Naruto The Narutoversity

Altered Nova · Jan 5, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Well there was also the time he accidentally obliterated most of a water tower during his rooftop battle with Sasuke. That's all I can think of think of right now.

Edit: So I found this really weird scene where Naruto hits Deva Path with a regular rasengan and it just violently pushes him away without an explosion or causing any visible external damage to his body. I'm not really sure what to make of that.

nixofcyzerra · Jan 5, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Altered Nova said:

Wasn't that just a greater expression of the same principles that burst the water balloons? It destabilised again, and the ensuing part of the "typhoon" that was released added so many rotations to the water that the water tower burst like a metal balloon.

Hmm... Well, even without taking into account the momentum:

Naruto's actually pretty strong:

http://i.imgur.com/GUzhp.jpg]/img]

He also did have a lot of momentum when he hit the Deva Path:

[img]http://i25.mangapanda.com/naruto/442/naruto-8872.jpg

So I guess that could be it, but maybe also Naruto let most of the "typhoon" out to fling the Deva Path away? And it was hitting that big rock hard enough to shatter it that did him in? Maybe half the bones in the Dava Path's body were broken.

Edit:

Altered Nova · Jan 5, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Against that ex-Chuunin thug, I assumed Jiraiya just stopped forming the Rasengan at the second step (the one that carved a large spiral pattern into the tree) because he didn't want to murder the guy. If he'd fully formed it but then let it destabilize, it would have had a much larger wind blast and probably still would have killed him.

It looks Naruto did the same thing to Deva Path, hit him with an incomplete step 2 Rasengan, because it has the same result of sending the victim flying backwards while spinning around but without a large wind blast or grievous injury. So it was mostly impact that killed him rather than the Rasengan itself. But why would Naruto hold back against Deva Path like that? Why not use a proper Rasengan and shred his torso to bits?

nixofcyzerra · Jan 5, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

*shrugs* He was worried the black chakra rods would get destroyed, and he needed one to stab himself with so he could find Nagato's real body?

Or maybe his control just slipped. It was the climax of the fight.

Knyght · Jan 5, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

I assumed this is just the result of using the Rasengan on a Rinnegan-powered corpse instead of a living shinobi. I'd sooner believe that Kishimoto just forgot to add the grind marks that show up than Naruto holding back on that blow.

While the Rasengan typically tears apart and blows up inanimate objects, I just don't think it's meant to have the same effect on living beings. It grinds into them, fucks up their insides and sends them flying (or straight into the ground). We don't get to see that swirling orb of destruction probably because of the effort it would take to draw each time and it makes that first proper use all the more dramatic. And the way the Rasengan is drawn has changed over the series as well.

And I'll just throw in the original entry for the Rasengan:

nixofcyzerra · Jan 5, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

You could be right, knight504. Say, what do you think about my theory that Minato's Rasengan, the Rasengan Naruto's using towards the end of the war, and the Big Ball Rasengan are all the same technique?

ankokudaishogun · Jan 5, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Rotation, Power and Compression: using them together represents the highest lever of Shape Manipulation.
The Rasengan(èžºæ—‹ä¸¸, Spiralling Sphere) is a jutsu created by the Fourth Hokage using said principles: powerful spiralling chakra is compressed in a spheric shape.
Said sphere has quite the penetrating capacity, but its real power is revealed when the highly compressed chakra whirlpool is suddenly freed on the enemy's body, resulting in a rotating explosion.
The size of the Rasengan is proportional to the chakra used for it.

Naruto(and Jiraiya) did develop a number of variations:

ÅŒdama Rasengan(å¤§çŽ‰èžºæ—‹ä¸¸, Big Ball Spiralling Sphere) is a Rasengan variation where the Chakra is compressed to a even higher ratio than in a normal Rasengan: it uses more chakra than a normal Rasengan of the same size, resulting therefore more powerful.

