Naruto The Narutoversity
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Legendary Tools (Knyght)
Legendary Tools
Before the age of the Shinobi Sect, the weapons used by men were strictly mundane without any special properties. The first chakra tools that came into existence were the Treasured Tools of the Sage of Six Paths; five objects with unique abilities that he forged with the Creation of all Things to protect humans when he passed on.
Two of his later followers, Masamune and Muramasa, studied these tools and developed techniques that allowed him to create tools and weapons with mystical abilities. But when Masamune saw how his creations were being used, he regretted his naivety in making such powerful tools. His and Muramasa's conflicting ideals on the subject led to a great battle between them that resulted in the death of both and destruction of all their findings so none could learn how to create such weapons anymore.
Some of their creations include:
Kusanagi Sword - One of the toughest swords in existence, the Kusanagi can cut through almost anything and can extend and retract its length at will. Supposedly it was once used to kill an eight-headed snake that was an ancestor to the snakes of Ryuuichi Cave, catapulting it into infamy.
Sword of Totsuka - Also called the Sakegari Longsword, it is spiritual variant of the Kusanagi Sword. It is sheathed in a sake jar; the blade is actually the liquid inside the gourd that is released and shaped, rather than a conventional sword. It is an ethereal weapon with an enchanted blade capable of sealing anything it pierces. Those who are stabbed by the sword are drawn into the jar and trapped in a genjutsu-like "world of drunken dreams" for all eternity.
Yata Mirror - This is an ethereal shield that has no physical form. It is said to be endowed with all nature transformations and as such changes its own characteristics to completely negate any opposition, whether it be spiritual, or physical.
Fuujin and Raijin - Named after the God of Wind and God of Lightning, these are a pair of swords with a solid blade of wind and lightning respectively. They can shift from blade back into the elements themselves to release gales of wind and bolts of electricity. Rather than just elemental chakra, these are true elements that were said be stolen from a raging storm. Senju Tobirama briefly owned the Raijin during the Warring States Era until it was lost in battle.
Before the age of the Shinobi Sect, the weapons used by men were strictly mundane without any special properties. The first chakra tools that came into existence were the Treasured Tools of the Sage of Six Paths; five objects with unique abilities that he forged with the Creation of all Things to protect humans when he passed on.
Two of his later followers, Masamune and Muramasa, studied these tools and developed techniques that allowed him to create tools and weapons with mystical abilities. But when Masamune saw how his creations were being used, he regretted his naivety in making such powerful tools. His and Muramasa's conflicting ideals on the subject led to a great battle between them that resulted in the death of both and destruction of all their findings so none could learn how to create such weapons anymore.
Some of their creations include:
Kusanagi Sword - One of the toughest swords in existence, the Kusanagi can cut through almost anything and can extend and retract its length at will. Supposedly it was once used to kill an eight-headed snake that was an ancestor to the snakes of Ryuuichi Cave, catapulting it into infamy.
Sword of Totsuka - Also called the Sakegari Longsword, it is spiritual variant of the Kusanagi Sword. It is sheathed in a sake jar; the blade is actually the liquid inside the gourd that is released and shaped, rather than a conventional sword. It is an ethereal weapon with an enchanted blade capable of sealing anything it pierces. Those who are stabbed by the sword are drawn into the jar and trapped in a genjutsu-like "world of drunken dreams" for all eternity.
Yata Mirror - This is an ethereal shield that has no physical form. It is said to be endowed with all nature transformations and as such changes its own characteristics to completely negate any opposition, whether it be spiritual, or physical.
Fuujin and Raijin - Named after the God of Wind and God of Lightning, these are a pair of swords with a solid blade of wind and lightning respectively. They can shift from blade back into the elements themselves to release gales of wind and bolts of electricity. Rather than just elemental chakra, these are true elements that were said be stolen from a raging storm. Senju Tobirama briefly owned the Raijin during the Warring States Era until it was lost in battle.
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RE: The Naruversity
I like the idea of the more impressive mystical weapons and armor being created by the Sage's disciples, but I'm not a huge fan of all the knowledge of how to craft them being destroyed long ago. It's so cliched. I would prefer if the knowledge still exists (probably preserved by monks) but virtually no one can actually use it because crafting such incredible artifacts requires some degree of mastery over yin-yang release.
And all the less impressive but weird weapons and equipment we see (like the weapons of the Seven Swordsmen) are probably failed attempts to recreate those legendary artifacts using mundane fuuinjutsu.
I like the idea of the more impressive mystical weapons and armor being created by the Sage's disciples, but I'm not a huge fan of all the knowledge of how to craft them being destroyed long ago. It's so cliched. I would prefer if the knowledge still exists (probably preserved by monks) but virtually no one can actually use it because crafting such incredible artifacts requires some degree of mastery over yin-yang release.
And all the less impressive but weird weapons and equipment we see (like the weapons of the Seven Swordsmen) are probably failed attempts to recreate those legendary artifacts using mundane fuuinjutsu.
RE: The Naruversity
That's the usual story behind it so I find it to be a bit of a bore. Usually accompanied with it having a special connection with the Senju.
And with the Kage Bunshin, Hiraishin and Edo Tensei, I feel like Tobirama's got more than enough creations under his place. The Raijin being his personal creation but being completely absent from every scene he's in is a bit more suspect than if it were a relic he found too. And you'd get fewer questions about it like how he created it, why he didn't create more (for himself or others) and why no-one else has created one or something similar since then.
Not a huge deal overall since there are excuses but it tilts the scale for me. But that's personal preference, of course.
That's the usual story behind it so I find it to be a bit of a bore. Usually accompanied with it having a special connection with the Senju.
And with the Kage Bunshin, Hiraishin and Edo Tensei, I feel like Tobirama's got more than enough creations under his place. The Raijin being his personal creation but being completely absent from every scene he's in is a bit more suspect than if it were a relic he found too. And you'd get fewer questions about it like how he created it, why he didn't create more (for himself or others) and why no-one else has created one or something similar since then.
Not a huge deal overall since there are excuses but it tilts the scale for me. But that's personal preference, of course.
Shadow Clone Training Method (Knyght)
I'll get back to those Legendary Tools...eventually. In the meantime, this was to clear up a misconception that Kakashi and Jiraiya knew about the shadow clone training from the start but never told Naruto, and to outline why no-one had done it before.
