Nasuverse Fate/Gathering Night
- Thread starter GenocideHeart
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When given a clear shot at Shirou's back and the opportunity to kill himself and Gilgamesh in one fell swoop, he warns Shirou and aims for Gil. Despite Rin offering to contract him as a Servant so he could live again, he refuses and cites Saber deserving the chance more. Whenever I reread that scene I was feel like Archer has come to terms with his existence. Just a little bit.
He dies with such a heart wrenching smile. I have a really, really hard time imagining a person, even EMIYA, being primarily guided by negative emotions and still being able to smile so sincerely.
I think the conclusion of the fight is the beginning of Archer's redemption, or at least starting to pull himself out of his pit of self loathing.
He dies with such a heart wrenching smile. I have a really, really hard time imagining a person, even EMIYA, being primarily guided by negative emotions and still being able to smile so sincerely.
I think the conclusion of the fight is the beginning of Archer's redemption, or at least starting to pull himself out of his pit of self loathing.
Most of the time, one calls for the other. You will never see a blue mage who acts like Chandra Nalaar (who learned from someone whose motto is 'fight everything with fire'), for instance, and you will never see a black mage be a shining knight of justice (closest you get is Sorin Markov, and he's a vampire - sure, he saved Zendikar, but mainly due to personal pride, not because he's a heroic and good person).
So if someone's emotions tend towards Red, it's extremely unlikely their magic affiliation is going to be Blue. Blue magic in general requires a cool, calm, collected mind free from the hindrances of overemotional outbursts (which is why Teferi sucked at it until he stopped being an overemotional dolt and started focusing), while Red is fueled by intensity and hotbloodedness - its nature makes it flow into people who match it more easily.
So if someone's emotions tend towards Red, it's extremely unlikely their magic affiliation is going to be Blue. Blue magic in general requires a cool, calm, collected mind free from the hindrances of overemotional outbursts (which is why Teferi sucked at it until he stopped being an overemotional dolt and started focusing), while Red is fueled by intensity and hotbloodedness - its nature makes it flow into people who match it more easily.
Bridge scene, Sakura admitting she values herself more than she values others. Seems like a reasonably good argument for aspects of a Black personality .and an argument against White. It also aligns nicely with unconsciously casting an absorption spell. Not ironclad, and one can argue that she's just protective towards certain people, but that alone does not scream White to me. Though admittedly, it's been a while since I've had occasion to play Magic and I'm behind on the lore.
Feel free to convince us otherwise though, I'd like to hear what makes you think she's White. Otherwise it sounds like you're just trying to suggest an element not Black. Personally, I think Black and Green describe her pretty well. There's supporting life and growth, particularly when she's given the opportunity to flourish, and she does adapt to horrific torture to keep from utterly breaking. But there's also that amorality that, when pushed and prodded, will do anything to survive and thrive at the expense of others, and revels in finally having power. Definitely characteristics of Green and Black, particularly when Sakura is drunk on Evuls.
Also, What Magic Color Are You describes Black as a corrupting influence, and when I think of how Sakura's story dominates Heaven's Feel I get a good laugh.
Feel free to convince us otherwise though, I'd like to hear what makes you think she's White. Otherwise it sounds like you're just trying to suggest an element not Black. Personally, I think Black and Green describe her pretty well. There's supporting life and growth, particularly when she's given the opportunity to flourish, and she does adapt to horrific torture to keep from utterly breaking. But there's also that amorality that, when pushed and prodded, will do anything to survive and thrive at the expense of others, and revels in finally having power. Definitely characteristics of Green and Black, particularly when Sakura is drunk on Evuls.
Also, What Magic Color Are You describes Black as a corrupting influence, and when I think of how Sakura's story dominates Heaven's Feel I get a good laugh.
Sakura says that, but it's quite patently not true. She is just very good at self-depreciation.
If she truly valued herself more than others, then she would not have spent her entire life hiding the fact that she's being horribly tortured every day and she would certainly not feel sympathy for Shinji, let alone protect him. In fact, she seems to assign virtually zero value to herself.
