Naruto The Narutoversity

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

In my post here, I actually calculated that a D-rank mission can cost anywhere from about $550 to $5450 2013 USD.

So I'm thinking that a lot of D-rank missions are that high because it's either a matter of status, or because chakra-users can accomplish a lot more in a few hours of physical labour than a civilian.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

What rank would a mission that involves travelling to an unallied nation which isn't actually at war with them fall under?

To expand and clarify upon my last post: With the exception of S-rank, the rank of a mission is primarily determined by the degree of danger to the ninja undertaking it. (A mission is classified as S-rank if the security and stability of the village or it's host nation depends on its success, regardless of the danger involved.) So for a mission to an unallied nation that isn't at war with the village, the rank is determined by how likely the Kage believes it is that their ninja will be drawn into lethal combat if discovered by the local ninja. This obviously would be highly variable, depending on the nature of the mission, relations with the unallied nation, and the strength of that nation's ninja.

For example, imagine you are the Kage. If the mission is not critical and the relations are not overly hostile with the unallied nation, and you therefore give your ninja permission to surrender if cornered by the local ninja, then it's B-rank since they are unlikely to die on the mission. If the mission is so top secret that you order all your ninja not to be captured alive, then the mission is going to be at least A-rank, since discovery by the local ninja likely means a fight to the death. If the mission would likely be considered an act of war by the host nation (kidnapping a civilian, corporate sabotage, etc), then it becomes S-rank because the consequences of your ninja being captured could be politically devastating.

In my post here, I actually calculated that a D-rank mission can cost anywhere from about $550 to $5450 2013 USD.

So I'm thinking that a lot of D-rank missions are that high because it's either a matter of status, or because chakra-users can accomplish a lot more in a few hours of physical labour than a civilian.

I did that same calculation actually, which is why I came to the conclusion that many D-ranks are probably subsidized by the village for the purpose of training genin, because dang that's a lot of money.

I mean yeah, there probably are a plenty of rich people who are willing to overpay ninja to complete basic chores just to show off their wealth and status, but would there really be enough of them to provide enough D-rank missions to keep all of the village's genin regularly employed?

I guess it's hard to say, since there's only four canon D-rank missions that I know of. The infamous "Capture Tora" mission, and three potential ones that Hiruzen mentioned that Naruto rejected: babysitting an elder's grandson, shopping in the neighboring village, and help with the potato digging.

Potato digging may well be something a farm would shell out thousands of dollars for since a ninja probably could do the work of ten normal laborers. But babysitting and shopping, at least, don't seem like the kind of tasks that a ninja could do so much better/faster than a normal person to justify the outrageous price, so either it's only rich people paying for those missions or the village is subsidizing them.

Personally, I think that the village probably hands out missions payed for by rich people first, then gives out missions for hard physical labor purchases by corporations and small businesses, and then they discount D-rank missions for regular civilians until their quota of needed D-ranks is reached.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

Went back and overhauled Sages and Senjutsu. Probably not 'done done' and I may have been inconsistent but it's getting there.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

Ooh, ninja monks learning human senjutsu. I like that idea. Maybe the "theurgical enlightenment" Kakuzu mentioned in the manga or the anime-only "Gift of the Hermit Group" chakra they possess has something to do with nature energy.

His mother, the Rabbit Goddess, was capable of manipulating the natural energy of the entire world to direct it at her pleasure but never actually learned to take it into herself. Hence why her son was the one to be called a sage.

This I'm not sure about. Kagura fused with the Ten-tails, and becoming the host of the Ten-tails seems to automatically give the user senjutsu as well as a kind of Sage Mode comparable to that of the Sage of Six Paths himself.

I mean, when Obito and Madara absorbed the Ten-tails, they changed appearance in a manner very similar to a slightly imperfect 'human style' Sage Mode activation (which was very similar to the appearance of Kaguya and Hagoromo), they gained the markings of Six Paths Senjutsu on their backs, their physical capabilities were vastly improved, they gained the power of flight and they acquired the truth-seeking balls. It was very similar to the abilities of Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode.

