How could I not? If this were just about Sakura, there'd be hope. But it's not, is it? That damn old man holds her life, and she's his puppet as long as he lives.
Do you think he's ever going to let her go?"
"That'sà"


"See, you understand. Zouken will never give her a moment's peace. àThenà If she's going to go through endless torment with no hope of escape, all we can do is kill her here and minimize the number of victims. Sakura and all the people Sakura will kill would be saved."


"Unlike you, I can't endanger everyone while clinging to a forlorn hope. The weakness to delay your decision is going to hurt her even more."
""
Ten people will die if we don't do anything.
But if we can save nine by sacrificing one, then...

and you know what happens latter, Sakura escapes and Shirou goes to her and hugs her in the rain, very cute moment.

in the end Shirou's choice was between letting Rin kill a lit bomb (and a Berserker under the control of Zoken) or go with his 'selfishness' and save Sakura who still has the crest worm in her heart

 

[GenocideHeart]

Both decisions would be reasonable... from different points of view. From an emotional standpoint, saving Sakura is reasonable, since, well, it's an EMOTIONAL decision. From a purely logical standpoint, though, given how the situation was ALREADY shaping up to be lethally dangerous, the SAFEST course of action for everyone else, be they involved or not, would have been to eliminate her.

To err on the side of caution is what someone who uses cold, hard logic does. It has nothing to do with morality, but with thinking in the safest possible terms and in numbers. You may not LIKE it, but it's no less reasonable a choice than yours.

Also, your claim that what Shirou did is what the majority would do is... how can I put it delicately... a load of crock. Shirou is NOT a good example of the majority of humans. The majority of humans, in a situation like Shirou's, will primarily think of THEMSELVES, and anything else comes after. You know that very well, and if you attempt to say otherwise, then you clearly are either in denial or in desperate need to get out more, because for every one person who selflessly helps someone out of mortal danger, I can show you 50 more who will viciously elbow the person they called friend moments before in order to be the first to reach safety.

It's the nature of survival instinct, and it's the ugly side of humanity that rears its head when a situation of danger and stress comes forward.

And no, mothers saving their children doesn't count as proof in your favor, because it happens to be the one exception to the rule - instinct also tells us to prioritize the future generations, which is why, among other things, when in a situation of mortal danger any living thing's first instinct tends to be to seek out the closest female and mate, and why parents prioritize their children. Again, survival instinct.

Shirou... goes against that, and because of that he and his actions actually represent the MINORITY that is genuinely capable of self-sacrifice in spite of genetics. Most of us... aren't like that. There's a reason why the media make such a big deal of martyrs to a good cause - it's because they are NOT common.

So don't say what Shirou did is 'what the majority would do'. What the majority would do is, more likely, carry a knife in their pocket and stab Sakura in the back at even the most minor sign of danger she could pose.

Humanity didn't get this far by being selfless, unfortunately.

Finally, uh... technically, 'selfishness' is also defined as 'the act of doing something to one's advantage in disregard of others'. Choosing intentionally to save Sakura even though he was warned of severe danger to others... sort of falls in the 'doing what he wants in disregard of others' group.

Selfishness isn't necessarily a BAD thing - it is actually a quite natural part of human nature, since without it we wouldn't have lasted very long as a species - it's just that it's often tainted by other, much more negative aspects like greed and hatred. THEN it becomes bad. In and of itself, selfishness is simply placing oneself - including one's own opinion and desires, and yes, even the heart's desires, like the second time you mentioned he refused to kill Sakura, above others'.

It's not negative per se, but in Magic terms, it's associated to Black. Black CAN have positive angles, you know - you seem to be arguing this based on the perception that black = evil and thus Shirou can't be it, and while this is often the case (as Black is also the color of ambition, among other things), there's been many cases in Magic lore where Black was unquestionably the GOOD color, while White and Green turned out to be quite monstrous and Red turned out to be so self-destructive it consumed anything in its vicinity too.

Examples that come to mind include Dakkon Blackblade, who for all that he was overly concerned with his personal freedom had good reason to do so (you'd be cross at being someone's toy if you had your soul stolen by some jackass Planeswalker too), Toshiro Umezawa, who while being, well, a bandit, was also pretty much the most loyal friend you could ask for, Nissa Revane who for all that she was a bit arrogant (but that's an Elf trait, it has little to do with color lol), was also genuinely attempting to save Zendikar and was mistrustful of Sorin for good reason - he was a vampire, and Nissa's experience with vampires was less than pleasant, Sorin himself who spend centuries of his existence protecting Zendikar and the multiverse from the Eldrazi, and Teysa Karlov of House Orzhov, who was actually instrumental in saving Ravnica from the Guildpact mess.

Just saying...