ÅŒdama Rasentairengan(å¤§çŽ‰èžºæ—‹å¸¯é€£ä¸¸, Big Ball Spiralling Chained Belt Sphere) is using many ÅŒdama Rasengan to form a defensive wall from enemy attacks

SenpÅ: ChÅÅdama Rasengan(ä»™æ³•ãƒ»è¶…å¤§çŽ‰èžºæ—‹ä¸¸, Sage Art: Super Big Ball Spiralling Sphere) is a ÅŒdama Rasengan made using Senjutsu Chakra. Because Senjutsu Chakra is so powerful, its size had to be expanded many times compared to a Rasengan or ÅŒdama Rasengan with the same amount of normal Chakra.
Jiraiya doesn't use the "SenpÅ" prefix, but it's the same technique.

SenpÅ: ChÅÅdama Rasentarengan(ä»™æ³•ãƒ»è¶…å¤§çŽ‰èžºæ—‹å¤šé€£ä¸¸, Sage Art: Super Big Ball Spiralling Mass Chained Spheres) is using many SenpÅ ChÅÅdama Rasengan to attack an enemy.

Rasenrengan(èžºæ—‹é€£ä¸¸, Spiralling Chained Spheres) is a variation on the use of the Rasengan: by using two Rasengan with opposite rotations at the same time, the damages inflicted to the enemy is elevated by many times.

Wakusei Rasengan(æƒ‘æ˜Ÿèžºæ—‹ä¸¸, Planetary Spiralling Spheres) is the direct upgrade of the Rasenrengan: by using 4 Rasengan with different rotations, the damage inflicted rises exponentially.

RasenkyÅ«gan(èžºæ—‹å¸ä¸¸, Spiralling Absorbing Sphere) is grinding many enemies' face to a single Rasengan using the Chakra Limbs from Kurama Chakra Mode

Rasenrangan(èžºæ—‹ä¹±ä¸¸, Spiralling Wild Spheres) is using the Chakra Limbs to hit many enemies at the same time with a Rasengan for each limb

SenpÅ: Jiton Rasengan(ä»™æ³•ãƒ»ç£éèžºæ—‹ä¸¸, Sage Art: Magnet Release Spiralling Sphere) made with Shukaku's chakra, it has a Sealing effect.

Some source

nixofcyzerra · Jan 6, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Fair enough, but there's still a contradiction there. Rasengan is supposedly the highest level of Shape Manipulation. Compressing Chakra is an aspect of Shape Manipulation. ÅŒdama Rasengan involves a greater level of compression than the highest level of Shape Manipulation.

The only way I can think to resolve this contradiction is if Minato's Rasengan was the highest level of Shape Manipulation, but the version Kakashi knew and Jiraiya taught Naruto was slightly inferior, resulting in Naruto rediscovering Minato's Original Rasengan over the time-skip and mislabelling it as a Big Ball variant. And the fact that Minato's and Late-SWW4 Naruto's Rasengan are larger than Jiraiya's and Kakashi's and the same size as the ÅŒdama Rasengan seems to support my theory.

*shrugs* It's what makes the most sense to me. If anyone has a better theory to explain this, then fire away.

ankokudaishogun · Jan 6, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

I'm going with "Highest level of Shape Manipulation"=="Using Rotation, Power and Compression at the same time".
The actual proportion of the three isn't really important: Naruto is still using the three principles at the same time.

Also, I still believe that Rasengan just becomes bigger the more chakra is used but ÅŒdama is specifically more COMPRESSED chakra. Also, late 4thWar Naruto's ÅŒdama is MUCH bigger.

nixofcyzerra · Jan 6, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

ankokudaishogun said:

Wait, so you're saying that Naruto used both more power and more compression, but less rotation in the ÅŒdama? That doesn't sound right to me.

And can you post a link or an image of late SWW4 Naruto's ÅŒdama?

ankokudaishogun · Jan 6, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

No, I'm saying he used more Chakra(which in this istance might or might not be synonimous with more Power) and more Compression, while keeping the same spin.

Viceversa, the Rasenrengan is Naruto improving the Rotation part, by having two Rasengans going in specular motion.