So I'd say that Kaguya did take nature energy into herself and use it to enhance her own body. The difference is, Kaguya gained that power by fusing with the Ten-tails, essentially stealing it's senjutsu. Hagoromo, on the other hand, learned how to do it all on his own. And therefore, unlike his mother, he could teach others how to do it.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

Ooh, ninja monks learning human senjutsu. I like that idea. Maybe the "theurgical enlightenment" Kakuzu mentioned in the manga or the anime-only "Gift of the Hermit Group" chakra they possess has something to do with nature energy.

The Gift of the Hermit Group/Sages, based on the name, should relate to senjutsu or ninshuu and we've discussed the latter concept here. I did think it was based on senjutsu prior to learning about ninshu if only because we heard about one long before the other, though neither of them were known for some time after the monks first showed up. I don't recall ever coming up with a good idea of what a senjutsu-style Gift of the Hermit Group would be though.

This I'm not sure about. Kagura fused with the Ten-tails, and becoming the host of the Ten-tails seems to automatically give the user senjutsu as well as a kind of Sage Mode comparable to that of the Sage of Six Paths himself.

I mean, when Obito and Madara absorbed the Ten-tails, they changed appearance in a manner very similar to a slightly imperfect 'human style' Sage Mode activation (which was very similar to the appearance of Kaguya and Hagoromo), they gained the markings of Six Paths Senjutsu on their backs, their physical capabilities were vastly improved, they gained the power of flight and they acquired the truth-seeking balls. It was very similar to the abilities of Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode.

So I'd say that Kaguya did take nature energy into herself and use it to enhance her own body. The difference is, Kaguya gained that power by fusing with the Ten-tails, essentially stealing it's senjutsu. Hagoromo, on the other hand, learned how to do it all on his own. And therefore, unlike his mother, he could teach others how to do it.

My intention was point out the implication that it's seemingly possible to influence natural energy without actually using senjutsu since Tenpenchii is cast by using chakra to "interfere" with natural energy and we're given a panel where Kaguya was presumably creating a lightning storm. Here I was focusing on what Kaguya was capable of as a person rather than when she later becomes the Ten-Tails to avoid going off on a tanget.

I wasn't sure whether I should have even mentioned her so it might be worth saving all of that for a theoretical Six Paths Senjutsu/Chakra Origin article.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

Wait, Tenpenchii isn't a senjutsu?

I mean, obviously chakra can be used to influence nature energy or it would be rather difficult to mix them together into senjutsu chakra. And nature energy is basically just the planet's chakra since the two energies are very similar mechanically, with ninja utilizing them in fundamentally the same way, just with nature energy being far more potent and difficult to control. But how would you know how to disrupt the nature energy with your chakra in precisely the right way to cause a thunderstorm if you can't sense the nature energy? Trial and error?

Or maybe... perhaps Tenpenchii work on the same principles as Kirin, just on astronomically higher scale? I mean, Sasuke did create a natural thunderstorm with his ninjutsu. Shooting fire jutsu into the sky to create a stormfront could be described as "using chakra to interfere with natural energy."

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

Strangely it's just classed as a ninjutsu, or whatever passes for ninjutsu for a god-monster.

I'd assume that Kaguya/Ten-Tails can sense natural energy and intuitively know how to mess it up to create the desired change. I suppose if Sasuke does something similar by using fire jutsu to create a thunderstorm then Kaguya's method cuts out the middle man and creates the same conditions directly and immediately manifest whatever change she wants.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

So pre-ten-tails-fusion Kaguya could sense nature energy (a side effect of eating the fruit perhaps?) but she couldn't directly control it or draw it into her body like her son could. She had to indirectly interfere with the "flow" of natural energy using her own vast chakra reserves in order to manipulate the weather. I can agree with that.

