Naruto The Narutoversity

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

Even a natural genius still has to specialize. You can't be a master of everything no matter how smart you are.

And Lee probably will eventually try again with ninjutsu and genjutsu. He's only 16 now and he's already become so powerful with taijutsu with only half a decade of hardcore training at it. Eventually he'll reach a plateau with his physical ability and find training his body has become less effective. I bet that once he becomes a Jounin he'll branch out a bit into other ninja arts just like his sensei.

 

[AJ_Katon]

RE: The Naruversity

Plus it seems smarter to upgrade what you actually can do than something that seems impossible at the moment. Lee may have been sucky at fighting but he can still train to punch and kick and spin people around as he pile drives them to the ground and get better at a slightly quicker pace.

Since Lee can't use shape or nature, can he use those basic 3 like Kawamiri?

 

[ankokudaishogun]

RE: The Naruversity

Lee's aim is to show you can become a great shinobi only with Taijutsu.
He'll have all time in the world to become proficient in Genjutsu and Ninjutsu once promoted to Jōnin(which basically is the official Acknowledgement of Awesome).

 

[AJ_Katon]

RE: The Naruversity

Too bad the manga's ending with him dreaming of Youthful dreams.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

Since Lee can't use shape or nature, can he use those basic 3 like Kawamiri?

The fact that he graduated the academy would imply that he can. Most likely he spent his academy years struggling to learn those three jutsu and barely learned anything else, which is why he graduated at the bottom of his class.

Also at one point very early in the Chuunin Exam, Lee was pretending to be weak and looked really beat up, but then he dropped the act because he wanted to ask Sakura to be his girlfriend. (This was right after Sasuke noticed he was using chakra to reinforce his arms when blocking a kick.) Sasuke commented to himself about how Lee's injuries had suddenly vanished. Most likely Lee used a henge to fake those injuries in the first place.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

I'm less sure after Gai's backstory. If exceptions can be made to enter the academy without ninjutsu or genjutsu, it's less unbelievable to me for someone to be able to graduate without them as well. It matches Gai's emphasis on Lee "practising his below average taijutsu like crazy" that led into the team being congratulated for becoming genin. He could have learned everything but ninjutsu and genjutsu which are the most important, like how Sasuke was Rookie of the Year even though he wasn't the top student.

I'm more open to the idea that he might have pulled it off without even one of the basic ninjutsu, if not completely sold on it for various reasons.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

But why would they let Lee graduate without ninjutsu and genjutsu? It's not like he had anything else going for him, even his taijutsu sucked when he graduated. He didn't become good at that until he spent a year training with Gai. And he graduated during a long period of peace, so it's not like the village was hurting for new genin either. I mean what, did they feel bad for him because he tried so hard even though he barely got results and all his peers made fun of him? Was he pity graduated?

Really the only way I could see Lee having graduated without learning the three basic ninjutsu is if Gai pulled a bunch of favors so the instructors would bend the rules for him. And that kind of cheating seems out of character for Gai.

It makes more sense to me to assume that Lee can use the three basic ninjutsu, but he's just barely competent enough to pull them off to bare-minimum standard in a controlled classroom, and even that is straining his chakra control and shape transformation to it's limit. Using them effectively in a live combat situation is just out of the question for him.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

He sucked during his early days at the academy and his taijutsu greatly improved in his time as a genin, but that is not the same as saying that his taijutsu sucked when he graduated. Gai implies the opposite in that Lee's single-minded focus on his taijutsu paid off in the end. There's already a precedent for entrance and, potentially, graduation in the rather impressive specimen that is Maito Gai. And the fact that it's peace-time could be even more of an incentive because it wouldn't be nearly as hazardous as in war-time.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

RE: The Naruversity

Also, the will to work hard regardless is taken as a good trait: a lousy shinobi who always does his best is somebody you can trust.
At very worst, the Academy thought they were going to have a trustworthy "eternal genin", perfect for relatively menial but possibly security sensible jobs, like dealing with the mission archive, delivering messages not important enough to use ANBU but too important for random genin while keeping chunin free to do other missions

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

The Mysteries of the Senju Clan Revealed!

