Naruto The Narutoversity
- Thread starter Knyght
- Start date
RE: The Naruversity
I don't see why not. He absorbs jutsu by taking it into his body and spinning it opposite of his own natural spin. Genjutsu is made of chakra and unlike ninjutsu, it's actually trying to enter your body. So if anything it should be easier to absorb than ninjutsu, assuming you can still control your own chakra at all after being caught in the genjutsu.
Expanding on my theory of how genjutsu function. if I tried to rank some known genjutsu by their various strengths and weakness on 1-8 scales (E-rank to SSS-rank), It would probably go something like this:
Bring of Darkness
Complexity: C-rank (somewhat powerful, causes blindness but does not impede movement)
Fragility: SS-rank (immensely difficult to break)
Overall Difficulty: A-rank
Tree Binding Death
Complexity: A-rank (very powerful, binds victim's limbs with an illusionary tree but doesn't completely restrict movement)
Fragility: C-rank (somewhat difficult to break)
Overall Difficulty: B-rank
Toad Confrontation Chant
Complexity: SS-rank (phenomenally powerful, victim is rendered utterly helpless)
Fragility: S-rank (extremely difficult to break)
Overall Difficulty: low SS-rank (generally impossible for a single human to cast)
Hell Viewing Technique
Complexity: D-rank (weak, merely draws forth an image of someone the victim cares about in a state of horrible injury)
Fragility: D-rank (weak, even a genin should be able to break this)
Overall Difficulty: D-rank
I don't see why not. He absorbs jutsu by taking it into his body and spinning it opposite of his own natural spin. Genjutsu is made of chakra and unlike ninjutsu, it's actually trying to enter your body. So if anything it should be easier to absorb than ninjutsu, assuming you can still control your own chakra at all after being caught in the genjutsu.
Expanding on my theory of how genjutsu function. if I tried to rank some known genjutsu by their various strengths and weakness on 1-8 scales (E-rank to SSS-rank), It would probably go something like this:
Bring of Darkness
Complexity: C-rank (somewhat powerful, causes blindness but does not impede movement)
Fragility: SS-rank (immensely difficult to break)
Overall Difficulty: A-rank
Tree Binding Death
Complexity: A-rank (very powerful, binds victim's limbs with an illusionary tree but doesn't completely restrict movement)
Fragility: C-rank (somewhat difficult to break)
Overall Difficulty: B-rank
Toad Confrontation Chant
Complexity: SS-rank (phenomenally powerful, victim is rendered utterly helpless)
Fragility: S-rank (extremely difficult to break)
Overall Difficulty: low SS-rank (generally impossible for a single human to cast)
Hell Viewing Technique
Complexity: D-rank (weak, merely draws forth an image of someone the victim cares about in a state of horrible injury)
Fragility: D-rank (weak, even a genin should be able to break this)
Overall Difficulty: D-rank
RE: The Naruversity
Who do you think would be the most likely target for The Bringer of Darkness genjutsu? Maybe its just me, but it almost seems like custom built to be used against the Uchiha. I mean sure, it would be nasty against most, but especially so against doujutsu users.
Not only would a blinding technique be very nasty on someone who likely relies on sight much more than others, but for anyone with MS or even history with MS (EMS user that is to say), the blindness of the genjutsu was probably a mindfuck. I mean if you awakened MS in the clan war period prior to Konohas founding and did not have close relatives left with MS, and Hashirama used this technique on you, then you were basically getting a taste of your future, even if you somehow did survive.
For that matter, could you even use most MS techniques while trapped in BoD? I mean Amaterasu for example is implied to materialise on the spot you look at. But if you cannot see anything at all, can you even bring out Amaterasu in the first place? Could Kakashi Kamui something, when he could not see it with his sharingan and focus on it, even if he fully knew it was there. And ofcourse even the most hax of MS genjutsu like Koto Amatsukami and Tsukuyomi still require eye contact, which BoD would prevent by default.
