Nasuverse Iron is my blood, and LIGHT is my heart

[nixofcyzerra]

Wait, Avalon draws upon energy from Saber, whose dragon core produces prana, right? Shirou doesn't have any prana within him. He has Od. Doesn't that mean he'd have to convert his od into prana and then direct it to Avalon for any healing to take place?

Prana is simply a general term for life energy in general, and includes both od, the life energy of a particular person, and mana, the life energy of Gaia.

Quoted from the type-moon wiki:

Strictly speaking, mana and od are energy in it's raw state, while prana is the name given to the energy once it is converted by the Magic Circuits.

Quoted from the Fuyuki website:

Circuits

???? - Majutsu Kairo

The pseudo-nerves within a magus' body. What produces one's own Prana and the pipeline that moves the system or to be more precise, the pathways to convert life energy into Prana, the pathways that take in and convert Mana into something usable, and the pathways that connect to the high thaumaturgy formula (program) systems. What connects the ethereal body to the material plane.

Od and Mana are raw, Prana is processed.

I was under the impression that after Saber vanished following the destruction of the 4th HF's grail, Avalon had a fixed amount of prana left in it, that was used up over the years every time Shirou was injured. Otherwise how could a very low-level healing factor help Shirou survive the fire? And where was it stated that Avalon was what allowed Shirou to survive creating temporary magic circuits?

While Avalon did have a fixed amount of Prana in it, and it was used up healing him from the fire, Avalon eventually became capable of using Shirou's prana, due to being a part of his body for more than 10 years. It's not as effective when it's running on Shirou's prana, as it is on Sabers, but it still works.

So Archer has a weak healing factor?

Only as much as any other Servant does. Remember, Archer doesn't have Avalon, and he's long past the point of being able to Trace it.

So he gave it away in the hypothetical Ilya route he's supposed to have come from?

Yep, back during his own Grail War.

Q: Archer's greatest defence is "Rho Aias", but if he were the same person as Shirou, shouldn't his greatest protection be "Avalon"? In the Rin route, Archer knew that the holy sword's sheath was inside Shirou, so wouldn't the Heroic Spirit form of the Shirou that "knew" that the sheath was merged with him be Archer?
A: Avalonüs power won't work if Saber's not connected to it. It's a different story during the Grail War, but all it does when Saber isn't around is make Shirou's magic attribute into "sword". Also, after the Grail War is taken apart, the line between him and her will be gone, so it's best to think that his image of "Avalon" also disappeared.

-Fate complete material.

I'd take that with a grain of salt, since Nasu is known to retcon whatever he feels like. I'd also point out that, that is a question about Archer, who neither possess Avalon, or is capable of tracing it anymore.

Wait, Avalon draws upon energy from Saber, who's dragon core produces prana, right? Shirou doesn't have any prana within him. He has Od. Doesn't that mean he'd have to convert his od into prana and then direct it to Avalon for any healing to take place?

Pretty much. It means he has to consciously use it, making it slightly less hax.

So then he couldn't have used it to survive turning his nerves into temporary magic circuits like knight of ni said, as he didn't know he even had it at that time. I didn't think that was right.

MoB, while I'll certainly accept the possibility that Shirou can recharge Avalon's energy reserves to up his regen rate, and even consider it probable, as he had no problem using it's active ability against Kirei at the end of Fate, I don't recall him actually consciously charging the Avalon inside him in the VN. In fact, the only instance I can think of Shirou doing that is in Gabriel Blessing's "In Flight." Was there a scene in the VN where Shirou did so?

He traces it against Kirei in Fate, because his body still remembered it. He was able to trace a fully charged Avalon, which would imply he knows how to charge it himself.

He traced an Avalon, yes. But I always thought that Avalon's active ultimate defence worked like any other Noble Phantasm, where you channel prana into it to activate and maintain it. To use a metaphor, it works off the mains, while the passive regeneration works off the battery. And while Shirou can plug Avalon into the main supply well enough, we're never shown him re-charging the battery. Although it stands to reason he could learn how to without much trouble.

Also, we need a combo breaker, stat!

 

[Deathwings]

There's no variation in how Noble Phantasm are "charged" as far as can tell. Infusing odd/prana into Avalon is the exact same process as infusing a random bit of wood.

