Naruto The Narutoversity

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

But it wouldn't be possible to kill yourself with chakra exhaustion with that explanation. You'd always have at least some small fraction of your energies left, you can never reach "zero chakra left" no matter how many times you divide it.

Besides we already know that the clones are somehow linked to the original in that they can draw out the Kyuubi's chakra (if the Kyuubi's chakra was merely being evenly divided among the clones then when Naruto made 200 clones it would probably not be possible for one of them to draw out three tails worth of it's chakra), so I think it makes more sense to just assume they can remotely draw out the original's own chakra as well in the exact same manner.
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

I mentioned in the post before last that chakra is constantly being drawn from the original to maintain their existence which, coupled with the chakra division and possibly the chakra used to actually create the clone, is what forms the hazard of using shadow clones. Creating more clones than you can handle means that you've split your chakra too many times to support them and they collectively manage to take away more energy than they have.

I wasn't denying their link to the original (or that each one is linked to the Kyuubi), just the nature of that link with the claim that all the chakra they actively use is being drawn directly from the original's stamina each time. To me thst denies what we're told about its chakra division from multiple sources who've actually used the jutsu (unlike Neji).

And having some fraction of your energies isn't necessarily enough to keep you alive if it's small enough anyway.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Welp, looks like you are right about that.



The more clones, the less chakra each one has. So I guess the user's spiritual and physical energies are evenly distributed after all.

I wonder, is the chakra evenly divided only when the clones are first summoned, or is chakra constantly shifting between the original and all copies in order to keep their chakra levels even as long as the jutsu is active? For example, if Naruto creates one batch of clones and then creates a second batch while the first set still exist, will Naruto and the second batch have much lower chakra levels than the first set of clones since they were created from a chakra pool that was already divided once? Or will chakra automatically be drained and redistributed from the first batch until Naruto and all the shadow clones have equal chakra levels?

Or a different example, if one clones keeps performing jutsu while the rest stand around doing nothing, will the active clone run out of chakra and dispel while the other clones remain "fresh?" Or will the active clone siphon chakra away from the rest until they all run out and dispel together?

Cause to me the fact that clones return chakra to the original and all other clones when they dispel would seem to imply they do work that way. It would certainly explain why the jutsu is so dangerous if the clones can keep taking chakra from the original and each other in order to keep them all at even chakra levels.
 

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Hmm... Maybe a clone can never have more chakra than it was created with.

So, say Naruto has 10000 chakra points. 9550 of this is his stamina, and 50 is the chakra that naturally flows through his chakra system at all times and makes him superhuman even when not focusing. He then moulds 500 CP (ignoring any lost chakra to anything less than perfect control,) and makes 5 clones, with each clone costing 50 CP to make. Each of the clones Naruto has made this time therefore also have an energy reserve of 50 CP. When they use up some chakra, energy is drawn from the original Naruto to maintain a constant level of 50 CP, but their own reserve cannot exceed said level.

Unfortunately, a Rasengan costs 200 CP.

And Kakashi might just mean that, with too many clones drawing on "a massive amount of chakra," Naruto would exhaust himself too quickly to make any real progress. It's not that concrete a staement. I think you were right the first time, Altered Nova. I mean, it's basically the same problem we see Naruto initially having with his KCM.
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

Create three clones at once and dispel one would make that one's chakra return to the rest, resulting in the last clone having gone from a 1/3 of the total chakra to 1/2. Thus they'd have more chakra than they're created with.

Altered Nova said:
Or will the active clone siphon chakra away from the rest until they all run out and dispel together?

Cause to me the fact that clones return chakra to the original and all other clones when they dispel would seem to imply they do work that way. It would certainly explain why the jutsu is so dangerous if the clones can keep taking chakra from the original and each other in order to keep them all at even chakra levels.
That's exactly how I think it works.
 

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Hmm... You're probably right. The fact that a Kage Bunshin dispelling transfers copies of its memory to every other clone certainly implies that all the clones are connected to one another in a complex "web" network, and clones unconsciously drawing on the original's chakra in order to maintain the same level in their circulatory system would explain why the clones can't be discerned from the original by the byakugan. Wait, does that mean that if one of Naruto's clones tries to use a jutsu, drawing on more chakra from the original and increasing the amount of chakra currently in its circulatory system, then the chakra in the original's and every other clone's will rise to match? What happens when the additional chakra is expelled once the jutsu is fired?

Have we ever seen someone collapse and have their clones simultaneously vanish?