Against most Uchiha (and even the Hyuuga) BoD would be a really nasty technique. Heck, it would be pretty nasty even against rinnegan users, assuming that preta could not dispel it.
Who do you think would be the most likely target for The Bringer of Darkness genjutsu? Maybe its just me, but it almost seems like custom built to be used against the Uchiha. I mean sure, it would be nasty against most, but especially so against doujutsu users.
Not only would a blinding technique be very nasty on someone who likely relies on sight much more than others, but for anyone with MS or even history with MS (EMS user that is to say), the blindness of the genjutsu was probably a mindfuck. I mean if you awakened MS in the clan war period prior to Konohas founding and did not have close relatives left with MS, and Hashirama used this technique on you, then you were basically getting a taste of your future, even if you somehow did survive.
For that matter, could you even use most MS techniques while trapped in BoD? I mean Amaterasu for example is implied to materialise on the spot you look at. But if you cannot see anything at all, can you even bring out Amaterasu in the first place? Could Kakashi Kamui something, when he could not see it with his sharingan and focus on it, even if he fully knew it was there. And ofcourse even the most hax of MS genjutsu like Koto Amatsukami and Tsukuyomi still require eye contact, which BoD would prevent by default.
Against most Uchiha (and even the Hyuuga) BoD would be a really nasty technique. Heck, it would be pretty nasty even against rinnegan users, assuming that preta could not dispel it.
RE: The Naruversity
I suppose they'd be a third dimension for the scale, for AoE:
Temple of Nirvana
Complexity: B-rank (generates a fluttering rain of sleep-inducing, illusory white feathers.)
Fragility: High C-rank (fairly weak, a chuunin should be able to break this, but they must do so within a time limit or be rendered unconscious.)
Range: S-rank (capable of effecting an area the size of a stadium containing at least 1000 people, if not several thousand.)
Overall Difficulty: A-rank.
...And now I'm thinking the BoD technique will soon be brought up in the next few chapters.
I suppose they'd be a third dimension for the scale, for AoE:
Temple of Nirvana
Complexity: B-rank (generates a fluttering rain of sleep-inducing, illusory white feathers.)
Fragility: High C-rank (fairly weak, a chuunin should be able to break this, but they must do so within a time limit or be rendered unconscious.)
Range: S-rank (capable of effecting an area the size of a stadium containing at least 1000 people, if not several thousand.)
Overall Difficulty: A-rank.
...And now I'm thinking the BoD technique will soon be brought up in the next few chapters.
RE: The Naruversity
Bringer of Darkness being custom made for fighting the Uchiha is a pretty clever idea. I once speculated that Kage Bunshin was invented by Hashirama as a non-kekkei genkai dependent variant of the Mokuton Bunshin, so his clansmen would be able to use them for flanking sharingan users and tanking their genjutsu (since Kage Bunshin seem to be at least partially immune to the effects of genjutsu). Bringer of Darkness fits into that narrative quite well. I wonder if the Uchiha ever invented any jutsu specifically for countering the Senju?
Good point, scale also needs to be incorporated into my system. Also we need to differentiate between "scale" and "range". A large scale genjutsu can affect many people at once, but a long range jutsu can affect someone from far away. For example, when the White Zetsu army infiltrated the Allied Shinobi Camp with their transformation techniques, Shikaku suggested genjutsu, and Ao responded "Uchiha Itachi is the only one who could take control of someone from outside the range of our sensors... but even he couldn't be controlling so many people in so many places over such a wide area!"
I'm not sure how to begin qualifying range though (is it how close they have to be to be caught in the jutsu? How far the caster can move away from those caught in the genjutsu before it wears off? How many feet for each jutsu rank?)
There's also duration to take into account. Most genjutsu likely will only last a few minutes if not dispelled earlier (whether by Kai or the victim's death) but then there's genjutsu like Sly Mind Effect which had Team Seven wandering lost for hours in the Forest of Death, and Kotoamatsukami which is apparently permanent.