The two difference with Avalon is that it can only be charged with the Odd/Prana of the person its attuned to (all traced item are automatically attuned to Shirou) and it has both a passive mode (regeneration) and an active mode (Ever Distant Utopia). Both mode need Avalon to be charged to work and both mode can be maintained as long as the holder keep infusing Odd/Prana into it.

 

[nick012000]

There's no variation in how Noble Phantasm are "charged" as far as can tell. Infusing odd/prana into Avalon is the exact same process as infusing a random bit of wood.

I am not entirely sure that that is the case; I'm pretty sure there's a difference between inserting the prana into the soul of the object (or person, or whatever, like how Masters support their Servants, and I think that this is what Rin does with her gems), and inserting it into the physical structure (like how Shirou does with his Reinforcement). I'm not sure which is necessary to active Noble Phantasms; it may well vary from Noble Phantasm to Noble Phantasm.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

The two difference with Avalon is that it can only be charged with the Odd/Prana of the person its attuned to (all traced item are automatically attuned to Shirou) and it has both a passive mode (regeneration) and an active mode (Ever Distant Utopia). Both mode need Avalon to be charged to work and both mode can be maintained as long as the holder keep infusing Odd/Prana into it.

Well, in the end it doesn't really matter. Shirou's not going to be aware of Avalon being within him for some time, so he's not going to be able to take it out, project a copy, or charge it himself. When he summons Saber, prana will start to flow from her to Shirou, meaning his wounds will start to heal. Ultimate defences are boring anyway.

There's no variation in how Noble Phantasm are "charged" as far as can tell. Infusing odd/prana into Avalon is the exact same process as infusing a random bit of wood.

I am not entirely sure that that is the case; I'm pretty sure there's a difference between inserting the prana into the soul of the object (or person, or whatever, like how Masters support their Servants, and I think that this is what Rin does with her gems), and inserting it into the physical structure (like how Shirou does with his Reinforcement). I'm not sure which is necessary to active Noble Phantasms; it may well vary from Noble Phantasm to Noble Phantasm.

Doesn't Archer's Crane Wing Three Chains involve reinforcing Kanshou and Bakuya to the point where they explode?

That differs from a "regular" Broken Phantasm, which implies that NP activation and reinforcement are not the same thing.

 

[MastaofBitches]

There's no variation in how Noble Phantasm are "charged" as far as can tell. Infusing odd/prana into Avalon is the exact same process as infusing a random bit of wood.

I am not entirely sure that that is the case; I'm pretty sure there's a difference between inserting the prana into the soul of the object (or person, or whatever, like how Masters support their Servants, and I think that this is what Rin does with her gems), and inserting it into the physical structure (like how Shirou does with his Reinforcement). I'm not sure which is necessary to active Noble Phantasms; it may well vary from Noble Phantasm to Noble Phantasm.

Doesn't Archer's Crane Wing Three Chains involve reinforcing Kanshou and Bakuya to the point where they explode?

That differs from a "regular" Broken Phantasm, which implies that NP activation and reinforcement are not the same thing.

I thought that was due to Archer using Alteration, to add that effect to them? Like how he uses Alteration to make the swords bigger.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

There's no variation in how Noble Phantasm are "charged" as far as can tell. Infusing odd/prana into Avalon is the exact same process as infusing a random bit of wood.

I am not entirely sure that that is the case; I'm pretty sure there's a difference between inserting the prana into the soul of the object (or person, or whatever, like how Masters support their Servants, and I think that this is what Rin does with her gems), and inserting it into the physical structure (like how Shirou does with his Reinforcement). I'm not sure which is necessary to active Noble Phantasms; it may well vary from Noble Phantasm to Noble Phantasm.

Doesn't Archer's Crane Wing Three Chains involve reinforcing Kanshou and Bakuya to the point where they explode?

That differs from a "regular" Broken Phantasm, which implies that NP activation and reinforcement are not the same thing.

I thought that was due to Archer using Alteration, to add that effect to them? Like how he uses Alteration to make the swords bigger.

I think he uses both. Alteration to make them bigger, and over-reinforcement to make them explode.

 

[MWkillkenny84]

I think he uses both. Alteration to make them bigger, and over-reinforcement to make them explode.

Both, both.