That said, I maintain that Kage Bunshin splits chakra, not stamina. I'm sure that it's just that the body unconsciously converts a little P+S energy into chakra to keep the circulatory system at a certain level of pressure, which would be the principle that Yoroi's jutsu is based upon. A jutsu that splits P+S energy that's still in the body and that hasn't been moulded for a jutsu goes against every explanation of ninjutsu we've seen.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

I don't see why it's so hard to believe the jutsu can split stamina. Unlike normal clones, Shadow Clones have real flesh-and-blood bodies so it would make sense for them to have pure unmixed physical energy, and they also have souls and memories and sentience so they presumably have pure mental/spiritual energy too. They are literally real people in every way that matters aside from their permanence. Which is actually kind of creepy if you think about it.

I'm gonna write out an example of how I think this jutsu works, you all let me know if it sounds whack to you.

Let's say Kakashi has 500 stamina points. And lets say that creating a shadow clone costs 50 chakra. That's the energy cost to create the physical shell of the clone's body and set up the chakra links between it, any other clones and the original - this chakra is used up and does not return to the original body when the clone is dispelled.

So Kakashi is feeling insulted but also lazy, and decides he needs a shadow clone to whoop someone's ass for him. He converts 50 stamina to chakra, and performs the jutsu to create one clone, leaving him with 450 stamina. Then the jutsu automatically divides his stamina between him and the clone, so each ends up with 225 stamina.

The clone then performs a raikiri on the poor bastard who was giving Kakashi lip. This jutsu requires converting 150 stamina to chakra (Kakashi was limited to 3 raikiri a day right?), leaving the clone with only 75 stamina left while Kakashi still has 225. However because the jutsu automatically equalizes stamina/chakra levels between the original and all clones, the clone immediately siphons another 75 stamina from Kakashi, leaving them both at 150 stamina.

Kakashi dispels the clone. That 150 stamina is refunded back to him, leaving him with a final tally of 300 stamina.
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

Sounds legit. :sisi:

Altered Nova said:
I don't see why it's so hard to believe the jutsu can split stamina. Unlike normal clones, Shadow Clones have real flesh-and-blood bodies so it would make sense for them to have pure unmixed physical energy, and they also have souls and memories and sentience so they presumably have pure mental/spiritual energy too. They are literally real people in every way that matters aside from their permanence. Which is actually kind of creepy if you think about it.
Made by the same guy who thought bringing the dead back to life as immortal weapons was a good idea.
 

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Just as elemental jutsu are comprised of chakra mimicking the properties of a particular element, I doubt Shadow Clones are actually flesh-and-blood, but instead chakra mimicking its properties. My biggest problem with the idea is that there's never been any confirmation that Chakra can be converted back into Stamina by regular Shinobi.

Nagato absorbed B's chakra and used it to rejuvenate himself, but he was using the Blocking Technique Absorption Seal granted by the Preta Path, so it wouldn't be unexpected for it to surpass other chakra draining techniques. White Zetsu used his Parasite Clone to replenish Sasuke's stamina at the Kage summit, but Zetsu is a clone of Hashirama who could actually create life with his Mokuton. Jirobo's Earth Release Barrier: Earth Prison Dome of Magnificent Nothingness allowed him to replenish his stamina by draining the chakra of others, but he was a member of the Sound Four, and apparently unique enough that Kabuto bothered to steal his DNA. Aburame insects are specifically bred to consume chakra.

Yoroi absorbed chakra and used it to power techniques, but that could just be a result of the stolen chakra flowing around his circulatory system and not actually being converted back into stamina, Kabuto absorbed Anko's chakra, but only to strengthen the Edo Tensei technique, and Kisame's Water Release: Great Shark Bullet Technique was a jutsu that absorbed an opponent's techniques to level up.

Hell, while Dan was a spirit in Tsunade's consciousness, he restored her chakra by filling up her Strength of a Hundred Seal, not by actually replenishing her stamina. And if chakra can be converted back into stamina, then why is chakra exhaustion such a big deal when we know the chakra transfer technique exists?
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Shadow Clone jutsu doesn't have to be able to convert chakra back into stamina to move it around. The stamina splitting is an effect of the jutsu, not the cost.
 

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Wait, so you're saying that when Naruto forms one clone, half of his physical and spiritual energies are transferred to the clone, without said energies being converted to chakra? Do the energies even enter the circulatory system?