The problem is that Sakura values herself (at that point, at least) more than she thinks she should value herself, and thus sees it as "I value myself more than others". But, since she thinks that she is essentially worthless and, thus, assigns zero value to herself, that doesn't say much. If you look at her actions (outside of her dark form), she is certainly no more selfish than, for instance, Rin or Saber, neither of whom you would seriously suggest are black.
Well, yeah, I was more suggesting that she's not black than that she's white specifically. She is generally a very kind and caring person, though, and I have a feeling that that is a "white" characteristic.
Green probably fits her best, though. I don't think she's got much red at all, and she has relatively little blue too, IMO.
Where?
Since when is Sakura "amoral"? Find a single instance of her acting as such (when she's not influenced by Angra Mainyu). Even when she "wishes" Shirou would lose his arm (under AM's influence), she does it because she wants him to stop protecting her, even though she's going to die if he doesn't find a way to save her. That's about as selfless as you can get.
In her Dark form she's black, yes, but her normal form is not even close.
If she truly valued herself more than others, then she would not have spent her entire life hiding the fact that she's being horribly tortured every day and she would certainly not feel sympathy for Shinji, let alone protect him. In fact, she seems to assign virtually zero value to herself.
The problem is that Sakura values herself (at that point, at least) more than she thinks she should value herself, and thus sees it as "I value myself more than others". But, since she thinks that she is essentially worthless and, thus, assigns zero value to herself, that doesn't say much. If you look at her actions (outside of her dark form), she is certainly no more selfish than, for instance, Rin or Saber, neither of whom you would seriously suggest are black.
Well, yeah, I was more suggesting that she's not black than that she's white specifically. She is generally a very kind and caring person, though, and I have a feeling that that is a "white" characteristic.
Green probably fits her best, though. I don't think she's got much red at all, and she has relatively little blue too, IMO.
Where?
Since when is Sakura "amoral"? Find a single instance of her acting as such (when she's not influenced by Angra Mainyu). Even when she "wishes" Shirou would lose his arm (under AM's influence), she does it because she wants him to stop protecting her, even though she's going to die if he doesn't find a way to save her. That's about as selfless as you can get.
In her Dark form she's black, yes, but her normal form is not even close.
Please. Revealing what she went through wouldn't have saved her so I don't buy that as proof of saintliness, nor is having a sense of empathy. Stockholm Syndrome Mike. Stockholm Syndrome. Sympathy for her captors does not mean she's a selfless person.
And that line refers to not killing herself because she knew she'd snap and hurt someone. Which, well, she did, so it's a well founded fear. Suicide may not be the appropriate response, but she did know she was a danger to others.
Besides, others isn't just Shinji or, Shirou, it's random people around the city too. Guess who I never see Sakura express remorse for?
I'm not willing to call her selfless. She unconsciously lashed out for prana. If her instinct was to chow down on Rin to feed herself, that's not an indication of selflessness. Those instincts are telling of her unconscious thought process. Even if she wouldn't consciously act on them, they were there. They had to be squashed.
Sorry, I don't disregard her actions in dark form. She's connected to AM, is influenced, and I do hold her accountable for those actions. Sure, it's mitigated, but she's drunk on power and evil in the end.
Not that you hold this view, but I do.
You have a feeling? Does that mean you've never even played Magic?
White isn't Good, White is Law and Lawful Sakura is not. Kind and caring? It's been a while, but I cannot recall a single card extolling those virtues.
Want an example of White? Kiritsugu. Saber. Mind of Steel Shirou. Doing what is best for the community at large is a characteristic of White. Killing Sakura before she can harm more people would be more aligned with White. White is not always nice. It can be, but Law is more important.
Hell, look at the White Land cards. Lots of arid, barren locations. There's a reason for that. Warm and nurturing are not the defining characteristics, and angels are more often than not armored and ready for combat.
So...now Green is the best fit. Before it was Green or White.
Oy. Have you ever even played before? You don't sounds like you have.
Dark Sakura. Wants Shinji to die. Revels in it afterwards. Enjoys having power over Rin when she accepts the contract.