Senju. Literally translates as "A Thousand Hands," or "A Thousands Skills."

Decended from the Rikudō Sennin's youngest son, the Senju Clan was known and feared throughout the Elemental Nations for their prodigious ability in all of the Shinobi arts. But what was the source of their incredible talent, and, given their great might, why did they vanish, leaving only one individual who still bears their name, Senju Tsunade? The answer to both these questions lies in the unspoken of, passive trait that all those descended from Ōtsutsuki Hagoromo possess to some degree.

It is a fundamental fact of the Shinobi world that no one Ninja can excel at every Shinobi discipline. Only a scarce handful of Ninja have mastered all five basic Nature Transformations, and none of them can claim to be amongst the very best at other Shinobi disciplines such as tracking or Puppetry. Therefore, the concept of Shinobi specialising in a few disciplines and working as a team to maximise their strengths and cover their weaknesses pre-dates the era of Hidden Villages. However, both Indra's descendants, the Uchiha, and Asura's descendants, the Senju, have an advantage over other Shinobi when it comes to specialisation: their Chakra easily adapts to their fighting style and technique use.

The Uchiha

Aside from their powerful Dōjutsu, the Uchiha Clan were also famed for their skill with Katon Jutsu. This is not only due to a clan member's individual talent and aptitude, but generations upon generations of Uchiha utilising Katon techniques causing Uchiha Chakra to become more and more efficient at being converted into Fire-natured Chakra, and able to reach higher and higher temperatures.

The pinnacle of this specialisation is demonstrated by the Mangekyo Sharingan technique Amaterasu, a Ninjutsu that uses the highest level of Fire Release, a level that simply cannot be reached by Shinobi who lack this level of specialisation. A similar level of specialisation was demonstrated by the 3rd Raikage, a man descended from generations upon generations of powerful Raiton users, and Darui, a bearer of the Storm Release Kekkai Genkai, who were both capable of using the highest level of Lightning Release: "Black Lightning." Uchiha Sasuke was also capable of using something akin to Black Lightning after being granted the Six Paths Yin Power, and while the Flapping Chidori he used during his first battle with Uzumaki Naruto at the Valley of the End also appeared to be black in colour, this was a result of his Curse Seal of Heaven, and not the highest level of Lightning Transformation.

Incidentally, while it is currently unknown if any Shinobi has demonstrated "Black" Water, Earth or Wind Ninjutsu, it has been theorised that the Hydrification Technique of the Hōzuki clan could be linked in some way to the absolute pinnacle of Water Transformation.

The Senju

In contrast to the Uchiha, who specialised in Genjutsu due to their strong spiritual energy, Shurikenjutsu due to the Sharingan's tracking ability, and Katon Jutsu, the Senju Clan did not choose to limit themselves by having the entire clan focus on the same few disciplines, but chose to allow each individual member to find the path that best suited them. While this would not normally be viable or practical for a Shinobi clan, the Senju's adaptable Chakra allowed this to be possible.

Senju Hashirama, aside from his unique Wood Release, also mastered all five basic Nature Transformations along with Yin and Yang Release, and mastered Medical Ninjutsu to the point where he could heal most injuries in moments, without using hand-seals, as well as a multitude of other skills.

Senju Tobirama also mastered all five basic Nature Transformations along with Yin and Yang Release, but of all his elemental capabilities, Tobirama was most well-known for his legendary mastery of Water Release, and his usage of Space-Time Ninjutsu and dangerous Kinjutsu.

Senju Tōka would become renowned throughout the world for her prowess with Genjutsu.

Senju Tsunade is a unique case and perfect example of the adaptable Chakra of the Six Paths Clans. She developed Chakra Enhanced Strength, a technique where the user uses their knowledge of the human body to focus an exceptionally large quantity of Chakra into their hands and feet using precise Chakra control, and then release it with pinpoint timing, which greatly enhances their strength. However, Tsunade's strength differs from her student, Haruno Sakura's. Years of utilising the Chakra Enhanced Strength technique has caused Tsunade's Chakra to adapt to it, granting her incredible raw strength even without use of the actual technique, to the point where she is capable of crushing stones in a single hand with nothing but pure muscle power. This raw strength is later increased to monstrous levels when Tsunade actually uses Chakra Enhanced Strength, allowing her to perform feats like lifting and swinging Gamabunta's tantō.