Let my try again:
Bring of Darkness
Complexity: C-rank (somewhat powerful, causes blindness but does not impede movement)
Fragility: S-rank (immensely difficult to break)
Scale: B-rank (cast over area several dozen meters across, it can ensnare roughly up to a dozen people)
Range: unknown, probably short
Duration: unknown, probably a few minutes
Overall Difficulty: A-rank
Tree Binding Death
Complexity: A-rank (very powerful, binds victim's limbs with an illusionary tree but doesn't completely restrict movement)
Fragility: C-rank (somewhat difficult to break)
Scale: D-rank (only affects one person)
Range: unknown, possibly medium range
Duration: unknown, probably a few minutes
Overall Difficulty: B-rank
Toad Confrontation Chant
Complexity: SS-rank (phenomenally powerful, victim is rendered utterly helpless)
Fragility: S-rank (extremely difficult to break)
Scale: SSS-rank (unlimited, anyone who hears the song is captured)
Range: C-rank (only those within a few hundred feet seem to be affected)
Duration: E-rank (jutsu must be sustained, victims are immediately freed is song is ended)
Overall Difficulty: SS-rank (generally impossible for a single human to cast)
Hell Viewing Technique
Complexity: D-rank (weak, merely draws forth an image of someone the victim cares about in a state of horrible injury)
Fragility: D-rank (weak, even a genin should be able to break this)
Scale: D-rank (only one person can be affected)
Range: unknown, probably very short
Duration: D-rank (image only lasts a few seconds)
Overall Difficulty: D-rank
Bringer of Darkness being custom made for fighting the Uchiha is a pretty clever idea. I once speculated that Kage Bunshin was invented by Hashirama as a non-kekkei genkai dependent variant of the Mokuton Bunshin, so his clansmen would be able to use them for flanking sharingan users and tanking their genjutsu (since Kage Bunshin seem to be at least partially immune to the effects of genjutsu). Bringer of Darkness fits into that narrative quite well. I wonder if the Uchiha ever invented any jutsu specifically for countering the Senju?
Good point, scale also needs to be incorporated into my system. Also we need to differentiate between "scale" and "range". A large scale genjutsu can affect many people at once, but a long range jutsu can affect someone from far away. For example, when the White Zetsu army infiltrated the Allied Shinobi Camp with their transformation techniques, Shikaku suggested genjutsu, and Ao responded "Uchiha Itachi is the only one who could take control of someone from outside the range of our sensors... but even he couldn't be controlling so many people in so many places over such a wide area!"
I'm not sure how to begin qualifying range though (is it how close they have to be to be caught in the jutsu? How far the caster can move away from those caught in the genjutsu before it wears off? How many feet for each jutsu rank?)
There's also duration to take into account. Most genjutsu likely will only last a few minutes if not dispelled earlier (whether by Kai or the victim's death) but then there's genjutsu like Sly Mind Effect which had Team Seven wandering lost for hours in the Forest of Death, and Kotoamatsukami which is apparently permanent.