Shadow Clone Training Method (Official Version)
This method is to use the shadow clone's memory transfer by having them the same training as the original so that they gain twice the amount of experience. This cuts the total amount of training in half. With a thousand clones, something that takes twenty years to learn could be done within a week. Originally, the closest thing to training that was ever done with the Shadow Clone Jutsu was to have a clone read a scroll or participate in a lesson and send that new knowledge back to the original.
Shadow Clones not only divide the caster's chakra in half for each one but they use chakra to maintain their existence, making it a costly jutsu. The caster and clone would then use up more chakra from their training which could easily cause chakra exhaustion or even death. Recovering that chakra can be time-consuming in itself as well.
It was intended to be used for tricky intelligence gathering such as traversing dangerous terrain and infiltrating enemy stronghold and is only briefly used for combat, so most people don't use it enough for such an idea to come to mind. It is also a B-rank jutsu - a jounin-level technique - which would mean that most who learn it would already be jounin or at that level at the time. This would typically mean that they are past the point where they would need such training.
Kakashi was the first to come up with this training method and that was specifically with Naruto in mind. Naruto had been using shadow clones since he was twelve and was only fifteen/sixteen at the time which is sooner than most, he used it far more often and to greater effect than anyone else, he possessed an immense amount of chakra and could recover his stamina in record time so he could creating more clones and maintain them for far longer without the threat of exhaustion. It is truly a training method made for Naruto.
The only drawbacks were that the accumulated mental stress renders him unconscious, and the frustration of particularly difficult training can leave him or his clones vulnerable to the influence of the Kyuubi.
Shadow Clone Training Method (Official Version)
This method is to use the shadow clone's memory transfer by having them the same training as the original so that they gain twice the amount of experience. This cuts the total amount of training in half. With a thousand clones, something that takes twenty years to learn could be done within a week. Originally, the closest thing to training that was ever done with the Shadow Clone Jutsu was to have a clone read a scroll or participate in a lesson and send that new knowledge back to the original.
Shadow Clones not only divide the caster's chakra in half for each one but they use chakra to maintain their existence, making it a costly jutsu. The caster and clone would then use up more chakra from their training which could easily cause chakra exhaustion or even death. Recovering that chakra can be time-consuming in itself as well.
It was intended to be used for tricky intelligence gathering such as traversing dangerous terrain and infiltrating enemy stronghold and is only briefly used for combat, so most people don't use it enough for such an idea to come to mind. It is also a B-rank jutsu - a jounin-level technique - which would mean that most who learn it would already be jounin or at that level at the time. This would typically mean that they are past the point where they would need such training.
Kakashi was the first to come up with this training method and that was specifically with Naruto in mind. Naruto had been using shadow clones since he was twelve and was only fifteen/sixteen at the time which is sooner than most, he used it far more often and to greater effect than anyone else, he possessed an immense amount of chakra and could recover his stamina in record time so he could creating more clones and maintain them for far longer without the threat of exhaustion. It is truly a training method made for Naruto.
The only drawbacks were that the accumulated mental stress renders him unconscious, and the frustration of particularly difficult training can leave him or his clones vulnerable to the influence of the Kyuubi.
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RE: The Naruversity
Another thing to keep in mind is that shadow clone training the way Naruto did it would be extremely inefficient. Realistically, using twenty clones simultaneously to practice the same jutsu would not actually cause you to become proficient with that jutsu twenty times faster, as most of those clones are going to be doing the same things and learning the same lessons as each other, not building on previous knowledge with each attempt as you would if you'd instead practiced that jutsu twenty times consecutively by yourself. When you dispel those twenty clones most of the memories you get back will be highly redundant.
Instead, the main benefit of using large amounts of shadow clones to practice the same jutsu would be a greatly increased occurrence of those "eureka" moments, where you suddenly figure something important out in a burst of clarity. That particular clone dispels and shares the knowledge with the rest, and the rest continue after incorporating that new knowledge into their training methods. However you would need an very large number of clones to significantly increase your learning speed using this method, and for the few ninja who can even make that many clones and maintain them for more than a few moments the greatly increased downtime needed to rest and recover their chakra would cancel out the benefits. Only Naruto with his near limitless reserves of chakra and near inhuman recovery speed could possibly benefit from this extreme training method.
Another thing to keep in mind is that shadow clone training the way Naruto did it would be extremely inefficient. Realistically, using twenty clones simultaneously to practice the same jutsu would not actually cause you to become proficient with that jutsu twenty times faster, as most of those clones are going to be doing the same things and learning the same lessons as each other, not building on previous knowledge with each attempt as you would if you'd instead practiced that jutsu twenty times consecutively by yourself. When you dispel those twenty clones most of the memories you get back will be highly redundant.
Instead, the main benefit of using large amounts of shadow clones to practice the same jutsu would be a greatly increased occurrence of those "eureka" moments, where you suddenly figure something important out in a burst of clarity. That particular clone dispels and shares the knowledge with the rest, and the rest continue after incorporating that new knowledge into their training methods. However you would need an very large number of clones to significantly increase your learning speed using this method, and for the few ninja who can even make that many clones and maintain them for more than a few moments the greatly increased downtime needed to rest and recover their chakra would cancel out the benefits. Only Naruto with his near limitless reserves of chakra and near inhuman recovery speed could possibly benefit from this extreme training method.
RE: The Naruversity
I understand the logic but what bothers me about that explanation is how it contradicts what Kakashi told us. From what I understand, the shadow clone training is like building up muscle memory. It is training designed to master something through repetition which is the process used for learning jutsu and chakra exercises. Each repetition familiarises the process in mind with each use so that their chakra can more easily respond in that way. Only instead of just learning consecutively, you learn in parallel at same time.
Even if the concept’s theoretical, Kakashi’s highly knowledgeable, experienced and intelligent so I’d expect him to have a better understanding about chakra than most. I feel like he would have used a different example since if it relies on creating a significant number of clones having unconscious epiphanies to progress, the “one clone halves the time, two clones thirds it†example becomes completely invalid. And at no point does Kakashi suggest that Naruto dispel a clone that has progressed further rather than the rest (one of which we see an example of) and he only dispels them all at once.