The Uzumaki can also be included as a demonstration of the properties of adaptive Chakra. The Uzumaki Clan was founded more than a century before Senju Hashirama was born, when the founder, a member of the Senju clan who excelled at Fuinjutsu, caused a rift within the Senju Clan due to no longer being able to stand the constant warfare. Lacking both Hashirama's power and his vision, the man who would come to found the Uzumaki Clan (and his immediate family and followers) instead chose to abandon the battlefield and travel, to find a peaceful place to call home. Their wandering eventually led them to the Land of Whirlpools, where the founder took the name Uzumaki and founded Uzushiogakure.

The Shinobi of the newly-founded Uzushiogakure, and especially the Uzumaki Clan, would continue to specialise in Fuinjutsu, which over time would influence the Chakra of the Uzumaki Clan. Eventually Uzumaki Chakra adapted to the point where it began to take on the properties of sealing "out-of-control power to restore order" and "confining, annulling, or stopping the target from using a specific skill" itself, even without Fuinjutsu being used. This allowed for the possibility of some clan members to manifest Adamantine Chains that could be used to physically restrain targets, as well as directly attack them. Unfortunately, this "Special Chakra" also made the Uzumaki Clan extremely well-suited for becoming Jinchuuriki, and they were targeted because of this.

Uzumaki Naruto has also demonstrated the ability to adapt Chakra, albeit consciously, able to synchronise and transmit Kurama's Chakra to each member of the entire Shinobi Alliance

The Fate of the Senju

ÅŒtsutsuki Indra held the philosophy that power was the ultimate key to peace, while his brother Asura held the philosophy that love was the ultimate key to peace. It is therefore somewhat fitting that the Uchiha Clan would elect to preserve their bloodline by having their members marry within the clan, to maintain their bloodline's power, while Asura's transmigrant Senju Hashirama would encourage his clan to intermarry with the citizens and clans of Konoha. While there were those who preferred to maintain their current marriage traditions, such as the Hyuga who also intermarried to preserve their bloodline (and unknowingly, their inheritance of ÅŒtsutsuki Hamura's power,) many love matches between Senju members resulted in various watered-down versions of the Senju's bloodline inheritence being passed down.

A significant portion of the population of Konoha are slightly stronger and hardier than the norm in other nations. Combined with the philosophy of the Will of Fire, the Shinobi of Konoha are amongst the strongest in the world. Konoha is also known for producing many more S-Class Shinobi compared to other nations. This is also in part due to the adaptability of their Chakra, though individual talent and hard work are still the primary reasons for their strength.

Both generations of the Formation Ino–Shika–Chō have Senju blood in their ancestry, and have inherited a degree of their adaptable Chakra. Nara Shikaku and Shikamaru both displayed an unprecedented affinity for their Hiden Jutsu, as did Yamanaka Inoichi and Ino. The 15th and 16th heads of the Akimichi Clan, Chōza and his son Chōji, on the other hand not only inherited a degree of the Senju's adaptable Chakra, but also a degree of their potent Physical Energy. This is most evident in Chōji, who's usage of Yang Release is so strong that he can utilise Butterfly Chōji Mode.

While he did not inherit their potent life force of the Senju, Hatake Sakumo also inherited a shadow of their strong Physical Energy, and thus their potential superior Yang Release techniques. Having mastered the Quality Control of intentionally imbalancing one's Chakra to be predominantly Yang, otherwise known as Yang Release, Sakumo acquired a tantō comprised of a metal that could be infused with Yang-predominant Chakra through Chakra flow. Using the White Light Chakra Sabre, Sakumo became known as Konoha's White Fang. Unfortunately, Sakumo's son, Kakashi, did not inherit any of the Senju Physical Energy and the blade that in his father's hands could have stood up to the Sword of Kusanagi was shattered.