Let my try again:
Bring of Darkness
Complexity: C-rank (somewhat powerful, causes blindness but does not impede movement)
Fragility: S-rank (immensely difficult to break)
Scale: B-rank (cast over area several dozen meters across, it can ensnare roughly up to a dozen people)
Range: unknown, probably short
Duration: unknown, probably a few minutes
Overall Difficulty: A-rank
Tree Binding Death
Complexity: A-rank (very powerful, binds victim's limbs with an illusionary tree but doesn't completely restrict movement)
Fragility: C-rank (somewhat difficult to break)
Scale: D-rank (only affects one person)
Range: unknown, possibly medium range
Duration: unknown, probably a few minutes
Overall Difficulty: B-rank
Toad Confrontation Chant
Complexity: SS-rank (phenomenally powerful, victim is rendered utterly helpless)
Fragility: S-rank (extremely difficult to break)
Scale: SSS-rank (unlimited, anyone who hears the song is captured)
Range: C-rank (only those within a few hundred feet seem to be affected)
Duration: E-rank (jutsu must be sustained, victims are immediately freed is song is ended)
Overall Difficulty: SS-rank (generally impossible for a single human to cast)
Hell Viewing Technique
Complexity: D-rank (weak, merely draws forth an image of someone the victim cares about in a state of horrible injury)
Fragility: D-rank (weak, even a genin should be able to break this)
Scale: D-rank (only one person can be affected)
Range: unknown, probably very short
Duration: D-rank (image only lasts a few seconds)
Overall Difficulty: D-rank
RE: The Naruversity
Maybe they might have tried, but the Uchiha have a far more obvious vulnerability than the Senju do. I mean the Senju don't really have any actual bloodline ability do they? I guess they might have higher than normal chakra and maybe some fast healing and stamina (though it almost seems like Uzumaki got all of that, interestingly enough), but beyond that they don't really have any hax inborn techniques, which means they would likely have developed/invented their own techniques. Hard to make specific jutsu to counter something like that.
Mokuton is really the only major kekkei genkai the Senju had, and it was not inheritable. Maybe the Uchiha studied ways to counter mokuton, but with just one single person (even if it was the leader) using it, its debatable how worth it would be.
I wonder actually where the Uzumaki were during this time. Since Hashirama did eventually Marry Mito, I would presume that the Senju were allied with Uzumaki at that point already, and could draw on their sealing knowledge if they needed to.
I wonder how common those chakra chains Kushina used were among the Uzumaki. Were they a total freak mutation that no one but her had. Was it a rare thing that occasionally popped up. Or could even Naruto have learned to wield those chains, if someone had bothered to teach him how. Those chains seemed pretty hax, considering how easily they restrained Kurama and were able to block Sarutobi totally. Its curious how the Uzumaki were apparently an offshoot of the Senju, and yet they seem to have inherited more of the younger brothers abilities than the Senju themselves. Strange that.
Maybe the Senju basically "slept around" as it were while they moved around, and the blood inherited from the younger brother thinned as a result. While the Uzumaki stayed in place and somewhat isolated and perhaps either intentionally or unintentionally married with those of their own clan (cousins and the like) and as such kept the bloodline inherited from the younger brother stronger compared to the Senju through inbreeding (ick).
Maybe they might have tried, but the Uchiha have a far more obvious vulnerability than the Senju do. I mean the Senju don't really have any actual bloodline ability do they? I guess they might have higher than normal chakra and maybe some fast healing and stamina (though it almost seems like Uzumaki got all of that, interestingly enough), but beyond that they don't really have any hax inborn techniques, which means they would likely have developed/invented their own techniques. Hard to make specific jutsu to counter something like that.
Mokuton is really the only major kekkei genkai the Senju had, and it was not inheritable. Maybe the Uchiha studied ways to counter mokuton, but with just one single person (even if it was the leader) using it, its debatable how worth it would be.
I wonder actually where the Uzumaki were during this time. Since Hashirama did eventually Marry Mito, I would presume that the Senju were allied with Uzumaki at that point already, and could draw on their sealing knowledge if they needed to.
I wonder how common those chakra chains Kushina used were among the Uzumaki. Were they a total freak mutation that no one but her had. Was it a rare thing that occasionally popped up. Or could even Naruto have learned to wield those chains, if someone had bothered to teach him how. Those chains seemed pretty hax, considering how easily they restrained Kurama and were able to block Sarutobi totally. Its curious how the Uzumaki were apparently an offshoot of the Senju, and yet they seem to have inherited more of the younger brothers abilities than the Senju themselves. Strange that.
Maybe the Senju basically "slept around" as it were while they moved around, and the blood inherited from the younger brother thinned as a result. While the Uzumaki stayed in place and somewhat isolated and perhaps either intentionally or unintentionally married with those of their own clan (cousins and the like) and as such kept the bloodline inherited from the younger brother stronger compared to the Senju through inbreeding (ick).