Her brain is dosed with evil, but I always saw it as AM exaggerating the darkest aspects of her personality.
And I don't separate the two. Sakura is influenced by AM, yes, but that doesn't mean there's some evil secondary source that does all the bad deeds. Ultimately she makes the shots even if she's manipulated. It might happen in her subconscious in the beginning, but that's just it: her subconscious. It's part of her so I carry it over to her waking self. The Black is just latent before she goes full blown evil.
I see Sakura as tainted by association and sharing headspace with AM. Dark Sakura is just letting it out.
Man that was nostalgic. I haven't sat down and given serious thought the Magic elements in a long time.
And that line refers to not killing herself because she knew she'd snap and hurt someone. Which, well, she did, so it's a well founded fear. Suicide may not be the appropriate response, but she did know she was a danger to others.
Besides, others isn't just Shinji or, Shirou, it's random people around the city too. Guess who I never see Sakura express remorse for?
I'm not willing to call her selfless. She unconsciously lashed out for prana. If her instinct was to chow down on Rin to feed herself, that's not an indication of selflessness. Those instincts are telling of her unconscious thought process. Even if she wouldn't consciously act on them, they were there. They had to be squashed.
Sorry, I don't disregard her actions in dark form. She's connected to AM, is influenced, and I do hold her accountable for those actions. Sure, it's mitigated, but she's drunk on power and evil in the end.
Not that you hold this view, but I do.
You have a feeling? Does that mean you've never even played Magic?
White isn't Good, White is Law and Lawful Sakura is not. Kind and caring? It's been a while, but I cannot recall a single card extolling those virtues.
Want an example of White? Kiritsugu. Saber. Mind of Steel Shirou. Doing what is best for the community at large is a characteristic of White. Killing Sakura before she can harm more people would be more aligned with White. White is not always nice. It can be, but Law is more important.
Hell, look at the White Land cards. Lots of arid, barren locations. There's a reason for that. Warm and nurturing are not the defining characteristics, and angels are more often than not armored and ready for combat.
So...now Green is the best fit. Before it was Green or White.
Oy. Have you ever even played before? You don't sounds like you have.
Dark Sakura. Wants Shinji to die. Revels in it afterwards. Enjoys having power over Rin when she accepts the contract.
Her brain is dosed with evil, but I always saw it as AM exaggerating the darkest aspects of her personality.
And I don't separate the two. Sakura is influenced by AM, yes, but that doesn't mean there's some evil secondary source that does all the bad deeds. Ultimately she makes the shots even if she's manipulated. It might happen in her subconscious in the beginning, but that's just it: her subconscious. It's part of her so I carry it over to her waking self. The Black is just latent before she goes full blown evil.
I see Sakura as tainted by association and sharing headspace with AM. Dark Sakura is just letting it out.
Man that was nostalgic. I haven't sat down and given serious thought the Magic elements in a long time.
Please note White. Protect the social order and the rule of law.
White really emphasized The Greater Good. And in the name of the greater good they can be complete monsters.
Yes, White is basically the Tau.
Being considerate of a single person over the many is more Red, since you're doing it out of friendship and personal feelings for someone. It's also Green since Green can be the color of nurturing and care.
White CAN care for the individual... so long as doing so doesn't endanger the many and jeopardize the Greater Good. If it does, then you're expendable in White's view.
Revealing what she went through would have made it possible for her to be saved.
Stop throwing around random psychological issues like you actually know what they mean.
Sakura does not have Stockholm Syndrome. Her actions do not fit with the symptoms of it in any way. She is simply a very caring person with zero self-esteem.
Perhaps, but that still does not make her a selfish person.
I don't recall seeing Rin express much remorse for them either.
Further, I distinctly do recall Sakura feeling "guilty" about what happened in HF, even though it was not at all her fault. I don't see how that is in any way "selfish".
How the hell is an instinct to eat when you're hungry "selfish"? Every single fucking human being on the planet would act that way, because the instinct to survive is built-in to us. We can override it consciously, but Sakura's consciousness was not in control.