Why does the Ten-tails need to indirectly use chakra to interfere with natural energy to cause disasters though? It can manipulate natural energy directly. Why not skip the 'interference with chakra' part and just will a natural thunderstorm into existence?

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

Perhaps because it's instananeously creating every possible disaster simultaneously rather than just making a certain weather pattern and the most effective means of doing so, and the one that most naturally comes to its bestial mind, is simply to let its immense chakra run loose.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

Quick theory about summons inspired by a small reference in Dreaming of Sunshine:

The animal summons live in another realm connection to the human realm that was created by the Sage of Six Paths in a pact with them to give them their own home. The reason these animals allow themselves to be summoned by humans for practically nothing in return is because the chakra for the Summoning Jutsu is used the sustain the existence of that 'man-made' dimension.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

Are the animals not allowed to donate their own chakra towards the maintenance of their dimensions? Because Gamabunta alone could probably spare more chakra in a few days than Naruto normally spends on the summoning jutsu in a month.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

They can't because...

*brainstorming*

They inhabit the dimension.

Or because it requires human chakra.

Or because it requires the Summoning Jutsu itself.

Or because it must be supplied from outside the dimension

Or because it's necessary to stop it from being completely untethered from the human world which would be bad because reasons.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

But don't we know that Mount Myoboku is an actual physical place in the Elemental Countries?


I once wondered whether a steady diet of "Human chakra" was required to maintain their sapience.

Like, maybe without a summoner any baby toads born will be just that, regular baby toads.

We know that Jinchuuriki take on traits of their animal-like Tailed Beast when they draw on their chakra (unless you've mastered Sage Mode and can go "Nah, I'm staying biped.) And isn't the secret to the Inuzuka clan that they essentially "trade" chakra with their Ninken, gaining animal-like traits in exchange for the dogs getting smarter?

I mean, if a pair of Inuzuka Ninken went rogue and settled down to have a litter of puppies, how many generations do you think it would take until any born were just normal dogs?

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

But don't we know that Mount Myoboku is an actual physical place in the Elemental Countries?

One does not simply walk to Mount Myoboku. They must travel through one of the secret paths that connects the human realm to the summon realm otherwise they would only wander aimlessly and never find the place they seek. That is the real reason it can take a month to reach its summit despite the distances that ninja can cover at full speed, because it is literally a world away. :sisi:

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

Hey knight, I thought you didn't like the idea that summon animals live in different dimensions from the humans?

Personally I think the animal tribes are totally independent from humans and their chakra, and each have their own reasons for acting subservient to their human summoners.

For example, the Toad tribe. Their leader, the Great Toad Sage Gamamaru, often makes prophecies. Ever notice how every known toad summoner has been the subject (or mistaken to be) of one of those prophecies?

Jiraiya; prophesied that, among other things, "he would one day have a student with the power to save or destroy the world, and that it would be Jiraiya's actions that will determine which path this student takes."

Minato; student of Jiraiya, thought to possibly be the 'chosen' one who would save or destroy the world.

Naruto; another student of Jiraiya and potential 'chosen one'. Also discovered to be the subject of an ancient prophecy told to the Sage of Six Paths himself - "(one day a) 'mischievous blue-eyed boy' would unite the tailed beasts and change the world."

My headcanon is this - The Toads will only accept someone as their summoner if they believe him or her to be a person spoken of in one of Gamamaru's prophecies. They seek out these 'chosen ones' and willingly serve and train them while asking little in return, because they wish to help them fulfill their destinies and change the world for the better.

As for Katsuyu... well, Katsuyu has never actually been fully summoned that we know of. Even Tsunade and Sakura using the full power of the Strength of a Hundred Seal can only summon a portion of her body. This means that being summoned does not actually endanger Katsuyu, and probably does not even really inconvenience her. For all we know, when Tsunade summons part of her body to fight Orochimaru or whatever, the rest of her is just chillin' in Shikkotsu Forest watching TV soap operas. So she may allow humans to summon just as a hobby, something to keep from being bored.