RE: The Naruversity
Hm, I assumed that a genjutsu will last for as long as the caster maintains it.
For range: Bringer of Darkness is short-to-mid range, Tayuya's is short-to-long range, Kurenai's tree is short-range, the exam instructor trick is short-to-long range and Kakashi's mindfuck on Sakura is short-range. FYI, short range is 0-5 meters, medium range is 5-10 meters and long range 10+ meters.
When it comes to range, I'd say it's referring how far the genjutsu can be projected to ensnare a target. And IMO, the range they're talking about when they refer to Itachi is a separate type of range which is how far a victim under genjutsu can remain under the caster's control. Something which is probably a result of the user's skill and the nature of the genjutsu.
Hm, I assumed that a genjutsu will last for as long as the caster maintains it.
For range: Bringer of Darkness is short-to-mid range, Tayuya's is short-to-long range, Kurenai's tree is short-range, the exam instructor trick is short-to-long range and Kakashi's mindfuck on Sakura is short-range. FYI, short range is 0-5 meters, medium range is 5-10 meters and long range 10+ meters.
When it comes to range, I'd say it's referring how far the genjutsu can be projected to ensnare a target. And IMO, the range they're talking about when they refer to Itachi is a separate type of range which is how far a victim under genjutsu can remain under the caster's control. Something which is probably a result of the user's skill and the nature of the genjutsu.
RE: The Naruversity
Most of that looks good, but I'm not sure about the duration factor. Like knight504, I thought that unbroken illusionary genjutsu would either be maintained by the user, and genjutsu that implant commands like the Kotoamatsukami would probably involve a one-shot "treatment" that would permanently alter the chakra flow in the target's brain, as would the mental barricades technique.
Also, this part: According to the 3rd databook "The "Toad Confrontation Chant" only has to reach the target's sense of hearing to be a success. On the other hand, because it uses sound, it also has a weakness in that it gives away the users' whereabouts." There's nothing about how the user needs to maintain the sound to keep the illusion going.
While Fukasaku and Shima had sore throats afterwards, I thought that was just from capturing Pain's 3 paths in the 1st place.
Most of that looks good, but I'm not sure about the duration factor. Like knight504, I thought that unbroken illusionary genjutsu would either be maintained by the user, and genjutsu that implant commands like the Kotoamatsukami would probably involve a one-shot "treatment" that would permanently alter the chakra flow in the target's brain, as would the mental barricades technique.
Also, this part: According to the 3rd databook "The "Toad Confrontation Chant" only has to reach the target's sense of hearing to be a success. On the other hand, because it uses sound, it also has a weakness in that it gives away the users' whereabouts." There's nothing about how the user needs to maintain the sound to keep the illusion going.
While Fukasaku and Shima had sore throats afterwards, I thought that was just from capturing Pain's 3 paths in the 1st place.
RE: The Naruversity
You guys have convinced me that duration probably isn't an appropriate stat. All genjutsu being actively maintained or causing permanent changes that persist even after the genjutsu ends makes more sense. Also the thought of genjutsu that make permanent changes to the brain is kind of terrifying. Imagine if Hashirama had invented a version of Bringer of Darkness that permanently blinded the victims? The Uchiha would have been royally fucked. Do you think Kotoamatsukami is unique in that regard?
Yup seems my memory was bad. Rereading chapter 379 I see that Fukasaku and Shima actually stopped singing the moment the 3 paths were captured by the genjutsu and started talking with Jiraiya, and the genjutsu didn't end until he put those stone swords through their chests. I initially thought that they'd kept singing until the bodies were dead.
Perhaps they should have kept singing though, then Asura path wouldn't have been able to sneak up on Jiraiya and rip his arm off.