Maybe it’s not meant to work like that but that appears to be what does happen and in that case, I’d think it’s a part of the nature of chakra that it could function like that. Honestly, the concept of the collective experiences being added together never bothered me that much.
I understand the logic but what bothers me about that explanation is how it contradicts what Kakashi told us. From what I understand, the shadow clone training is like building up muscle memory. It is training designed to master something through repetition which is the process used for learning jutsu and chakra exercises. Each repetition familiarises the process in mind with each use so that their chakra can more easily respond in that way. Only instead of just learning consecutively, you learn in parallel at same time.
Even if the concept’s theoretical, Kakashi’s highly knowledgeable, experienced and intelligent so I’d expect him to have a better understanding about chakra than most. I feel like he would have used a different example since if it relies on creating a significant number of clones having unconscious epiphanies to progress, the “one clone halves the time, two clones thirds it†example becomes completely invalid. And at no point does Kakashi suggest that Naruto dispel a clone that has progressed further rather than the rest (one of which we see an example of) and he only dispels them all at once.
Maybe it’s not meant to work like that but that appears to be what does happen and in that case, I’d think it’s a part of the nature of chakra that it could function like that. Honestly, the concept of the collective experiences being added together never bothered me that much.
RE: The Naruversity
My problem is that if Kage Bunshin training really does work the way Kakashi described it, then it becomes so ridiculously overpowered that it's basically a plothole. If Naruto can gain decades of training experience in days using Kage Bunshin, then why stop at only using it to master wind elemental training and the Rasenshuriken? Why not practice for another week or two and master every element? Why not learn a few thousand jutsu from Kakashi while we're at it? Why not ask Tsunade to borrow the forbidden scroll again and spend an afternoon learning everything in it?
Seriously, imagine if this training method had occurred to Jiraiya and he'd made Naruto train using it for the entire duration of their three year training trip. Naruto would have come back with centuries of ninjutsu and combat experience. He would have been like the second coming of the Sage of Six Paths, he would have been able to annihilate all of Akatsuki simultaneously with his left pinkie finger.
Does that sound reasonable to you? That the only reason Naruto was not a god from the beginning of the time-skip is because Jiraiya didn't have the same epiphany as Kakashi did?
Also that explanation implies that Naruto would have taken decades to create Rasenshuriken if he'd done it the normal way without clones, and frankly I think that's drastically underselling the kid.
My problem is that if Kage Bunshin training really does work the way Kakashi described it, then it becomes so ridiculously overpowered that it's basically a plothole. If Naruto can gain decades of training experience in days using Kage Bunshin, then why stop at only using it to master wind elemental training and the Rasenshuriken? Why not practice for another week or two and master every element? Why not learn a few thousand jutsu from Kakashi while we're at it? Why not ask Tsunade to borrow the forbidden scroll again and spend an afternoon learning everything in it?
Seriously, imagine if this training method had occurred to Jiraiya and he'd made Naruto train using it for the entire duration of their three year training trip. Naruto would have come back with centuries of ninjutsu and combat experience. He would have been like the second coming of the Sage of Six Paths, he would have been able to annihilate all of Akatsuki simultaneously with his left pinkie finger.
Does that sound reasonable to you? That the only reason Naruto was not a god from the beginning of the time-skip is because Jiraiya didn't have the same epiphany as Kakashi did?
Also that explanation implies that Naruto would have taken decades to create Rasenshuriken if he'd done it the normal way without clones, and frankly I think that's drastically underselling the kid.
RE: The Naruversity
Which is pretty much why it never makes another appearance.
Kishimoto used it to push Naruto's skills forward and introduce the memory clone trick then swept it under the rug. The only time Naruto uses shadows clones for training again is with Sage Mode where it appears very briefly. He could only use a couple because of the danger and he immediately gave up on that to dive into the toad oil pool.
The main reason I even thought about this entry was because I was thinking about changes I'd make to the series and realised that the shadow clone training was completely redundant. Naruto could have learned wind nature transformation training during the time skip and started or progressed with the Rasenshuriken during Part 2, so the training wouldn't have been at all necessary.
I think Kishimoto realised the potential problems and once the arc was done, he avoided drawing attention to it.
But to be fair, and perhaps grant an in-universe explanation, Naruto never really needed the training after creating the Rasenshuriken. Once he defeated Kakuzu, I think he was satisfied. The time he could spend learning and mastering new jutsu could equally be used to refine and build upon his existing skills, and so he didn't go out of his way to work his way through countless other jutsu.
For instance, he could have gone out of his way to master the other nature transformations for elemental Rasengans, but it's unlikely that he'd be in a situation where he'd need another one as opposed to just using the Rasenshuriken. He may have also been wary of inflicting different types of self-injury from its usage on top of the original damage.
The Rasenshuriken was also incomplete so he could have focused on perfecting that, though he didn't actually achieve it until he mastered senjutsu. Even if he'd been trying to master it since the Hidan and Kakuzu Arc - when not participating by in the Itachi Pursuit Mission which I think went on for some time - the difficulty in achieving that mastery may have consuming all his attention during training.
There's also the difficulty in implementation. Mastering dozens of different jutsu would mean figuring out how to adapt his fighting style to implement, as well as remembering these jutsu in combat and knowing which jutsu to use and when. In some respects, the more jutsu he learns then the more difficult that becomes. Even someone like Kakashi falls back on a limited selection because they're the ones he needs. And that kind of training wouldn't quite be solved by using shadow clones.
A thousand jutsu wouldn't necessarily stop Itachi or Kisame or Pain from kicking his ass either.
I think many kinjutsu require more than the usual hand-seals and chakra moulding to learn so there's a foundation of knowledge you'd need to pull it off. Not to mention how you wouldn't want one person to have a load of kinjutsu. Especially when most are borderline suicidal, self-harming, unethical or cause fundamental changes to the body.
The explanation was more to sell the difficulty rather than undersell Naruto, though I'd just thought it as a broad example to highlight his meaning rather than a reference to the Rasenshuriken. Minato and Kakashi (and possibly Jiraiya) never achieved it after all and they are practically the genius characters of the series so it'd be an understandable point to make regardless. And Naruto only pulled it off by using a shadow clone after the "looking both eyes simultaneously" epiphany which perhaps implies that it isn't even possible without such a method, or so difficult it might as well be. Kyuubi Chakra Mode, notwithstanding.
tl;dr Naruto probably felt more comfortable with focusing on what he had instead of reaching out for a number of additional skills and jutsu. For all that people call him jutsu-happy, he rarely seeks out more jutsu than what's offered to him.