For Late War ÅŒdama, look at the lower right of this

And note they are _NORMAL_ ÅŒdama, no Senjutsu Powered.

nixofcyzerra · Jan 6, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

ankokudaishogun said:

But more compression would be better Shape manipulation, which should be impossible, as the Rasengan's supposed to be as good as it gets.

And Naruto wouldn't be improving the Rotation aspect of the Rasenrengan, he'd be performing the regular Rotation (and power and compression) in one hand, while performing an inverted/symmetrical but still equal Rotation in the other.

That's like saying that Kiba's Fang Passing Fang would be improved if he span in a clockwise direction while Akamaru span in a anti-clockwise direction. Maybe the technique would do more damage due to the opposing rotations, but it wouldn't be any harder to do or learn.

Is that when Kurama first gave Naruto a bit more chakra, when Madara first showed off his shiny new Wood Release?

Yeah, it is. Chapter 561. First use of the ÅŒdama Rasen Tairengan (Big Ball Spiralling Serial Zone Spheres.) I can't decide whether that's support for my theory as well or not, seeing as if the Big Ball Rasengan had stayed the same size, then obviously my theory would be total BS.

I don't think that the power step is simply adding more chakra, it's increasing the density of the rotating chakra so there's more force, enough to break a thicker substance than water, a rubber ball.

ankokudaishogun · Jan 6, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

As I said, I think the whole emphasis on the highest level shape manipulation should be because he's doing _THREE_ kinds of Shape Manipulation at the same time.
It's the sum of the parts that make Rasengan that hard, once Naruto got it down tweaking it doesn't really make it much harder... it likely become more a matter of Chakra Control than Shape Manipulation

nixofcyzerra · Jan 6, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

So you're saying that there are many different types of Shape Transformation, with Rotation, Power/Force and Compression being three of many, and the Rasengan is considered the utmost limit of ST because it uses three types, which is the most anyone can do?

That's... actually a really good theory, but I don't know, what other types of Shape Transformation could there be? Can you think of a Jutsu that could hypothetically use another type? Because most of the Jutsu I can think of could fall under the umbrella of "Compression." Take the Water Dragon Bullet, for example. That's just using compression to compress/contain water in the shape of a dragon's head.

ankokudaishogun · Jan 6, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

I think Shape Manipulation can be summed in three Principles: Form, Containment and Push

Chakra-emission type ninjutsu use them in various degree:

Katon GÅkakyÅ« no jutsu is basic Form(sphere) and Push(duh).
The various Dragon Bullets need a higher degree of Form manipulation: both the silhouette of the dragon and the fact it can be moved around. They also need a much greater Push because of their sheer mass. Containment is low-level, most to keep it together
Viceversa, Danzou's ShinkÅ«gyoku is basic Form with higher grade Push and Containment, as the bullets have to maintain their shape

In the Rasengan's case, they are Rotation, Power and Compression: the Form has the user keep moving the chakra around relentlessly, the Push has the user keep a stable strong chakra flux and Containment has the user keep the miniature chakra storm from dispersing.

nixofcyzerra · Jan 6, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

OK. So what jutsu have higher form, containment or push than Rasengan? What jutsu surpass Rasengan in any Shape aspect, aside from Rasengan derivatives?

ankokudaishogun · Jan 6, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Hard to say. I'd guess multi-target\multi-extension jutsu like Laser Circus

Knyght · Jan 6, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

ankokudaishogun said:

You translate that page yourself, ankoku? You mind if I add it to the fourth databook thread? Well, and on NF since I ended up a member a couple months ago and have been helping collect translations.

Edit: I expect that there are a number of different kinds of shape transformations. For instance, a different kind of shape based on each hand-seal excluding the theoretical elemental hand-seals. Each hand-seal causes chakra to transform in a certain way and by using a sequence of hand-seals, it layers those transformations on top of each other to create different and increasingly complex effects.

And I figure that the Rasengan is still considered the height of shape transformation because the Big Ball Rasengan is literally just more of the same. It may be compressing it to a higher density but you're not actually doing anything that wasn't being done before, it's just taken to a more extreme degree.

nixofcyzerra · Jan 6, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

I'll admit it ankokudaishogun, you've done it again. Once again you've made me stop and seriosuly reflect upon/reconsider my opinions about aspects of Ninjutsu.