You guys have convinced me that duration probably isn't an appropriate stat. All genjutsu being actively maintained or causing permanent changes that persist even after the genjutsu ends makes more sense. Also the thought of genjutsu that make permanent changes to the brain is kind of terrifying. Imagine if Hashirama had invented a version of Bringer of Darkness that permanently blinded the victims? The Uchiha would have been royally fucked. Do you think Kotoamatsukami is unique in that regard?
Yup seems my memory was bad. Rereading chapter 379 I see that Fukasaku and Shima actually stopped singing the moment the 3 paths were captured by the genjutsu and started talking with Jiraiya, and the genjutsu didn't end until he put those stone swords through their chests. I initially thought that they'd kept singing until the bodies were dead.
Perhaps they should have kept singing though, then Asura path wouldn't have been able to sneak up on Jiraiya and rip his arm off.
RE: The Naruversity
Because Jiraiya was an idiot.
I mean I think they talked about escape, and while the specifics were not made clear, it was made pretty clear that a way existed for Jiraiya to get out of there. Reverse summoning Jiraiya is as good an explanation as any.
However Jiraiya insisted on going back to see the paths, to confirm what he already suspected, that they were just remotely controlled clones. For some reason, he knew several of them from his journeys (maybe Nagato chose people Jiraiya had come into contact with for some bizarrre "respect the sensei" reason). He then got ambushed and fatally injured and it was too late to do anything.
If Jiraiya had been smart, he would have fled after capturing the one path. He would have lived, and been able to give out his suspicions alive. He might have lacked the total proof he got by going back, but he did not really need it. The examination of the body and that the rods were transmitters and so on would have confirmed it on its own. Jiraiya basically made a mistake in going back to confirm his suspicion rather than fleeing, and that mistake killed him. I guess it was the whole "kill the teacher" moment that usually happens in series like this, where Naruto had to confront Jiraiyas death.
Still, that would be an interesting divergence point. What if Jiraiya acts smart, and actually survives. How would that change everything? Jiraiya would be in bad shape, so Fukasaku would probably offer SM training to Naruto anyway. How would things proceed from there, with Jiraiya alive, if one handed. How would he react to Naruto mastering SM near instantly compared to him. How would he react to functional FRS. To Nagato? Would Naruto still be able to convince Nagato without going through the pain of Jiraiyas death. How would Jiraiya react to war, to edo tenseis, to Naruto mastering KCM and later BM. How would he react to both Minato and Orochimaru coming back. Etc.
Because Jiraiya was an idiot.
I mean I think they talked about escape, and while the specifics were not made clear, it was made pretty clear that a way existed for Jiraiya to get out of there. Reverse summoning Jiraiya is as good an explanation as any.
However Jiraiya insisted on going back to see the paths, to confirm what he already suspected, that they were just remotely controlled clones. For some reason, he knew several of them from his journeys (maybe Nagato chose people Jiraiya had come into contact with for some bizarrre "respect the sensei" reason). He then got ambushed and fatally injured and it was too late to do anything.
If Jiraiya had been smart, he would have fled after capturing the one path. He would have lived, and been able to give out his suspicions alive. He might have lacked the total proof he got by going back, but he did not really need it. The examination of the body and that the rods were transmitters and so on would have confirmed it on its own. Jiraiya basically made a mistake in going back to confirm his suspicion rather than fleeing, and that mistake killed him. I guess it was the whole "kill the teacher" moment that usually happens in series like this, where Naruto had to confront Jiraiyas death.
Still, that would be an interesting divergence point. What if Jiraiya acts smart, and actually survives. How would that change everything? Jiraiya would be in bad shape, so Fukasaku would probably offer SM training to Naruto anyway. How would things proceed from there, with Jiraiya alive, if one handed. How would he react to Naruto mastering SM near instantly compared to him. How would he react to functional FRS. To Nagato? Would Naruto still be able to convince Nagato without going through the pain of Jiraiyas death. How would Jiraiya react to war, to edo tenseis, to Naruto mastering KCM and later BM. How would he react to both Minato and Orochimaru coming back. Etc.