Which is pretty much why it never makes another appearance.
Kishimoto used it to push Naruto's skills forward and introduce the memory clone trick then swept it under the rug. The only time Naruto uses shadows clones for training again is with Sage Mode where it appears very briefly. He could only use a couple because of the danger and he immediately gave up on that to dive into the toad oil pool.
The main reason I even thought about this entry was because I was thinking about changes I'd make to the series and realised that the shadow clone training was completely redundant. Naruto could have learned wind nature transformation training during the time skip and started or progressed with the Rasenshuriken during Part 2, so the training wouldn't have been at all necessary.
I think Kishimoto realised the potential problems and once the arc was done, he avoided drawing attention to it.
But to be fair, and perhaps grant an in-universe explanation, Naruto never really needed the training after creating the Rasenshuriken. Once he defeated Kakuzu, I think he was satisfied. The time he could spend learning and mastering new jutsu could equally be used to refine and build upon his existing skills, and so he didn't go out of his way to work his way through countless other jutsu.
For instance, he could have gone out of his way to master the other nature transformations for elemental Rasengans, but it's unlikely that he'd be in a situation where he'd need another one as opposed to just using the Rasenshuriken. He may have also been wary of inflicting different types of self-injury from its usage on top of the original damage.
The Rasenshuriken was also incomplete so he could have focused on perfecting that, though he didn't actually achieve it until he mastered senjutsu. Even if he'd been trying to master it since the Hidan and Kakuzu Arc - when not participating by in the Itachi Pursuit Mission which I think went on for some time - the difficulty in achieving that mastery may have consuming all his attention during training.
There's also the difficulty in implementation. Mastering dozens of different jutsu would mean figuring out how to adapt his fighting style to implement, as well as remembering these jutsu in combat and knowing which jutsu to use and when. In some respects, the more jutsu he learns then the more difficult that becomes. Even someone like Kakashi falls back on a limited selection because they're the ones he needs. And that kind of training wouldn't quite be solved by using shadow clones.
A thousand jutsu wouldn't necessarily stop Itachi or Kisame or Pain from kicking his ass either.
I think many kinjutsu require more than the usual hand-seals and chakra moulding to learn so there's a foundation of knowledge you'd need to pull it off. Not to mention how you wouldn't want one person to have a load of kinjutsu. Especially when most are borderline suicidal, self-harming, unethical or cause fundamental changes to the body.
The explanation was more to sell the difficulty rather than undersell Naruto, though I'd just thought it as a broad example to highlight his meaning rather than a reference to the Rasenshuriken. Minato and Kakashi (and possibly Jiraiya) never achieved it after all and they are practically the genius characters of the series so it'd be an understandable point to make regardless. And Naruto only pulled it off by using a shadow clone after the "looking both eyes simultaneously" epiphany which perhaps implies that it isn't even possible without such a method, or so difficult it might as well be. Kyuubi Chakra Mode, notwithstanding.
tl;dr Naruto probably felt more comfortable with focusing on what he had instead of reaching out for a number of additional skills and jutsu. For all that people call him jutsu-happy, he rarely seeks out more jutsu than what's offered to him.
RE: The Naruversity
Eh, you can jump through a million hoops to try and justify why Naruto never uses or abuses the Kage Bunshin training method again if you really want. Personally I'd rather just retcon how it works to the 'hundreds of guys having unconscious epiphanies" explanation, which is similar enough that to the canon explanation that it doesn't clash badly and isn't nearly as stupidly overpowered and exploitable, so it doesn't strain my suspension of disbelief so much that it is never used again. The Kage Bunshin training method really is one of the dumber plot devices in this manga.
Eh, you can jump through a million hoops to try and justify why Naruto never uses or abuses the Kage Bunshin training method again if you really want. Personally I'd rather just retcon how it works to the 'hundreds of guys having unconscious epiphanies" explanation, which is similar enough that to the canon explanation that it doesn't clash badly and isn't nearly as stupidly overpowered and exploitable, so it doesn't strain my suspension of disbelief so much that it is never used again. The Kage Bunshin training method really is one of the dumber plot devices in this manga.
RE: The Naruversity
I wouldn't say it's a dumb plot device though. But it was definitely poorly used and open up the question of why Jiraiya never used this method to skyrocket Naruto's training.
But since Naruto was apparently supposed to be weaker than Sasuke at that time, it would've been stretching the suspension of disbelief if Sasuke was still stronger than him despite all of this.
So maybe if Kishi used it at a more opportune time it would've made more sense, like during the training trip, but it's just one of the many plot holes I guess.
I wouldn't say it's a dumb plot device though. But it was definitely poorly used and open up the question of why Jiraiya never used this method to skyrocket Naruto's training.
But since Naruto was apparently supposed to be weaker than Sasuke at that time, it would've been stretching the suspension of disbelief if Sasuke was still stronger than him despite all of this.
So maybe if Kishi used it at a more opportune time it would've made more sense, like during the training trip, but it's just one of the many plot holes I guess.
RE: The Naruversity
To be honest, I think it was a dumb idea too. :huh.:
The problem it's meant to resolve - Naruto needing a quick means of improvement because of insufficient training - shouldn't have been one in the first place, and creates (or exacerbates) the issue of why Jiraiya never came up with the idea himself, whether Naruto wouldn't have been better off staying in Konoha, why he almost never uses it again etc.
I'm not sure introducing it earlier would have been much better. For example, if the memory trick was revealed at the end of Part 1 and Jiraiya mentioned that he'd created a training method for Naruto to use with it, how high would our expectations be for when he returns? We'd probably end up severely disappointed, more so than many of us were. Or if it were introduced sometime during the timeskip, it might feel cheap when we discover that Naruto found the ultimate cheat sheet off screen. [Edit: Unless you change the mechanics of it perhaps, like in the way Altered Nova suggests or if Naruto has to use a small number of clones when training like this because of accumulated mental stress, chakra cost and/or Kurama.]