I'm not entirely sure what the deal is with the snakes though. Manda was apparently being bribed by Orochimaru, since he demanded a hundred human sacrifices for his services when he was summoned during the Search for Tsunade arc. But Kabuto was also worried that Manda would turn on them if he learned that Orochimaru had lost his jutsu, and Manda threatened Orochimaru when they lost that battle. But even later Aoda was very polite and subservient to Sasuke, despite the fact that Sasuke had callously sacrificed the previous boss of the tribe. That makes me think the snakes might have a brutal 'survival of the fittest' kind of society where the weak are socially conditioned to serve the strong, and the snakes only serve summoners that are more powerful than themselves.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

Hey knight, I thought you didn't like the idea that summon animals live in different dimensions from the humans?

No, no, I've always liked the idea. However I believe that the evidence points more to humans and summons residing in the same dimension so I usually lean towards that when the topic comes up.

This little theory just came about after I read this from Dreaming of Sunshine:

"Your chakra from the call is all we require," he said, dignified. "It allows us to maintain and strengthen our lands in the summon realm."

It was a topic that I wanted to know much more about. Because we gained so much from summons, that it stood to reason whatever they gained from us was worth just as much. The contract couldn't be so unequal.

So I was like, hey, this could explain why summons obey humans and throw themselves in danger for practically nothing in return as far as we know and gives me an excuse to promote a summon realm over the more mundane answer. Plus ties into whatever relationship Hagoromo must have had with animal summons due to his Animal Path. If it ain't up to snuff then so be it but I figured I'd try.  :snigger:

 

[Knyght]

Because this usually comes up when Taki makes an appearance in fanfiction.

Hero Water (Official Version)

Hero Water is an elixir used by the Hidden Waterfall since it was first established. The elixir is made from sap extracted from the tree that grows in the centre of the village which, when ingested, stimulated the chakra within the body until it forcibly opens the Eight Gates that restrict chakra flow. The more Hero Water a person drinks then the more Gates are opened and the more powerful they become all the way up until the Eighth Gate.

This makes a waterfall-nin incredibly dangerous as they can tap into a level of strength far beyond their normal abilities, allowing them to fight and defeat ninja superior in skill and numbers. It is this elixir, more than anything, that has allowed Taki to remain uninvaded through three great wars despite belonging to one of the minor nations.

However opening the Eight Gates is a forbidden jutsu because of the immense stress placed on the body that can cripple or even kill the person using them even before reaching the final gate. Learning to open the Eight Gates requires a body strong enough to withstand that power in the first place while those who simply drink the Hero Water aren't trained to handle it. So not only do they sustain the usual physical stress inflicted by the Gates with a body that typically can't withstand it, but they suffer even further because of their unnatural opening in the first place. The drinker also has no control over the Gate itself so it could remain open or abruptly close again against their will which is likely to put them in danger during combat. More often than not, those who drink the Hero Water end up killing themselves along with their enemies.

The reason the sap contains such incredibly properties is because the tree's roots have dug so deep into the earth that it reached a dragon vein which allowed it to feed on the planet's chakra, providing it with a powerful lifeforce beyond most others. When a group of humans learned of this, they performed numerous tests on the tree to discover if it had gained any unique properties and discovered the powerful effect that the sap can have. The tree was originally guarded by a single clan who used its power to help survive the Warring States and only shared its secret when an alliance was formed to build a hidden village. To this day, that same clan manage the treatment of the tree and are highly valued among the village because of it.

Hero Water is typically only given to the village's jounin who can be trusted to wield its power responsibility, survive the effects and prevent its secrets from falling into enemy hands. And even they believe the misinformation that the elixir is composed of extremely rare and valuable ingredients put through a complicated preparation to help deceive foreign intelligence.