RE: The Naruversity
"Important information in your hands… can be a powerful weapon for your comrades and the village. Because… in times, information is more important than life… and on missions and on the battlefield, people risk their lives to get their hands on it." - Morino Ibiki
Jiraiya took the choice that would give him the most reliable information on one of the most dangerous individuals on the continent. For the reader, it's clear that he should have left because we see him die and know his suspicions are correct. Things would have worked out. But Jiraiya doesn't have our perspective and knowledge and just tried to do what he thought was best.
And I sort of forgot about it but all those bodies being people Jiraiya had met in his travels seems ridiculously contrived.
"Important information in your hands… can be a powerful weapon for your comrades and the village. Because… in times, information is more important than life… and on missions and on the battlefield, people risk their lives to get their hands on it." - Morino Ibiki
Jiraiya took the choice that would give him the most reliable information on one of the most dangerous individuals on the continent. For the reader, it's clear that he should have left because we see him die and know his suspicions are correct. Things would have worked out. But Jiraiya doesn't have our perspective and knowledge and just tried to do what he thought was best.
And I sort of forgot about it but all those bodies being people Jiraiya had met in his travels seems ridiculously contrived.
RE: The Naruversity
But even from his perspective it wasn't that smart. He could have come back later after he'd been healed if it was that important, and he had the corpse that could be examined for evidence. There's got to come a point where the potential small amount of info he had to gain was outweighed by the increasingly likely risk of his death.
What I'm wondering though is why was it necessary for him to go back to find that out? He was in Sage Mode, couldn't he sense Nagato's chakra being transmitted? Or is that something only a perfect sage can do?
But even from his perspective it wasn't that smart. He could have come back later after he'd been healed if it was that important, and he had the corpse that could be examined for evidence. There's got to come a point where the potential small amount of info he had to gain was outweighed by the increasingly likely risk of his death.
What I'm wondering though is why was it necessary for him to go back to find that out? He was in Sage Mode, couldn't he sense Nagato's chakra being transmitted? Or is that something only a perfect sage can do?
RE: The Naruversity
Going by his death monologue, he was probably also swayed by a sense of personal responsibility because of the prophecy, Naruto and the fact that Nagato and Yahiko were his students. And I doubt that coming back would have been a real option.
With the sensing; how'd you mean? I remember some of the ninjas talking about Nagato changing his chakra frequency and Naruto having to stab himself to track him down but I don't recall much else on the subject. :hmm:
Going by his death monologue, he was probably also swayed by a sense of personal responsibility because of the prophecy, Naruto and the fact that Nagato and Yahiko were his students. And I doubt that coming back would have been a real option.
With the sensing; how'd you mean? I remember some of the ninjas talking about Nagato changing his chakra frequency and Naruto having to stab himself to track him down but I don't recall much else on the subject. :hmm:
RE: The Naruversity
I don't mean after Shima left. I mean either right before all 6 paths stabbed Jiraiya at once, at the end of chapter 381, or before he brought himself back to life and wrote on Fukasaku's back in 382. Jiraiya was seriously injured at that point, with his throat being crushed, he might not have ever spoken again, but with medical attention he might have lived.
I'm pretty sure only a perfect sage becomes a sensor-type. Otherwise Jiraiya wouldn't have been caught off guard by Robo-Pain.
Incidentally, anyone know any fics with Jiraiya being awesome? I need some after re-reading that arc.
I don't mean after Shima left. I mean either right before all 6 paths stabbed Jiraiya at once, at the end of chapter 381, or before he brought himself back to life and wrote on Fukasaku's back in 382. Jiraiya was seriously injured at that point, with his throat being crushed, he might not have ever spoken again, but with medical attention he might have lived.
I'm pretty sure only a perfect sage becomes a sensor-type. Otherwise Jiraiya wouldn't have been caught off guard by Robo-Pain.
Incidentally, anyone know any fics with Jiraiya being awesome? I need some after re-reading that arc.