Like I said, this came up after I was thinking about changes to the series and realised that the shadow clone training was a pointless plot device. You lose nothing by removing it from the series. Not to sound arrogant but I've even got a scenario in mind for how things could have been handled without it:
Naruto returns from the training trip having mastered wind nature transformation and the Rasengan. He's been trying to use the Wind Release Rasengan one-handed but the jutsu has several issues; it's hard to sustain, unstable and tears his arm up every time he uses it. Post-Sasuke, he works on mastering it and after numerous failures, he realizes that instead of obstinately doing things alone (like Sasuke) he needs to get back to basics. So he whips out a shadow clone to share the load and hey ho, he's finally creates the Wind Release Rasenshuriken. Which he later throws in Kakuzu's face.
That'd be the gist of it.
And if I were to introduce it like in canon, I'd certainly do more with it than Kishimoto has. I wouldn't go the "learn a thousand jutsu" route but by the time Pain invades, Naruto would probably have all five nature transformations and a Rasengan to go with each. Even if I can come up with half a dozen reasons for why Naruto didn't take it any further, he really really should have. But I still don't think that would be a huge improvement over canon.
Ah well.
(Damn, I'm a wordy bastard.)
To be honest, I think it was a dumb idea too. :huh.:
The problem it's meant to resolve - Naruto needing a quick means of improvement because of insufficient training - shouldn't have been one in the first place, and creates (or exacerbates) the issue of why Jiraiya never came up with the idea himself, whether Naruto wouldn't have been better off staying in Konoha, why he almost never uses it again etc.
I'm not sure introducing it earlier would have been much better. For example, if the memory trick was revealed at the end of Part 1 and Jiraiya mentioned that he'd created a training method for Naruto to use with it, how high would our expectations be for when he returns? We'd probably end up severely disappointed, more so than many of us were. Or if it were introduced sometime during the timeskip, it might feel cheap when we discover that Naruto found the ultimate cheat sheet off screen. [Edit: Unless you change the mechanics of it perhaps, like in the way Altered Nova suggests or if Naruto has to use a small number of clones when training like this because of accumulated mental stress, chakra cost and/or Kurama.]
Like I said, this came up after I was thinking about changes to the series and realised that the shadow clone training was a pointless plot device. You lose nothing by removing it from the series. Not to sound arrogant but I've even got a scenario in mind for how things could have been handled without it:
Naruto returns from the training trip having mastered wind nature transformation and the Rasengan. He's been trying to use the Wind Release Rasengan one-handed but the jutsu has several issues; it's hard to sustain, unstable and tears his arm up every time he uses it. Post-Sasuke, he works on mastering it and after numerous failures, he realizes that instead of obstinately doing things alone (like Sasuke) he needs to get back to basics. So he whips out a shadow clone to share the load and hey ho, he's finally creates the Wind Release Rasenshuriken. Which he later throws in Kakuzu's face.
That'd be the gist of it.
And if I were to introduce it like in canon, I'd certainly do more with it than Kishimoto has. I wouldn't go the "learn a thousand jutsu" route but by the time Pain invades, Naruto would probably have all five nature transformations and a Rasengan to go with each. Even if I can come up with half a dozen reasons for why Naruto didn't take it any further, he really really should have. But I still don't think that would be a huge improvement over canon.
Ah well.
(Damn, I'm a wordy bastard.)
RE: The Naruversity
What he said. Also why exactly was it necessary to make Naruto a gibbering idiot who somehow never realized that his clones return memories to him and who can't understand why that would be useful for training without a long, detailed explanation? That was completely unnecessary. Kishimoto could have had it go down like this instead:
Kakashi: "I know I can't use Kage Bunshin as well as you can but I know the effect it has on the user. You've used it constantly, so you've probably noticed..."
Naruto: "Huh? Are you talking about how I can remember things that my clones do?"
Kakashi: "Yes, that's right. Anything a Kage Bunshin learns or experiences goes back to the original body. So we're going to have you make as many clones as possible to train alongside you. That should cut down the time needed to learn how to manipulate the nature of your chakra significantly."
Naruto: "...You can do that?! Oh!! That's a great plan! Why didn't I ever think of that?"
Bam, same information gets across, things are explained just as well for the reader, but Naruto doesn't look nearly as retarded.
What he said. Also why exactly was it necessary to make Naruto a gibbering idiot who somehow never realized that his clones return memories to him and who can't understand why that would be useful for training without a long, detailed explanation? That was completely unnecessary. Kishimoto could have had it go down like this instead:
Kakashi: "I know I can't use Kage Bunshin as well as you can but I know the effect it has on the user. You've used it constantly, so you've probably noticed..."
Naruto: "Huh? Are you talking about how I can remember things that my clones do?"
Kakashi: "Yes, that's right. Anything a Kage Bunshin learns or experiences goes back to the original body. So we're going to have you make as many clones as possible to train alongside you. That should cut down the time needed to learn how to manipulate the nature of your chakra significantly."
Naruto: "...You can do that?! Oh!! That's a great plan! Why didn't I ever think of that?"
Bam, same information gets across, things are explained just as well for the reader, but Naruto doesn't look nearly as retarded.
RE: The Naruversity
I personally see no problem with how it is in canon, no reason for this "if too many he has problems" limitations.
As was pointed before, it was Kakashi's creation, created exclusivelly for Naruto. Kakashi had the time and the info to know how many KB Naruto could create (no one was present during Naruto's Snake Escape in the Forest of Death, and only Naruto and Gaara when they fought, so the only person who saw how many KB Naruto can really use is Iruka... and Mizune, but since he was defeated with it... The point it, everyone but Kakashi would think he is exagerating, and Jiraiya would be even more irresponsible than the "throw Naruto down a ravine" if he left him just throw KB around to see how many he can use before passing out).
About he not using it after learning of the method... I have no idea where you guys got it from. He uses it to learn his wind element, then uses it to create Rasenshuriken, then uses it to try to find a way to not burst his arm when using it. I remember clearly he using it during the Oil Sage Training. After that, his next training was in using Kurama's power, where B explicitly told him he couldn't use KB while using it because Kurama would eat his own chakra much faster.
Or are you guys thinking that instead of concentrating on his missions he should had left clones behind to learn more and more different things?