It was only during the Third Shinobi World War where manpower was at an all time low for every nation that Taki's chuunin and even genin were given the Hero Water to prevent their small country from being overwhelmed by the superpowers of the land. The gambit was successful in protecting their home but it left the Hidden Waterfall at the weakest it has ever been for years after the war, possibly even the weakest of all hidden village as much as they desperately try to hide it from enemies and allies alike.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

RE: The Naruversity

...which resulted in them taking a gamble making a Seven Tails Jinchuriki to increase their military power in short time

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

:sisi:

Actually, Fuu being the first Seven Tailed Jinchuuriki could be why no-one else had ever gotten their hands on Chomei despite it belonging to a minor village which would surely make it a tempting target. If it had been sealed away inside the village, it could have helped kept enemies at bay with constant threat of its presence should anyone attack them directly.

And it could be why Fuu might be one of those who was hated and abandoned when Akatsuki came - since holding onto your Jinchuuriki should be vitally important - if they had no experience with their potential rampages and suffered enough losses to their manpower because of it that they didn't consider it worth the effort.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

So Taki got so desperate during the war that they essentially turned their genin and chuunin into chakra-powered suicide bombers? Damn, that's dark. I like it.

How about this idea. The reason that Hashirama gave Takigakure a bijuu in the first place was because they were the only non-major village capable of containing one, and it's entirely thanks to that tree. They used the chakra drawn up from the dragon veins to power a sealing array so secure that escape was impossible. In return for holding the bijuu Hashirama signed a peace treaty with the village which has lasted every since - which is why they sent six genin to the chuunin exam hosted in Konoha.

But as you said, after the Third War they became so low on manpower that they couldn't rely on the hero water to protect their village anymore, so they broke the sealing array and created the first seven-tails jinchuuriki. However, their lack of experience with jinchuuriki meant they went through several hosts and a number of rampages before they finally succeeded with Fuu. Although she could successfully control the beast, it was too little too late for most of the surviving shinobi; so many had lost friends and family to the beast that none trusted her, and she was hated and feared by her own comrades. When Kakuzu and Hidan came to capture her, no other Taki-nin came to her aid. She put up a good fight, but without any allies she was ultimately defeated and her beast extracted by Akatsuki.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

I think we've got it, gents.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

RE: The Naruversity

actually, what is Fuu's official description?

Not having much first hand experience with their own jinchuriki going wild could have resulted in her being trated reasonably well... she did seem the less "dark" of the jinchuriki, for the little we have seen in canon

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

None of the jinchuuriki (or their bijuu) seemed remotely 'dark' when we saw them and Fuu said the least out of everyone ("that's right" and her name) when they all met up.

But her db profile does mention that she's "cheerful and lively" so there's similarities Naruto and B there.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

Deidara did mention that two jinchuuriki were captured before Gaara and that those two didn't care about others and none of their friends and comrades came to save them. The only jinchuuriki who could have possibly been sealed before Gaara are Fuu, Utakata and Han.

So it's possible that Fuu was an outcast who was abandoned to Akatsuki by her village, and her cheerful and lively personality is a coping mechanism like Naruto's was. But it's also possible that the outcasts were Han and Utakata, and Fuu was treated well by her village and was a genuinely happy person.

I suppose it's also possible that Deidara was just a lying asshole who was taunting Naruto. He did also say that the Sanbi was just a mindless beast without a host, which we now know is bullshit.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

Thinking on it, it seems unlikely that Deidara would have been involved in both of the previous captures as well as Gaara's. So he may be just basing it on what the other Akatsuki member had said during the sealing for whichever one he didn't capture, which could make it as unreliable as his belief that the Tailed Beasts are mindless.

Or not. :wacko:

Personally, I think Fuu and Utakata are the most likely culprits. Fuu as byproduct of being a jinchuuriki for a minor village (especially with all this other stuff we've got here) and Utakata as backlash for Yagura's nightmare reign.