Regardless of whether you "hold her accountable" or not, it's patently clear that AM has a significant effect on her personality, and that's what we're arguing here.
She's controlled and influenced by Angra Mainyu.
Also, I recall you admitting to Altima that you don't actually know anything about HF....
Not that you hold this view, but I do.
No, I haven't, hence my reluctance to assign colours to her.
Fair enough, I can accept that.
No, I haven't.
But that doesn't mean that I can't argue that Sakura is not black, because she's not selfish in the slightest.
So, I ask for an example where she's not influenced by Angra Mainyu, and you come out and give me one where she quite explicitly is....
AM seems to amplify her darker emotions and suppress her positive ones, yes. However, the result is not an indication of how she would act normally. Further, amorality is a generic result of amplifying darker aspects of a personality, so the fact that Dark Sakura shows some amorality (and even then it's not complete, she still begs Shirou to run away and refrains from killing Rin) tells you absolutely nothing about normal Sakura, even based on your interpretation.
Except that AM heavily influences Sakura's personality, to the point that she's practically a different person entirely. Using the actions of Dark Sakura as an indicator of the personality of normal Sakura is just plain stupid.
Seriously, what?
The way the shadow acts unconsciously is no different from how anyone else would act in such a situation. She's hungry, so she eats. She has some level of resentment for Rin (understandably), so she attacks her first and spares Shirou.
And you're entirely wrong. Sakura is not simply "sharing headspace with AM", AM is not even there until Zouken manages to activate her at the beginning of HF.
Stop throwing around random psychological issues like you actually know what they mean.
Sakura does not have Stockholm Syndrome. Her actions do not fit with the symptoms of it in any way. She is simply a very caring person with zero self-esteem.
Perhaps, but that still does not make her a selfish person.
I don't recall seeing Rin express much remorse for them either.
Further, I distinctly do recall Sakura feeling "guilty" about what happened in HF, even though it was not at all her fault. I don't see how that is in any way "selfish".
How the hell is an instinct to eat when you're hungry "selfish"? Every single fucking human being on the planet would act that way, because the instinct to survive is built-in to us. We can override it consciously, but Sakura's consciousness was not in control.
Regardless of whether you "hold her accountable" or not, it's patently clear that AM has a significant effect on her personality, and that's what we're arguing here.
She's controlled and influenced by Angra Mainyu.
Also, I recall you admitting to Altima that you don't actually know anything about HF....
Not that you hold this view, but I do.
No, I haven't, hence my reluctance to assign colours to her.
Fair enough, I can accept that.
No, I haven't.
But that doesn't mean that I can't argue that Sakura is not black, because she's not selfish in the slightest.
So, I ask for an example where she's not influenced by Angra Mainyu, and you come out and give me one where she quite explicitly is....
AM seems to amplify her darker emotions and suppress her positive ones, yes. However, the result is not an indication of how she would act normally. Further, amorality is a generic result of amplifying darker aspects of a personality, so the fact that Dark Sakura shows some amorality (and even then it's not complete, she still begs Shirou to run away and refrains from killing Rin) tells you absolutely nothing about normal Sakura, even based on your interpretation.
Except that AM heavily influences Sakura's personality, to the point that she's practically a different person entirely. Using the actions of Dark Sakura as an indicator of the personality of normal Sakura is just plain stupid.
Seriously, what?
The way the shadow acts unconsciously is no different from how anyone else would act in such a situation. She's hungry, so she eats. She has some level of resentment for Rin (understandably), so she attacks her first and spares Shirou.
And you're entirely wrong. Sakura is not simply "sharing headspace with AM", AM is not even there until Zouken manages to activate her at the beginning of HF.
For someone accusing me of having no idea what I'm talking about, you're rather reluctant to offer up concrete evidence. You don't even describe what Stockholm Syndrome is.
Newsflash: A symptom of Stockholm Syndrome is a captive is expressing sympathy for their captors. After ten years of rape and trauma, you claim Sakura doesn't fit any of the criteria? You even say she feels sympathy for Shinji, her rapist, in your last post. Yet you reject the possibility out of hand and claim that she fits none of the symptoms. You offer no specific examples to support your point, just say it is so.