 

[Lord of Bones]

Huh, I just rewatched the blessings of the fairies on Youtube; Maleficent actually does give Aurora a beneficial gift - grace. Flora's and Fauna's gifts were beauty and song respectively.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Huh, I just rewatched the blessings of the fairies on Youtube; Maleficent actually does give Aurora a beneficial gift - grace. Flora's and Fauna's gifts were beauty and song respectively.

Maleficent: My, so touchy, Merryweather. I gave her a fine gift of sublime grace, that her every movement be a thing of beauty.

Merryweather: You cursed her to die on her 16th year!

Maleficent: Ugh, fine, focus on that...

I've written a few drafts for scenes with Maleficent that still need quite a bit of improvement, but Mal is proving a lot of fun to write. She's such a big ham, and such a troll, half the time I expect Kirei to start blushing while talking to her.

If, post-Ansem's defeat, Kirei were to get his hands on Jafar's lamp, what do you think he'd wish for?

 

[Lord of Bones]

I can't see Trollmine wishing for anything, unless he's still seeking an answer as to why a creature like him was allowed to be born.

 

[MWkillkenny84]

I can't see Trollmine wishing for anything, unless he's still seeking an answer as to why a creature like him was allowed to be born.

Quoted for truth.
Hell, it IS one of his greater questions of WHY one like him is born!

 

[nixofcyzerra]

I can't see Trollmine wishing for anything, unless he's still seeking an answer as to why a creature like him was allowed to be born.

I'll be honest, I thought something similar. I had a scene in mind where Kirei has the lamp in his hands, the ominous atmosphere peaks... and then he just tosses it aside like trash.

But wouldn't he wish to be a different sort of being? What's stopping him from wishing for knowledge? That isn't against the rules Genie mentions to Aladdin. And if Genie can turn Jafar into a Genie himself...

I know where I want Trollomine's character development to be at the climax of this fic. Unfortunately, I don't think I can find a place in Kirei's C.D where I could write the afore-mentioned scene.

 

[nick012000]

He could also wish to understand why he is the way he is; the Holy Grail just showed him the end result while skipping over the reasoning that led to it.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

He could also wish to understand why he is the way he is; the Holy Grail just showed him the end result while skipping over the reasoning that led to it.

Exactly. Wishing for knowledge. And there goes the last stretch of my plot for Kirei, which largely consists of him searching for that knowledge.

Unless...

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Those who are keeping up to date with the F/SN question thread will be aware that I asked what was up with the Underworld that Gil visited, if people in the nasu-verse re-incarnate when they die (unless ToH or Avalon shenanigans happen.) I've done some research, and as far as I can tell, the only reference made towards the Underworld in all of Type-moon's works is in Gil's legend.

So I'm probably going to have the Underworld of Olympus Colosseum be where Gil went to get the potion. Hades still burns when he thinks about Gil's last visit.

Also, Gilgamesh versus Sephiroth. Place your bets.

Seriously, place your bets. I've got no idea who'd win.

 

[nick012000]

Hercules visited the Underworld as well, in one of his legends. Most likely, it is/they are (a) pocket-dimension(s) created by the gods, similar to those created by Phantasmal Beasts and Faeries to retreat from the world.

Also, now that I think about it, Hercules might well survive the destruction of the world as well, thanks to his God Hand. He loses his Heart, becomes a humanoid Nobody (because he is motherfucking Hercules), and then promptly regenerates his Heart and becomes immune to the Darkness thanks to the God Hand's ability.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Hercules visited the Underworld as well, in one of his legends. Most likely, it is/they are (a) pocket-dimension(s) created by the gods, similar to those created by Phantasmal Beasts and Faeries to retreat from the world.

Also, now that I think about it, Hercules might well survive the destruction of the world as well, thanks to his God Hand. He loses his Heart, becomes a humanoid Nobody (because he is motherfucking Hercules), and then promptly regenerates his Heart and becomes immune to the Darkness thanks to the God Hand's ability.

How the hell did I forget that? Fair enough. I'll have the Underworld that Heracles visited be a pocket dimension created by F/SN Hades, while the one that Gil visited be the one in Olympus Coliseum, that the legends got confused with.

I just like the symmetry that Hades had a potion to turn Herc mortal, and an antidote or a potion that does the opposite, that Gil swiped.

As for your second idea, Berserker Heracles is a Servant. Servants are comprised of the 5th substance, while humans and other living things are made out of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The Heartless can barely even sense Servants, and Servants cannot become incomplete beings like Heartless or Nobodies. They're immune. Of course, an extremely powerful Heartless could kill a servant through blunt trauma or whatever.