The Uzumaki, being somewhat isolated in Uzushiogakure, did not disperse as the Senju did, but as they did adopt some outsiders into their clan through marriage, they did not reach the levels of the Uchiha or Hyuga. Uzumaki Naruto, being the son of Uzumaki Kushina, a scion of a clan that can be considered Senju that specialised in Fuinjutsu, and Namikaze Minato, a man who also had Senju in his family tree, received the entirety of Asura's inheritance.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

RE: The Naruversity

mastered Medical Ninjutsu to the point where he could heal most injuries in moments, without using hand-seals,

Still thinking that was at least in part because Wood Release: Yamato did show something similar when he did push out Sasuke's swrod from his body, though IIRC he did need a hand-seal(but Yamato himself did admit his Mokuton is a pale shade of Hashirama's)

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

Having been genetically altered to match Hahshirama's DNA, Yamato was also granted the legendary shinobi's ability to heal nearly any wound, without the need for hand seals

Huh. Fair enough.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

Adaptable chakra. That's a pretty clever bit of fanon there, fits in very well with the Senju's "clan of a thousand skills" reputation. I also like how you used that fanon to explain both why the Senju apparently disappeared and why Konoha has so many S-rank ninja, they disbanded any married into many other clans and now most of the ninja of Konoha are distantly related to the Senju and have inherited a degree of their potent chakra. Excellent theory, good work!

[edit] About Hashirama's healing ability. Could he only heal his own wounds without needing handseals or could he heal other people too? Was it Mokuton based self-regeneration, or genuine skill with medical ninjutsu, or a bit of both?

 

[thecuiy]

RE: The Naruversity

wait is this fanon or canon? I'm confused

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

The point of this thread is to post fanon theories that explain canon ideas in more detail and are as compliant with canon facts as possible. We are basically trying to fill in all the holes the databooks missed without directly contradicting anything from the source material.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

Nixofcyzerra's theory on when Indra and Ashura migrated to Sasuke and Naruto.

Right. So we know that strictly speaking Sasuke and Naruto aren't direct reincarnations of Indra and Ashura (spelt with an "H" to differentiate from the Asura Path of the Rinnegan,) as otherwise Madara and Hashirama wouldn't have been able to be revived with Edo Tensei, as their souls would have been reborn and not residing in the Pure World.

Instead, the souls of Indra and Ashura migrate (hence the Viz term "transmigrant") and take up residence in Shinobi who share their ideals, influencing and possibly strengthening their minds and chakra. The question is: When did Indra and Ashura take up residence within Sasuke and Naruto?

Figuring out Indra and Sasuke is relatively simple: In chapter 460, Karin senses a change in Sasuke's chakra since his fight with Killer Bee:

and during Naruto's conversation with Hagoromo, we learn that Naruto sensed Indra's presence within Sasuke during their clash at the Samurai bridge, even if he didn't know exactly what it was. If I had to guess, I'd say Indra migrated to Sasuke right after Sasuke decided to go to the 5 Kage Summit and kill them all. Although it wasn't really expanded on very much at the time, this decision may have been at least partially motivated by Sasuke desiring a revolution (i.e, using power as a key to peace,) which he would expand on almost 250 chapters later (having had conversations with Edo Itachi and Edo Hashirama in the interim which seemed to blunt his hatred somewhat.)


As to when Ashura migrated to Naruto, that's a little trickier. My first instinct was to say that it would have been around the time that Naruto rose above the cycle of revenge by not giving into his anger/hatred and choosing to spare Nagato, but on later reflection, Naruto wasn't really demonstrating Ashura's ideals here. Ashura believed that love and cooperation was the key to peace. However, at the climax of the Pain arc, Naruto certainly wanted peace and to carry on Jiraiya's will to help create a world where people would truly understand one another, but he didn't really have any idea of how to go about it. Naruto admits to Nagato that he doesn't know how to find peace, but is determined enough to find a way that his conviction sways Nagato into putting his faith in him.