Well, before Sage Mode letting him he was probably focused on mastering his one original technique, then after it he has to limit how many KB he uses when on SM (I think his initial limit was five?), meaning he would be in problem if there was a battle where he needed SM and there were clones around training.
Knight said Naruto should have mastered all five elements, but the elemental training wasn't for him to become Avatar the Last Airbender, but for him to create his own technique, which he was able to do but not master safely.
Reminder, despite what Tobirama makes it look like we are officially told technique creating isn't easy when Minato took three years to create the Rasengan.
I personally see no problem with how it is in canon, no reason for this "if too many he has problems" limitations.
As was pointed before, it was Kakashi's creation, created exclusivelly for Naruto. Kakashi had the time and the info to know how many KB Naruto could create (no one was present during Naruto's Snake Escape in the Forest of Death, and only Naruto and Gaara when they fought, so the only person who saw how many KB Naruto can really use is Iruka... and Mizune, but since he was defeated with it... The point it, everyone but Kakashi would think he is exagerating, and Jiraiya would be even more irresponsible than the "throw Naruto down a ravine" if he left him just throw KB around to see how many he can use before passing out).
About he not using it after learning of the method... I have no idea where you guys got it from. He uses it to learn his wind element, then uses it to create Rasenshuriken, then uses it to try to find a way to not burst his arm when using it. I remember clearly he using it during the Oil Sage Training. After that, his next training was in using Kurama's power, where B explicitly told him he couldn't use KB while using it because Kurama would eat his own chakra much faster.
Or are you guys thinking that instead of concentrating on his missions he should had left clones behind to learn more and more different things?
Well, before Sage Mode letting him he was probably focused on mastering his one original technique, then after it he has to limit how many KB he uses when on SM (I think his initial limit was five?), meaning he would be in problem if there was a battle where he needed SM and there were clones around training.
Knight said Naruto should have mastered all five elements, but the elemental training wasn't for him to become Avatar the Last Airbender, but for him to create his own technique, which he was able to do but not master safely.
Reminder, despite what Tobirama makes it look like we are officially told technique creating isn't easy when Minato took three years to create the Rasengan.
RE: The Naruversity
Huh. I'd never even thought of that.
To be clear, I specifically meant if the shadow clone training had been introduced Part 1. Because technically Naruto would be capable of practicing with hundreds of shadow clones per day for over two years which is crazy amount of experience. Introduced in Part 2, it's not as big a deal.
I actually get annoyed when writers nerf the shadow clone training like that in their fanfiction anyway.
Jiraiya spent over two years on the road with Naruto to train. He should actually know him and what he can do far better than Kakashi by the end of it. It just reflects a bit badly on him, especially coupled with the varied opinions of Naruto's training.
Jiraiya not having the epiphany doesn't bother me personally but I can see why it could be an issue.
I did mention all that. Though the time he used to during the senjutsu training Naruto only tried it very briefly and then jumped into the pool, IIRC. It didn't make any difference then.
It's not that he didn't use it after learning, we know he did, it's that could have used a lot more than he did. Only he doesn't and we're not exactly given a reason why.
Somewhat. Not during missions but between missions. It's hard to keep track of time in Naruto but it feels like days and weeks often go by between events. So you'd think there'd be a mention of Naruto's continuing his training between missions but the topic doesn't come up at all until he starts learning senjutsu.
Just saying that Naruto had been using to try and complete the Rasenshuriken ever since the Kakuzu fight would have been enough. You'd at least have an excuse to address the issue then.
I already mentioned that Naruto wouldn't need to master the other nature transformations. But I think it'd would have made sense that he did. Jounin know at least two nature transformations, he would still be able to learn it in record time (it took him only two days to master wind nature transformation says the databook) and it'd mean he'd have a range of different Rasengan. And he'd basically be repeating what he learned for the Rasenshuriken but with a different element, only this time he'd know to use another shadow clone from the start.
But as I said, if we'd been told that he'd been working on the Rasenshuriken the whole time, it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Do we know how long he'd been working on that before he went to fight Kakuzu?
Huh. I'd never even thought of that.
To be clear, I specifically meant if the shadow clone training had been introduced Part 1. Because technically Naruto would be capable of practicing with hundreds of shadow clones per day for over two years which is crazy amount of experience. Introduced in Part 2, it's not as big a deal.
I actually get annoyed when writers nerf the shadow clone training like that in their fanfiction anyway.
Jiraiya spent over two years on the road with Naruto to train. He should actually know him and what he can do far better than Kakashi by the end of it. It just reflects a bit badly on him, especially coupled with the varied opinions of Naruto's training.
Jiraiya not having the epiphany doesn't bother me personally but I can see why it could be an issue.
I did mention all that. Though the time he used to during the senjutsu training Naruto only tried it very briefly and then jumped into the pool, IIRC. It didn't make any difference then.
It's not that he didn't use it after learning, we know he did, it's that could have used a lot more than he did. Only he doesn't and we're not exactly given a reason why.
Somewhat. Not during missions but between missions. It's hard to keep track of time in Naruto but it feels like days and weeks often go by between events. So you'd think there'd be a mention of Naruto's continuing his training between missions but the topic doesn't come up at all until he starts learning senjutsu.
Just saying that Naruto had been using to try and complete the Rasenshuriken ever since the Kakuzu fight would have been enough. You'd at least have an excuse to address the issue then.
I already mentioned that Naruto wouldn't need to master the other nature transformations. But I think it'd would have made sense that he did. Jounin know at least two nature transformations, he would still be able to learn it in record time (it took him only two days to master wind nature transformation says the databook) and it'd mean he'd have a range of different Rasengan. And he'd basically be repeating what he learned for the Rasenshuriken but with a different element, only this time he'd know to use another shadow clone from the start.
But as I said, if we'd been told that he'd been working on the Rasenshuriken the whole time, it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Do we know how long he'd been working on that before he went to fight Kakuzu?
RE: The Naruversity
We know that a lot of time has passed off-screen in part two of this manga, as Kurenai went through a pregnancy and gave birth to a child, and Naruto noted recently that his seventeenth birthday was tomorrow. So at least nine months have passed, but adding up all the events depicted in the manga can't possibly fill in that timeline. So Naruto has probably had at least a couple of months of total downtown where he could have been abusing Kage Bunshin training relentlessly but didn't.