And God Hand protects Heracles from death, and losing one's Heart is not really the same thing. It's possible that "Axlechres" would be a Nobody that would need to be defeated 12 times if Heracles had lost his Heart while he was alive, but...

 

[MastaofBitches]

Also, Gilgamesh versus Sephiroth. Place your bets.

Seriously, place your bets. I've got no idea who'd win.

Gilgamesh wins. Because, as tough as Sephiroth is in Kingdom Hearts, he still looses to a kid in clown shoes, wielding a giant key, and his talking animal sidekicks. He may get a couple of good hits in, but Gil could waste him without much effort.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Also, Gilgamesh versus Sephiroth. Place your bets.

Seriously, place your bets. I've got no idea who'd win.

Gilgamesh wins. Because, as tough as Sephiroth is in Kingdom Hearts, he still looses to a kid in clown shoes, wielding a giant key, and his talking animal sidekicks. He may get a couple of good hits in, but Gil could waste him without much effort.

Sora might be a kid in clown shoes, wielding a giant key, with talking animal sidekicks, but that doesn't change the fact that he's actually a card-carrying bad-ass. He's saved several worlds, been recognised as a true hero by the gods of Olympus, slices Skyscrapers in half and sends them hurtling back at the guy who threw them at him, and so on.

Yet Sephiroth, on two separate occasions, has a gruelling fight with this guy, only to then take on Cloud only a few moments later with no sign of fatigue. Plus, considering how he's all "Only Cloud can defeat me," it's possible he's got something resembling a conceptual defence ala God Hand. Rule: Can only be defeated by Cloud Strife.

 

[MastaofBitches]

Also, Gilgamesh versus Sephiroth. Place your bets.

Seriously, place your bets. I've got no idea who'd win.

Gilgamesh wins. Because, as tough as Sephiroth is in Kingdom Hearts, he still looses to a kid in clown shoes, wielding a giant key, and his talking animal sidekicks. He may get a couple of good hits in, but Gil could waste him without much effort.

Sora might be a kid in clown shoes, wielding a giant key, with talking animal sidekicks, but that doesn't change the fact that he's actually a card-carrying bad-ass. He's saved several worlds, been recognised as a true hero by the gods of Olympus, slices Skyscrapers in half and sends them hurtling back at the guy who threw them at him, and so on.

Yet Sephiroth, on two separate occasions, has a gruelling fight with this guy, only to then take on Cloud only a few moments later with no sign of fatigue. Plus, considering how he's all "Only Cloud can defeat me," it's possible he's got something resembling a conceptual defence ala God Hand. Rule: Can only be defeated by Cloud Strife.

And the first time he fights, and looses, Sora's just a kid, and hasn't done any of that stuff yet. And besides which, Sephiroth is a hell of a lot stronger than any of the Heartless Sora would have fought at that point.

And it's more than likely "Can Only Be Killed" by Cloud Strife, since Sora has defeated him.

 

[Masterly]

The prototype Buster Sword is in his treasury.

And depending on how 'divine' you label Jenova, Gil still has Enkidu.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Also, Gilgamesh versus Sephiroth. Place your bets.

Seriously, place your bets. I've got no idea who'd win.

Gilgamesh wins. Because, as tough as Sephiroth is in Kingdom Hearts, he still looses to a kid in clown shoes, wielding a giant key, and his talking animal sidekicks. He may get a couple of good hits in, but Gil could waste him without much effort.

Sora might be a kid in clown shoes, wielding a giant key, with talking animal sidekicks, but that doesn't change the fact that he's actually a card-carrying bad-ass. He's saved several worlds, been recognised as a true hero by the gods of Olympus, slices Skyscrapers in half and sends them hurtling back at the guy who threw them at him, and so on.

Yet Sephiroth, on two separate occasions, has a gruelling fight with this guy, only to then take on Cloud only a few moments later with no sign of fatigue. Plus, considering how he's all "Only Cloud can defeat me," it's possible he's got something resembling a conceptual defence ala God Hand. Rule: Can only be defeated by Cloud Strife.

And the first time he fights, and looses, Sora's just a kid, and hasn't done any of that stuff yet. And besides which, Sephiroth is a hell of a lot stronger than any of the Heartless Sora would have fought at that point.