My best guess as to when Ashura migrated to Naruto would be just after his first conversation with Kushina's chakra echo/ghost/horcrux:

There are two and a half/three reasons for why I think this. The first is that this is the first time we really see "the power of love" in action in the manga. While Hinata confessed her feelings to Naruto earlier in the manga, it was a confession of romantic love, which, (when the recipient of the question in question isn't some poorly written character who realises that amazingly they too had loved the confessor all along) can be quite confusing and conflicting when you don't really know the other person well enough to return their feelings.* Naruto's transformations into 6-tailed and 8-tailed Version 2 forms were more born out of despair than love having turned to rage/hate.

Kushina's declaration, on the other hand, was an example of less confusing, unconditional parental love, that affected Naruto enough that he was able to completely overwhelm Kurama's hateful will (which was seemingly augmented by by his Negative Emotion Sensing, judging by this page. This example of love would have given a new level of understanding of the emotion to Naruto (who's not exactly had an abundance of it in the past) and while we don't read Naruto reflecting on his ideals/will having evolved to mirror Ashura's, the way he talks about Kurama here and to him here certainly indicates that he understands The Power of Love.

All right I admit it, that last one was just for fun.


The second reason that I think Ashura's transmigration happened at this point is the Torii Seal. It came out of nowhere (I figured Naruto would just shut the Eight Trigrams Seal again,) the only other person we've seen use Torii Seals is Hashirama (another transmigrant of Ashura,) with his Sage Art: Gate of the Great God, and when the Torii appeared, Kuruma was surprised and reacted like so:

So I figure that Naruto was initially just going to rebuild and close the Eight Trigrams Seal, but, having been "possessed" by Ashura, instinctively upgraded to/used the Torii Seal instead. Kurama obviously either associates Torii with the Rikudo Sennin, or sensed chakra that was associated with Hagoromo, ie., Ashura's. And if it was the latter, you'd think he would have been less surprised if Ashura's chakra had been inhabiting Naruto for a while, considering that Kurama was completely aware of Dark Naruto's existence, and considered him the real Naruto.

There is one potential problem with the theory for this reason, however, and that's Minato's chakra mode. Would he be able to enter KCM if he still had an Eight Trigrams Seal himself? Or does he have a Torii Seal too? Minato doesn't have anything to do with Ashura.


The third reason I think that Ashura hadn't transmigrated to Naruto until that point was Naruto's reaction to sensing Indra within Sasuke. Naruto was convinced that despite having learnt Senjutsu and the fact that Sasuke was exhausted, he wouldn't have been able to beat him if they had fought. So apparently Indra was enough of an advantage to outweigh Naruto's Sage Mode and Sasuke's own exhaustion. But throughout the ages the two "brother-hosts" have always seemed fairly even. So if Naruto had Ashura at this point, then Naruto should still have had the advantage.

There may be a slight problem with the evidence supporting my reasoning here, though, depending on the translation of the manga. In chapter 671, we see Naruto flashback to this scene in chapter 488:

Where the implication seems to be that Sasuke has something within him, something dangerous. But in the last panel of chapter 671's flashback to that scene, we have this minor difference that changes the entire meaning:

That "too" implies that Naruto had already sensed Ashura within himself before he sensed Indra within Sasuke. I guess it depends on which translation is more accurate, or if both are and it's a minor retcon.

As for Naruto being convinced that they would both die, perhaps he somehow sensed on some level that he would soon become the next host for Ashura's chakra, or maybe he just wasn't going to back down from their game of "Ninja Chicken."

*Plus Naruto apparently thought Hinata meant she loved him as a comrade. Yeesh.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

RE: The Naruversity

There is also Karin sensing something "exactly like...!" in Naruto that lends weight to Ashura having already possessed Naruto at that point.
I'd go and say Naruto was already possessed, and therefore able to sense Indora inside Sasuke, but wasn't yet able to access the power of Ashura, which would explain Kurama's shock.