Unfortunately the manga rarely makes it clear exactly when it's skipping forward, so it's really hard to say exactly how much time he had between any major arcs. He could have been working on the rasenshuriken for a few days or a few weeks, we just don't know.
(My theory is that he spent most of that unseen and largely unmentioned downtime hanging out with the other Konoha 11, as that explains why they all act like close comrades despite the manga almost never showing Naruto actually bonding with any of them.)
We know that a lot of time has passed off-screen in part two of this manga, as Kurenai went through a pregnancy and gave birth to a child, and Naruto noted recently that his seventeenth birthday was tomorrow. So at least nine months have passed, but adding up all the events depicted in the manga can't possibly fill in that timeline. So Naruto has probably had at least a couple of months of total downtown where he could have been abusing Kage Bunshin training relentlessly but didn't.
Unfortunately the manga rarely makes it clear exactly when it's skipping forward, so it's really hard to say exactly how much time he had between any major arcs. He could have been working on the rasenshuriken for a few days or a few weeks, we just don't know.
(My theory is that he spent most of that unseen and largely unmentioned downtime hanging out with the other Konoha 11, as that explains why they all act like close comrades despite the manga almost never showing Naruto actually bonding with any of them.)
RE: The Naruversity
Let's remember Naruto needs Yamato to use the Kage Bunshin training, to avoid problems with Kurama.
Yamato is a jÅnin, so most likely busy.
Also, little time appears to pass between Kakuzu and Pain, and after Pain, Yamato would be even more busy.
Also, Naruto isn't obsessed with amassing powers, he seems to prefer getting better at what he know
Let's remember Naruto needs Yamato to use the Kage Bunshin training, to avoid problems with Kurama.
Yamato is a jÅnin, so most likely busy.
Also, little time appears to pass between Kakuzu and Pain, and after Pain, Yamato would be even more busy.
Also, Naruto isn't obsessed with amassing powers, he seems to prefer getting better at what he know
RE: The Naruversity
Yamato's absence would likely limit the training but he's not an absolute necessity. Naruto even trained through the night with shadow clones on the second step while Yamato was sleeping.
It was only when he fruitlessly tried to add wind chakra to the Rasengan that the Kyuubi really became an issue. [Edit:And then stopped being an issue when he added another shadow clone to the mix.]
I think there was a decent chunk of time between those arcs. Orochimaru's failed ritual, the acquisition of Team Hawk, the tracking of Itachi, the assaults on numerous Akatsuki hideouts, the battle with Deidara and finally the confrontation with Itachi. Kurenai goes from flat to visibly pregnant too, IIRC, which suggest a few months have passed.
I agree with the last part anyway. It's just a bit of a waste.
Yamato's absence would likely limit the training but he's not an absolute necessity. Naruto even trained through the night with shadow clones on the second step while Yamato was sleeping.
It was only when he fruitlessly tried to add wind chakra to the Rasengan that the Kyuubi really became an issue. [Edit:And then stopped being an issue when he added another shadow clone to the mix.]
I think there was a decent chunk of time between those arcs. Orochimaru's failed ritual, the acquisition of Team Hawk, the tracking of Itachi, the assaults on numerous Akatsuki hideouts, the battle with Deidara and finally the confrontation with Itachi. Kurenai goes from flat to visibly pregnant too, IIRC, which suggest a few months have passed.
I agree with the last part anyway. It's just a bit of a waste.
RE: The Naruversity
I think that the nature of the memory-returning aspect of the shadow clone jutsu is different than most people think, and that's why people get annoyed at this.
My head-canon has it that when a Shadow Clone disperses, Naruto doesn't suddenly relive the clone's experiences, but the information gets placed directly into his short or long-term memory, and is only brought to Naruto's conscious mind when triggered.
So it would work like this:
instead of like this:
So if I made a clone and made it go read a book on common Spanish phrases, when it dispelled I wouldn't relive the clone's experiences, but if the next day someone asked me "Hey, how do you ask where the bathroom is is Spanish?," I'd realise that I knew the answer, and the neural connections between memories would cause me to "remember" that I read a book on the subject yesterday.
Of course, a clone's violent dispersal, or a clone dispelling right on front of his eyes, might immediately trigger Naruto's awareness.
edit:knight504, your initial post on the Shadow Clones mentions that the jutsu equally divides the caster’s chakra, which isn't entirely accurate. It's more like each clone is given equal access to the user's chakra.
I think that the nature of the memory-returning aspect of the shadow clone jutsu is different than most people think, and that's why people get annoyed at this.
My head-canon has it that when a Shadow Clone disperses, Naruto doesn't suddenly relive the clone's experiences, but the information gets placed directly into his short or long-term memory, and is only brought to Naruto's conscious mind when triggered.
So it would work like this:
instead of like this:
So if I made a clone and made it go read a book on common Spanish phrases, when it dispelled I wouldn't relive the clone's experiences, but if the next day someone asked me "Hey, how do you ask where the bathroom is is Spanish?," I'd realise that I knew the answer, and the neural connections between memories would cause me to "remember" that I read a book on the subject yesterday.
Of course, a clone's violent dispersal, or a clone dispelling right on front of his eyes, might immediately trigger Naruto's awareness.
edit:knight504, your initial post on the Shadow Clones mentions that the jutsu equally divides the caster’s chakra, which isn't entirely accurate. It's more like each clone is given equal access to the user's chakra.
RE: The Naruversity
So basically, before Kakashi explicitly brought it to his attention, Naruto never consciously attempted to recall a clone's memories. And even if he did ever unconsciously recall a clone's memories, he typically only ever summoned clones to do roughly the same thing he himself was doing at the time, i.e. fighting an opponent, creating a rasengen. He'd never actually ordered a clone to go somewhere else outside his field of view and do something completely different independently until Kakashi told him to send their clones to the woods where they played Rock-Paper-Scissors, so the clone memories never stood out enough from his own that he could confidently say "wait a minute, I never did that."
If he was reminded of it then maybe he would have thought it was weird that he could remember attacking Kimimaro from so many different angles, but he's kind of dumb so he probably would have just assumed that he must have circled around Kimimaro more than he remembered.