Do you even think before you talk?
Uh...no, I think you're remembering that wrong. Either that or I mistyped something in my conversation with Altima. I've never played HF on account of not having the VN. I read the Let's Play and watched videos when I was interested in certain scenes. It's faster and prevents my interest from flagging.
Also, if I didn't know anything of HF I wouldn't be able to pull details like the bridge scene or Sakura instinctively lashing out with magic, now would I? Good lord, think before you open your mouth. At the very least I clearly have source material to draw from.
Now, if you mean I know know nothing of HA, then you're closer to the mark if still not entirely correct. I've never played or read a translation of it, though I have been spoiled to the point where I said screw it and indulged my curiosity on the wikia and fan sites. Admittedly not anywhere near perfect or accurate, but hey, it's better than nothing until I have time for better.
Right, we're done here. Your post doesn't even try to talk about Magic anymore. Arguing with you no longer interests me.
Newsflash: A symptom of Stockholm Syndrome is a captive is expressing sympathy for their captors. After ten years of rape and trauma, you claim Sakura doesn't fit any of the criteria? You even say she feels sympathy for Shinji, her rapist, in your last post. Yet you reject the possibility out of hand and claim that she fits none of the symptoms. You offer no specific examples to support your point, just say it is so.
Do you even think before you talk?
Uh...no, I think you're remembering that wrong. Either that or I mistyped something in my conversation with Altima. I've never played HF on account of not having the VN. I read the Let's Play and watched videos when I was interested in certain scenes. It's faster and prevents my interest from flagging.
Also, if I didn't know anything of HF I wouldn't be able to pull details like the bridge scene or Sakura instinctively lashing out with magic, now would I? Good lord, think before you open your mouth. At the very least I clearly have source material to draw from.
Now, if you mean I know know nothing of HA, then you're closer to the mark if still not entirely correct. I've never played or read a translation of it, though I have been spoiled to the point where I said screw it and indulged my curiosity on the wikia and fan sites. Admittedly not anywhere near perfect or accurate, but hey, it's better than nothing until I have time for better.
Right, we're done here. Your post doesn't even try to talk about Magic anymore. Arguing with you no longer interests me.
The reason I'm treating your statement with such contempt is because we've had the exact same discussion before, and the result was essentially Tobias (who is the only guy who has any actual knowledge of psychiatry) laughing at the person who claimed she has Stockholm Syndrome.
Anyway, <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_Syndrome' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>here</a> is the wikipedia article on Stockholm Syndrome. Note that it says that it tends to apply in circumstances where the captors do not abuse their victims, and they mistake a lack of abuse for genuine care.
Further, it is not my job to prove that she does not have it, you need to prove that she does, and you have provided absolutely zero evidence of such. You just do not wish to admit that Sakura actually is a genuinely caring person, so you look for every excuse you can find to prove otherwise, no matter how flimsy.
Shinji is not Sakura's "captor". Sakura could easily stop his abuse if she just fought back, as HF shows.
Do you even think before you talk?
Exactly....
Well, perhaps, but nevertheless you did admit that you needed to read through it again....
Well, I've not read HA either, so I'm not in any better a position on that front.
Ah, so you know damn well that you have absolutely no argument against my opinion of Sakura's personality, so you're just conviniently hiding behind "it's got nothing to do with magic", even though we're arguing about what "colour" Sakura would be.
Anyway, <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_Syndrome' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>here</a> is the wikipedia article on Stockholm Syndrome. Note that it says that it tends to apply in circumstances where the captors do not abuse their victims, and they mistake a lack of abuse for genuine care.
Further, it is not my job to prove that she does not have it, you need to prove that she does, and you have provided absolutely zero evidence of such. You just do not wish to admit that Sakura actually is a genuinely caring person, so you look for every excuse you can find to prove otherwise, no matter how flimsy.
Shinji is not Sakura's "captor". Sakura could easily stop his abuse if she just fought back, as HF shows.