I'd even say Sasuke got possessed by Indora since he chose to leave the village at earliest, but didn't get his power until the Kage Summit.
I also suspect Ashura did possess Naruto mostly as reaction to Indora possessing Sasuke than anything else: Naruto might actually have shown less teamwork\bonds-make-strong than Sasuke.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

There is also Karin sensing something "exactly like...!" in Naruto that lends weight to Ashura having already possessed Naruto at that point.
I'd go and say Naruto was already possessed, and therefore able to sense Indora inside Sasuke, but wasn't yet able to access the power of Ashura, which would explain Kurama's shock.

...Ashura's basically a proto-ninja hippie. I doubt his chakra would feel evil. Most likely she could sense Kurama and thought that it felt like Bee and Gyūki's.

I'd even say Sasuke got possessed by Indora since he chose to leave the village at earliest, but didn't get his power until the Kage Summit.
I also suspect Ashura did possess Naruto mostly as reaction to Indora possessing Sasuke than anything else: Naruto might actually have shown less teamwork\bonds-make-strong than Sasuke.

I very much doubt that Sasuke was possessed that early. At that point Sasuke wanted power to kill Itachi. He had no interest in any form of "peace."

I'd say that Sasuke prior to Itachi's second mind-flay probably showed about as much/equal teamwork\bonds-make-strong as Naruto (Haku-"My body moved on its own" vs. Naruto pushing himself to the limit to beat Gaara out of desire to protect his precious people.)

 

[ankokudaishogun]

RE: The Naruversity

The main problem is, we know shit on the basis for possession.
Sasuke wasn't really in a "Revolution" mood at the Kage Summit. He didn't care for peace at all at that point.
Then again, he had a Straight Tomoe Mangekyō which Madara said was a mark of "looking for something beyond the desperation".
I don't think he was looking for "peace" until ZombItachi and the ZombieKage.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

Then why did he say "The five Kages are the problem," and "We'll go to that meeting and kill the Kages?"

Why did he even want to kill them? Why wasn't he just after Danzo? Danzo was his primary target, sure, but it certainly seemed like he wanted to kill all of them even then.

And I thought that Straight Tomoe was just another way of talking about the Eternal Mangekyo, as Madara's the only other one with an EMS.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

RE: The Naruversity

Uh, I don't remember he said that. Care to share the pages? I only remember him saying opposite things to Tobito(kill the Leaf) and Hawk(Kill only the Elders)

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

 

[ankokudaishogun]

RE: The Naruversity

Completely forgot about that.
Well, I wonder what was his original plan for peace

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

Right. So we know that strictly speaking Sasuke and Naruto aren't direct reincarnations of Indra and Ashura (spelt with an "H" to differentiate from the Asura Path of the Rinnegan,) as otherwise Madara and Hashirama wouldn't have been able to be revived with Edo Tensei, as their souls would have been reborn and not residing in the Pure World.

Are we sure this is how reincarnation works in the Narutoverse? I mean, Ang was able to converse with his prior incarnations and even visit them in the spirit world. They were the same person, but they were also separate individuals with their own memories. So I wouldn't say that being reincarnated necessarily prevents someone from also being resurrected.

 

[atlas_hugged]

RE: The Naruversity

Right. So we know that strictly speaking Sasuke and Naruto aren't direct reincarnations of Indra and Ashura (spelt with an "H" to differentiate from the Asura Path of the Rinnegan,) as otherwise Madara and Hashirama wouldn't have been able to be revived with Edo Tensei, as their souls would have been reborn and not residing in the Pure World.

Are we sure this is how reincarnation works in the Narutoverse? I mean, Ang was able to converse with his prior incarnations and even visit them in the spirit world. They were the same person, but they were also separate individuals with their own memories. So I wouldn't say that being reincarnated necessarily prevents someone from also being resurrected.

I think you're basically saying the same thing if you boil it down. He's saying that at the least we know that Naruto/Sasuke aren't the same individuals/souls as their progenitors. They're more like the avatar style of reincarnation: heirs to a legacy with some metaphysical/magical ramifications. If you're big on ES lore, think mantling almost.