Actually it seems to do both. Each clone requires an initial investment of chakra simply to create, which is why they are able to return chakra to the user when dispelled. But they also seem to be able to draw chakra directly from the user's stamina reserves without the user's input, which is why the jutsu is so dangerous to use - a shadow clone can easily kill you by draining the last of your chakra without you even realizing it.
So basically, before Kakashi explicitly brought it to his attention, Naruto never consciously attempted to recall a clone's memories. And even if he did ever unconsciously recall a clone's memories, he typically only ever summoned clones to do roughly the same thing he himself was doing at the time, i.e. fighting an opponent, creating a rasengen. He'd never actually ordered a clone to go somewhere else outside his field of view and do something completely different independently until Kakashi told him to send their clones to the woods where they played Rock-Paper-Scissors, so the clone memories never stood out enough from his own that he could confidently say "wait a minute, I never did that."
If he was reminded of it then maybe he would have thought it was weird that he could remember attacking Kimimaro from so many different angles, but he's kind of dumb so he probably would have just assumed that he must have circled around Kimimaro more than he remembered.
Actually it seems to do both. Each clone requires an initial investment of chakra simply to create, which is why they are able to return chakra to the user when dispelled. But they also seem to be able to draw chakra directly from the user's stamina reserves without the user's input, which is why the jutsu is so dangerous to use - a shadow clone can easily kill you by draining the last of your chakra without you even realizing it.
RE: The Naruversity
Well, it's literally described as an equal division by Neji and Kakashi.
Other than that, we know that the chakra and experience of a dispelled clone returns to the original and his other clones, the clone's chakra resonates with the original's and there's apparently a constant drain to maintain since Kakashi "can't maintain it for long" and didn't expect Naruto to pull it off for more than a few second back during the bell test. Not sure what you mean, nixo.
The viz translation of the memory trick describes it as "whatever all your clones have experience is deposited/logged in your own bank". To which Naruto responds that he'd just been making shadow clones randomly before so he'd never noticed. I guess that jives with the non-conscious recall.
Well, it's literally described as an equal division by Neji and Kakashi.
Other than that, we know that the chakra and experience of a dispelled clone returns to the original and his other clones, the clone's chakra resonates with the original's and there's apparently a constant drain to maintain since Kakashi "can't maintain it for long" and didn't expect Naruto to pull it off for more than a few second back during the bell test. Not sure what you mean, nixo.
The viz translation of the memory trick describes it as "whatever all your clones have experience is deposited/logged in your own bank". To which Naruto responds that he'd just been making shadow clones randomly before so he'd never noticed. I guess that jives with the non-conscious recall.
RE: The Naruversity
The problem with that is that we also know that it's not really possible to "evenly divide all of one's chakra."
Ninja don't have giant tanks of chakra filling their bodies from which all their jutsu draw from. The majority of any ninja's "chakra reserves" at any given time is actually stored in the form of raw spiritual energy and their physical stamina, and only a bare minimum of chakra needed to support bodily functions is kept in their chakra coils. Ninja generally mold extra chakra on the fly as they need it in order to power their jutsu.
This is why it's possible to hide from chakra sensors by not molding chakra at all, and why it's possible for ninja like the Fourth Raikage to "power up" DBZ style by molding massive amounts of chakra in a short period of time.
So unless the Kage Bunshin jutsu also forcibly converts all of the user's non-vital stamina to chakra and divides it among the clones, then it can't really be evenly dividing the user's chakra. (and if they did that they wouldn't be so dangerous to use as it would be impossible to exhaust all of your chakra with them) Instead it seems to be that all the clones are somehow still linked to the original's stamina and can draw out their chakra as if it were their own. This is functionally the same as evenly dividing the chakra as unless each clone stands around doing nothing while only the original fights then you'll still be burning through your chakra by a multiplier equal to the number of clones you created plus one. (i.e., create three clones who all fight all out, and you run out of chakra four times as fast as they are all drawing from the same stamina reserve as you.) To an outside observer like Neji, it would appear that each clone is the source of their own chakra because of this link, so it would be impossible to tell the clones from the real body. This would also explain why each clone can somehow still draw out the Kyuubi's chakra, they are each linked to the seal in the same way as they are linked to Naruto's stamina and can use it as if they were the real Naruto.
The problem with that is that we also know that it's not really possible to "evenly divide all of one's chakra."
Ninja don't have giant tanks of chakra filling their bodies from which all their jutsu draw from. The majority of any ninja's "chakra reserves" at any given time is actually stored in the form of raw spiritual energy and their physical stamina, and only a bare minimum of chakra needed to support bodily functions is kept in their chakra coils. Ninja generally mold extra chakra on the fly as they need it in order to power their jutsu.
This is why it's possible to hide from chakra sensors by not molding chakra at all, and why it's possible for ninja like the Fourth Raikage to "power up" DBZ style by molding massive amounts of chakra in a short period of time.
So unless the Kage Bunshin jutsu also forcibly converts all of the user's non-vital stamina to chakra and divides it among the clones, then it can't really be evenly dividing the user's chakra. (and if they did that they wouldn't be so dangerous to use as it would be impossible to exhaust all of your chakra with them) Instead it seems to be that all the clones are somehow still linked to the original's stamina and can draw out their chakra as if it were their own. This is functionally the same as evenly dividing the chakra as unless each clone stands around doing nothing while only the original fights then you'll still be burning through your chakra by a multiplier equal to the number of clones you created plus one. (i.e., create three clones who all fight all out, and you run out of chakra four times as fast as they are all drawing from the same stamina reserve as you.) To an outside observer like Neji, it would appear that each clone is the source of their own chakra because of this link, so it would be impossible to tell the clones from the real body. This would also explain why each clone can somehow still draw out the Kyuubi's chakra, they are each linked to the seal in the same way as they are linked to Naruto's stamina and can use it as if they were the real Naruto.
RE: The Naruversity
Wouldn't it make more sense "dividing chakra evenly" is then just a way of saying "dividing physical and spiritual energy"? So it refers to the total sum of energies in their body being divided. Something similar occurs when Yoroi's chakra absorption was explained sucking out an opponent's physical and spiritual energy.
Wouldn't it make more sense "dividing chakra evenly" is then just a way of saying "dividing physical and spiritual energy"? So it refers to the total sum of energies in their body being divided. Something similar occurs when Yoroi's chakra absorption was explained sucking out an opponent's physical and spiritual energy.