Do you even think before you talk?
Exactly....
Well, perhaps, but nevertheless you did admit that you needed to read through it again....
Well, I've not read HA either, so I'm not in any better a position on that front.
Ah, so you know damn well that you have absolutely no argument against my opinion of Sakura's personality, so you're just conviniently hiding behind "it's got nothing to do with magic", even though we're arguing about what "colour" Sakura would be.
No, we're not. Your last post is about Sakura being a caring person and reasons for saying so. You're not discussing what color she is and providing arguments for or against, or even trying to make suggestions. GH posted five pics that give a nice overview but you don't say, "See, she's caring, she's Green!" Though Green being nurturing isn't there, he did say it and you have plenty of traits to play Color association with.
Hell I've been waiting for you to say Sakura and her shadow instinctively eating others because she's hungry is a strong trait of Green. Instinct? Love to eat? It's right there in the picture. Not a hard connection to draw, or if you were hesitant, to suggest. If you had I would have been forced to agree or find evidence to the contrary. But you never even picked up on it. It was an easy connection to draw, and you didn't make it. So I can only conclude that you're either utterly dense or not even trying. I favor the latter.
What comes out of your mouth is Sakura, Sakura, Sakura. It's clearly the only thing you want to talk about, but my willingness to play ball has ended.
Also, you're an extremely unpleasant person to talk to. If the argument doesn't interest me, I'm not wasting my time when it could be better spent. Admittedly a discussion on Stockholm Syndrome does interest me, but as you got the argument from Tobias you're not the person I'd like to discuss it with. If you want to call it a victory for yourself and Sakura, or that I'm quitting out of impotency and shame, then go right ahead. You win an ego boost, and I win by doing more interesting things. That outcome is acceptable to me. Especially if it means other people get back to matching up the Nasuverse with Magic.
Hell I've been waiting for you to say Sakura and her shadow instinctively eating others because she's hungry is a strong trait of Green. Instinct? Love to eat? It's right there in the picture. Not a hard connection to draw, or if you were hesitant, to suggest. If you had I would have been forced to agree or find evidence to the contrary. But you never even picked up on it. It was an easy connection to draw, and you didn't make it. So I can only conclude that you're either utterly dense or not even trying. I favor the latter.
What comes out of your mouth is Sakura, Sakura, Sakura. It's clearly the only thing you want to talk about, but my willingness to play ball has ended.
Also, you're an extremely unpleasant person to talk to. If the argument doesn't interest me, I'm not wasting my time when it could be better spent. Admittedly a discussion on Stockholm Syndrome does interest me, but as you got the argument from Tobias you're not the person I'd like to discuss it with. If you want to call it a victory for yourself and Sakura, or that I'm quitting out of impotency and shame, then go right ahead. You win an ego boost, and I win by doing more interesting things. That outcome is acceptable to me. Especially if it means other people get back to matching up the Nasuverse with Magic.
You'll need to provide a seed to build the scenario around.
Based on the original scenario, you'll need to define the respective times when the crossover is happening and who is crossing over to the Nasu-verse. Even before fleshing out the planeswalker's details, his or her home plane is going to be a big influence in what happens. Someone from Ravnica is not going to have the same response as someone from say, Kamigawa, much less someone from Phyrexia new or old.
Based on the original scenario, you'll need to define the respective times when the crossover is happening and who is crossing over to the Nasu-verse. Even before fleshing out the planeswalker's details, his or her home plane is going to be a big influence in what happens. Someone from Ravnica is not going to have the same response as someone from say, Kamigawa, much less someone from Phyrexia new or old.
Must we, oh Random Capitalizer? For my part, I find it quite fun.
This thread has in fact led me to a theory that Shirou's path along the three routes is a progression from mono-white to mono-red.
See, Fate Shirou is mono-white. All about being a hero, all about saving people. But he's mono-white the same way a lot of the less-impressive lifegain and support cards are: nice, caring, willing to stand up for what's right, and concerned with an ideal, but not very effective when actually duking it out face to face with the forces of darkness. He is the Healing Salve of Shirous. He needs Saber (a much "whiter" character) to prop him up.