That sounds unnecessarily convoluted, especially when the alternative idea of Naruto's initial investment of chakra actually forming the clone or clones, and the chakra inside his/their circulatory systems, and then a "chakra link" maintaining the level of chakra inside their CCS, with an aspect of the technique keeping said levels identical to the original so Sensor-types can't tell them apart, seems much more straightforward.

*re-reads last paragraph*

Relatively straightforward.
 
RE: The Naruversity

You guys are forgetting clones can regen chakra.
 
Blaze Release/Kirin (Knyght)

Knyght

The Collector
Blaze Release (Official Version)

This is the jutsu style used by Uchiha Sasuke with his Mangekyou Sharingan. His left eye has Amaterasu and his right eye has Kagutsuchi and using these two jutsu together creates Blaze Release. Amaterasu is the highest level of Fire Release and ignites an unquenchable black fire at the focal point of his vision. Kagutsuchi is able to control those black flames with shape transformation, changing its form to suit his needs or extinguishing it.

It is not an original style since there have been Uchiha before Sasuke who posssess those same jutsu with their Mangekyou Sharingan, but he has taken it heights that no-one else has reached. Upon achieving the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, Sasuke became able to channel this power through his Susanoo to create an orb of black flame held within its hand that can be shaped into weapons. He could create a sword of black fire, shoot flaming arrows or rapid-fire black flames in the shape of magatama.

Kirin (Official Version)

This S-rank lightning jutsu was created by Uchiha Sasuke for the sake of killing his brother, Uchiha Itachi. It summons natural lightning from thunder clouds which Sasuke shapes and guides with a small amount of chakra and then fires it as an immensely powerful lightning strike that hits in 1/1000th of a second. This jutsu is certain death to any living creature it hits.

The first version of this jutsu has Sasuke send a significant amount of lightning chakra into the sky to manipulate the weather by creating a localised thundercloud. The lightning chakra stimulates a reaction that gathers natural lightning within the cloud. Sasuke takes control of this lightning and then directs it towards his target on the ground in a lightning bolt. The second version creates the weather conditions by using fire jutsu to heat up the air and have the thunderclouds appear naturally, assuming they aren't already present. The greater the storm, the more powerful the jutsu. Sasuke then controls the lightning that builds up within them and releases it.

The first version is faster but less powerful and needs more chakra, making it best used at the start of a battle to finish things quickly. The second requires preparation but uses very little chakra, making it perfect for finishing a battle with a powerful last move. The jutsu can only be used once per battle in either case as the thunder clouds immediately disperse afterwards.
 
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Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

You know considering how utterly superior a real lightning bolt is compared to the pathetic imitation that is lightning release ninjutsu, and that real electricity can be manipulated and directed by chakra, you'd think there'd be more ninja using it. Kumo really ought to have a "Tesla Squad" that wears armor with built in battery capacitors, carries around generators in scrolls to power their big jutsu (while allies cover for them) and summons electric eels and electric catfish. That would be badass.
 
Why Sasuke Does Not Have the Tsukuyomi (Knyght)

Knyght

The Collector
Okay, I think I covered everything here. If Kishomoto ever tells me otherwise, my eyes will be the ones bleeding.

Why Sasuke Does Not Have the Tsukuyomi

What Sasuke uses is the common Sharingan Genjutsu but chanelled through his Mangekyou Sharingan which apparently has the effect of amplifying its strength, rendering him capable of instantly incapacitating powerful opponents.

Sasuke casts the genjutsu with one eye of his Mangekyou like how Itachi's casts Tsukuyomi with his left eye. But whilst Sasuke typically casts it with his right eye, he has also done it with his left. Twice, since he appears to be holding his left eye in pain. And even regular Sharingan Genjutsu can be used through a single eye as demonstrated by Madara and Itachi. Itachi even uses Sharingan Genjutsu with the Mangekyou himself as his Tsukuyomi is cast with his left eye, not his right. Madara has done the same.

Sasuke has never once called his genjutsu, Tsukuyomi. Kagutsuchi was named the second time it was revealed but it was still revealed and, unlike Tsukuyomi, was an ability Sasuke and the reader had never seen before. Both Danzo and Tobi compare it to Itachi's Tsukuyomi - understable since they are brothers and both use Amaterasu and Susanoo - but neither of them actually call it Tsukuyomi. Only twice has Sasuke used the genjutsu with a name which was "Sharingan" and "Genjutsu - Sharingan" respectively (just like Madara). The latter occasion also makes it explicit by showing his genjutsu side-by-side with Itachi's Tsukuyomi.