That said, I'm not sure you're correct, or at least you're going to have to provide another example to convince me, as I don't think Laser Circus cuts it.

I mean, at first I thought that Laser Circus had decent Containment (enough to keep the energy from dispersing,) but exceptional Push (as the lasers are damn fast) and Form (because altering the laser's direction after being shot is practically unheard of for Ninjutsu. I mean, can you think of any other Lightning Jutsu that can do something like that? Even Kakashi's Lightning Beast Tracking Fang moves almost completely linearly.)

Then I remembered that Laser Circus was a Storm Release technique, an advanced nature that combines Lightning and water.

Lightning Release involves converting chakra to take on the properties of electricity. It doesn't cover the magnetic aspect of electromagnetism (hence Magnet Release) but Lightning Release techniques do have Electricity's property of "take the path of least resistance" (although it would be more technically accurate to say that "the current through the high-resistance path can be extremely "negligible.") That's why Lighting Jutsu are still conducted by water (although as pure water does not conduct electricity, there must still be contaminants/electrolytes in Water Release techniques.)

Man, I am really getting my nerd on in this post.

Anyway, my theory is that Storm Release consists of swapping out Lightning Release's "take the path of least resistance" property for Water Release's "flow like water" property.

Thus Laser Circus wouldn't need exceptional Form, as manipulating the direction of the attack would be like putting a bend in the "chakra pipe" containment that surrounds the laser and the "flow like water" property would do the rest.

knight504 said:

But surely taking an aspect of Shape Transformation to a "more extreme degree" would involve better Shape Transformation. Before coming up with my Minato's Rasengan=Big Ball Rasengan idea, I assumed the Rasengan involved the highest possible number of rotations, the highest possible density of the chakra in said rotations, and the highest possible level of compression.

Knyght · Jan 6, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Technically it is but it's at the point where it's an argument of semantics rather than a decisive difference. It's still, fundamentally, a Rasengan created from the same three steps. I think ankoku hit it on the nose by saying that the important thing is that it's using three different principles of shape transformation simultaneously and that the proportion of them doesn't really matter.

nixofcyzerra · Jan 6, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Hmm. OK, so why were Minato's and Late SWW4 Naruto's Rasengan bigger? Is it just a matter of using more chakra? Then what made Naruto suddenly decide to use more chakra in his Rasengan?

Oh! Maybe it's a matter of Chakra Control! Naruto's still moulding the same amount of chakra, but he's wasting so little that the Rasengan is now recieving almost 100% of the chakra he moulds. That implies that it's not that Kakashi and Jiraiya weren't using the highest level of Shape Transformation, but that Naruto's chakra control has surpassed both Jiraiya's and Kakashi's and now rivals Minato's.

Unfortunately, he still probably can't build-up very small quantities of chakra, meaning that despite having awesome Yang, he probably still wouldn't be able to use most Medical Jutsu without over-saturating the patient's cells.

nixofcyzerra said:

Well, that turned out to be a bold-faced lie.

ankokudaishogun · Jan 6, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Yeah, pretty much I'm going with the difference being Chakra Control.
Also, both Jiraiya and Kakashi not bothering with making the best Rasengan as possible when they were simply showing off.

I translated it, but it's mostly a summary not an actual translation. I'm reasonably sure I haven't misunderstood anything but I wouldn't feel comfortable using them as translations.
If you want to use them, just make sure to notify they aren't 1:1 translations.

Knyght · Jan 6, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

*salutes*

Good enough for me. I think most of what Turrin translated has a similar issue so it's not a big deal. Something's better than nothing.

nixofcyzerra · Jan 7, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Wikipedia said:

I'd lay good odds that these are the body parts that Naruto's healing/regeneration can handle, minus the heart because Kabuto, or Death Gate, or something.

Knyght · Jan 7, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Btw, I've linked to all your recent theories in the OP, nixofcyzerra.

Naruto The Narutoversity

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