And it's more than likely "Can Only Be Killed" by Cloud Strife, since Sora has defeated him.

While it's true that KH1 Sora certainly doesn't appear anywhere as impressive as he does in KH2, due to a lack of feats most frequently shown by reaction commands, KH1 Sora is far from weak.

In order to unlock the Platinum Match in KH1, you need to beat all of the previous cups, and seal the Keyhole in Hollow Bastion. This means that by the time Sora faces Sephiroth, he's fought Jafar the Sorcerer (and Jafar the Genie, but Sora can't hurt him,) Maleficent (as sorceress and as Dragon,) Hades, the Rock Titan, and although I believe you can skip the Gold Match if you want, probably the Ice Titan as well. Not to mention countless mook and elite mook Heartless, and several "Boss" Heartless.

Sephiroth takes on the kid who beat all those guys, and although Sephiroth loses, we don't see him displaying any sign of fatigue or injury. And then he fights Cloud something like a minute later.

And although Sora has defeated Sephy, in KH2, it was more like he just got bored and stopped fighting. "I admit you're very skilled... But apparently, Cloud is the only one who can eliminate me." And then he turns his back on S,D+G. He wasn't even breathing hard. I can't remember if we're shown Sephiroth immediately after beating him in KH1, I think we just see Sora's victory pose, but it's not impossible that Sephiroth just couldn't be bothered after a while and gave up in KH1 as well. I wouldn't actually say that Sora flat-out defeated Sephy to the point where Sephy was exhausted/injured/unable to battle further, but instead the difficult boss battles were more "survive against Sephiroth until he gets bored!"

I probably would have it as "Can Only Be Eliminated by Cloud Strife," though.

Oh, and Sephy can also teleport (or at least bursts of very high-speed movement) right next to you and slash you, which is a massive advantage against Gil, considering how he prefers ranged combat, especially if Gil isn't wearing his armour. And he apparently has doom magic which reduces you to 1 HP. I'll probably have Gil be immune to those, as he doesn't have cure spells.

The prototype Buster Sword is in his treasury.

And depending on how 'divine' you label Jenova, Gil still has Enkidu.

No it isn't. In the Final Fantasy 7-verse, Angeal Hewley's father had it forged for him when he joined SOLDIER. He passed it on to Zack, who passed it on to Cloud.

As for the KH alternate continuity, the past of the FF-crew living in Radiant Garden hadn't been brought up (it was apparently going to be mentioned in BBS, but it was decided it would be too much so they left it out.) Either way, the Buster Sword never resided in Gil's treasury at any point. Neither did Leon's Gunblade, for that matter. Gil only collected all the treasures of his world.

As for Jenova, KH Sephiroth doesn't appear to have anything to do with it. He claims to be the embodiment of Cloud's Darkness.

 

[Masterly]

So would Gil be serious from the outset of the fight or would he be forced into it as the fight progresses?

 

[nixofcyzerra]

So would Gil be serious from the outset of the fight or would he be forced into it as the fight progresses?

Although Gilgamesh's ego is out of control, this weakness is compensated for by the fact that Gil is really good at gauging the strength of an opponent. He saw through Caster's fake death, and could tell how many projections Shirou was preparing. He moved back when Rin contracted with Saber, and according to interviews, "-he would not consider having a battle of swordsmanship with Assassin-."

So he'd sense that Sephiroth's no push-over. He definitely wouldn't enter the fight without his armour on, and he'd try to stay out of Sephy's range.

Then Sephy teleports right next to him and scratches his armour, and Gil gets serious.

 

[MWkillkenny84]

Although Gilgamesh's ego is out of control, this weakness is compensated for by the fact that Gil is really good at gauging the strength of an opponent. He saw through Caster's fake death, and could tell how many projections Shirou was preparing. He moved back when Rin contracted with Saber, and according to interviews, "-he would not consider having a battle of swordsmanship with Assassin-."

So he'd sense that Sephiroth's no push-over. He definitely wouldn't enter the fight without his armour on, and he'd try to stay out of Sephy's range.

Then Sephy teleports right next to him and scratches his armour, and Gil gets serious.

And start an Ultimate Showdown of Destiny.
With the arena as collateral damage.
Even worse if it's the kid version of Gil.
He do less sword-spam and more use of artifacts.