Tobi implied that Sasuke had received Itachi's eye techniques but Itachi had only sealed a single use of the Amaterasu inside Sasuke with the Transcription Seal: Amaterasu which Sasuke had no actual control over. And when that was used his eye transformed into Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan temporarily. So if Sasuke used a Tsukuyomi from Itachi, his eyes would have changed to show it.

The genjutsu Sasuke uses against B resembles the Tsukuyomi with its inverted colours but this is also the only time that happens. Every other time when we see the genjutsu itself, it doesn't have that visual effect. It's also said by Itachi and the second databook that the Tsukuyomi can only be broken by an elite Uchiha with the Sharingan which we later saw proven and explained. Yet B was essentially freed with just a genjutsu dispel.

Ultimately, Sasuke only has Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi with Mangekyou. Amaterasu was first used with his left eye against Killer B. Kagutsuchi was used and named against the Raikage where he shaped the black flames and dubbed it "Enton: Kagutsuchi". The clearest and most indisputable evidence of these two being his Mangekyou jutsu are when he uses both in the battle against Kaguya.

Even after Sasuke took Itachi's eyes to awaken the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, he has never revealed the Tsukuyomi. Instead his existing abilities were empowered.

Once the third databook stated that you would need Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi to awaken the Susanoo, but this appears to be outdated information. If anything, I'd believe that Kishomoto had originally intended to give Sasuke the same jutsu as his brother (with different preferences, perhaps) but decided otherwise at crunch time. As far as we know, the only character with the Tsukuyomi is Uchiha Itachi.
 
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RE: The Naruversity

Sasuke himself during the fight with A states you need to master both Eyes to use Susanoo
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

And so he did by awakening Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi, Susanoo being the third power.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

How does one even go about "mastering" both eyes? The powers seem to be gained automatically upon awakening the Mangekyou. Obito was Kamui-ing it up like a pro within seconds of evolving his eyes, and the only power Sasuke actually had to work for was Susanoo and he managed to get the hang of that jutsu within a couple of days.
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

I wish I knew.

And by-the-by, I'm totally sick of the claim that Sasuke's Amaterasu and "Tsukuyomi" came from Itachi sealing all his doujutsu powers inside him.

:no:
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Surprisingly, it looks like Narutopedia has finally pulled their collective heads out of their asses in regards to that issue. I just checked Sasuke's wiki page and all claims of Sasuke knowing Tsukuyomi have been scrubbed. I guess that page of Sasuke explicitly being shown to cast Kagutsuchi and Amaterasu one to each eye when fighting Kaguya finally shattered their little pet theory.

Now if only they'd remove the claims that Blaze release is an advanced elemental nature combining two basic elements, which is supported by nothing but the weak evidence that "well every other 'release' is a advanced element, so blaze release must also be an advanced element even though it is clearly shown and explained to be nothing more than the simple ability to manipulate the shape of Amaterasu flames, which we know are only Fire Release."
 
Rock Lee's Talent (Knyght)

Knyght

The Collector
Rock Lee's Talent (Official Version)

Rock Lee has no talent in ninjutsu and genjutsu and has below-average talent in taijutsu.

This does not mean that he cannot create chakra or cannot control his chakra. In Lee's very first appearance, Sasuke notices the chakra flowing through his arms, implying that he was using chakra enhancement to block those kicks like Sasuke first demonstrated. This was likely responsible for his feat of pulling out a tree root one-handed.

In Part 2, Lee demonstrates his ability to water walk and so we can assume that he can walk on walls too. It is likely that Lee can use Genjutsu Dispel as it works by disrupting chakra flow and then using more power to cancel the genjutsu, so it is closer to chakra control than ninjutsu or genjutsu.

So we know that Lee is able to mix his physical and spiritual energy together to create chakra, to create the same amount of chakra and gather it to the necessary place, and to continually release the appropriate amount of chakra.

This means that Lee's specific problem is that he has no aptitude for transforming his chakra into a jutsu. He can create and control chakra but not change its shape or nature, even with hand-seals.

This does not mean it is impossible for Lee to learn ninjutsu and genjutsu. Maito Gai suffered from the same issue but he has at least demonstrated the ability to use the Summoning Jutsu. Theoretically, Lee could learn any ninjutsu or genjutsu if he was willing to put in the same (or even more) hard work that he puts into his taijutsu training.

But as Lee's ninja way is to become a great ninja without ninjutsu or genjutsu, this will likely never happen.
 
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nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Can you really call yourself a genius of hard work if you give up attempting to improve on stuff you have no talent in? I mean, he had at least a little aptitude for taijutsu, as it was apparently his best area.
 
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