UBW Shirou is hybrid red/white. He's seen the flaw in his ideal and is willing to make compromises. However, he holds onto it anyway, just because it's beautiful, and is willing to fight for it. That kind of burning desire is totally red, but the actual ideal is white. Thus hybrid card.
HF Shirou is mono-red. The whole burning desire thing is there, but it's all focused on saving Sakura. He's betrayed his ideals for a friend and is willing to doom the world for her sake. That's as red as it gets.
If there's anything white left about him it's that his projection ability came from his originally white ideals. So he'd probably be a mono-red creature with an activated ability featuring a [W][R], [T]: casting cost (the red coming from Archer's arm. More on that later.)
Then there's MoS Shirou. Had a MoS-route actually been made it would've meant the whole thing coming full circle. MoS Shirou is mono-white, but he's white the way angels are - a stone-cold badass concerned with nothing more than upholding justice. If Fate Shirou were a white card costing [3][W], MoS Shirou would cost three white mana instead.
And Archer. Archer is totally red, since the structure of his motivations is similar to HF Shirou's - he has one thing he wants, and fuck the world if it gets in his way.
However, while HF Shirou is a faggot because he betrays his ideals for (diseased, penis-worm-filled) pussy, Archer is absolutely awesome because he feels his ideals betrayed him, and in response he travels through fucking time to kill himself in a duel to the death so that they will never take root. That's not just mono-red, it's metal as fuck. Five stars.
This thread has in fact led me to a theory that Shirou's path along the three routes is a progression from mono-white to mono-red.
See, Fate Shirou is mono-white. All about being a hero, all about saving people. But he's mono-white the same way a lot of the less-impressive lifegain and support cards are: nice, caring, willing to stand up for what's right, and concerned with an ideal, but not very effective when actually duking it out face to face with the forces of darkness. He is the Healing Salve of Shirous. He needs Saber (a much "whiter" character) to prop him up.
UBW Shirou is hybrid red/white. He's seen the flaw in his ideal and is willing to make compromises. However, he holds onto it anyway, just because it's beautiful, and is willing to fight for it. That kind of burning desire is totally red, but the actual ideal is white. Thus hybrid card.
HF Shirou is mono-red. The whole burning desire thing is there, but it's all focused on saving Sakura. He's betrayed his ideals for a friend and is willing to doom the world for her sake. That's as red as it gets.
If there's anything white left about him it's that his projection ability came from his originally white ideals. So he'd probably be a mono-red creature with an activated ability featuring a [W][R], [T]: casting cost (the red coming from Archer's arm. More on that later.)
Then there's MoS Shirou. Had a MoS-route actually been made it would've meant the whole thing coming full circle. MoS Shirou is mono-white, but he's white the way angels are - a stone-cold badass concerned with nothing more than upholding justice. If Fate Shirou were a white card costing [3][W], MoS Shirou would cost three white mana instead.
And Archer. Archer is totally red, since the structure of his motivations is similar to HF Shirou's - he has one thing he wants, and fuck the world if it gets in his way.
However, while HF Shirou is a faggot because he betrays his ideals for (diseased, penis-worm-filled) pussy, Archer is absolutely awesome because he feels his ideals betrayed him, and in response he travels through fucking time to kill himself in a duel to the death so that they will never take root. That's not just mono-red, it's metal as fuck. Five stars.
Mike it's fucking stated both in the VN and by Nasu that by FOCUSING in saving ONE PERSON in this case Sakura, HF Shirou betryed his save EVERYONE ideal while MoS did that too by killing her to save many.
and he was willing to say :fuck the world i want my sakura, it was a side effect of him saving Sakura what allowed them to save the world.
HF-Shirou: primary red to mono red
MoS-Shirou: Primary white-blue
and he was willing to say :fuck the world i want my sakura, it was a side effect of him saving Sakura what allowed them to save the world.
HF-Shirou: primary red to mono red
MoS-Shirou: Primary white-blue