RE: The Naruversity
Possibly, but in that sense you might argue that if he truly believed that Naruto was the one spoken of in the prophecy, then it should have been his responsibility to live and do his best to help Naruto, not throw his life away when he had so little to gain.
He had almost everything figured out, going out to confirm things like that was stupid. Heck, if anything else, he should have arranged it so that Fukasaku would leave, and reverse summon him in 5 seconds. That would have given him enough time to get a look, and then had him escape safely. Or he could have returned later with a Hyuuga, had him/her check the faces out and then quickly flee before the paths arrived. Other possibilities exist aswell. Just going out there the way he did was foolish, and thats that.
Based on what we see from Naruto, perfect SM give absurdly insane sensory abilities. There was a point where Jiraiya was stabbed by one of the rods, and Nagato used that to start sending chakra into his body and attacking him mentally or something. Naruto at that point could have used his SM sensing to sense where that chakra was coming from, and both confirmed from just that, that the paths were just remote controlled corpses, and also find out the location of the real Nagato. Unfortunately, it seems inferior SM such as Jiraiyas does not give sensory abilities, which is why Jiraiya sensed nothing, and why he was also so easily ambushed earlier.
Its doubtfull that Fukasaku would have had time at that point. He would have had to separate from Jiraiya, desummon himself, and then perform the reverse summoning on Jiraiya. Odds are by the time Fukasaku realised how critical the situation was, it was already too late.
Yeah, it seems likely that Jiraiya never developed the sensory abilities of SM due to being imperfect. Whats a bit more strange is that the two toads did not sense anything either, even though they WERE perfect Sages. Then again, its possible that since they were linked with Jiraiya, they had to lower their SM-control to Jiraiyas level due to some stability issue or something, which is why they did not sense anything either.
Possibly, but in that sense you might argue that if he truly believed that Naruto was the one spoken of in the prophecy, then it should have been his responsibility to live and do his best to help Naruto, not throw his life away when he had so little to gain.
He had almost everything figured out, going out to confirm things like that was stupid. Heck, if anything else, he should have arranged it so that Fukasaku would leave, and reverse summon him in 5 seconds. That would have given him enough time to get a look, and then had him escape safely. Or he could have returned later with a Hyuuga, had him/her check the faces out and then quickly flee before the paths arrived. Other possibilities exist aswell. Just going out there the way he did was foolish, and thats that.
Based on what we see from Naruto, perfect SM give absurdly insane sensory abilities. There was a point where Jiraiya was stabbed by one of the rods, and Nagato used that to start sending chakra into his body and attacking him mentally or something. Naruto at that point could have used his SM sensing to sense where that chakra was coming from, and both confirmed from just that, that the paths were just remote controlled corpses, and also find out the location of the real Nagato. Unfortunately, it seems inferior SM such as Jiraiyas does not give sensory abilities, which is why Jiraiya sensed nothing, and why he was also so easily ambushed earlier.
Its doubtfull that Fukasaku would have had time at that point. He would have had to separate from Jiraiya, desummon himself, and then perform the reverse summoning on Jiraiya. Odds are by the time Fukasaku realised how critical the situation was, it was already too late.
Yeah, it seems likely that Jiraiya never developed the sensory abilities of SM due to being imperfect. Whats a bit more strange is that the two toads did not sense anything either, even though they WERE perfect Sages. Then again, its possible that since they were linked with Jiraiya, they had to lower their SM-control to Jiraiyas level due to some stability issue or something, which is why they did not sense anything either.
RE: The Naruversity
Jiraiya outlines his reasoning pretty clearly here and here. It looks solid enough to me, especially considering that he's a pivotal part of the prophecy which is something that's strongly influenced his actions for years. Man feels like he's got the fate of the world on his shoulders and it's not difficult to see how he'd think that running away half-cocked would end badly in the long run.
Jiraiya outlines his reasoning pretty clearly here and here. It looks solid enough to me, especially considering that he's a pivotal part of the prophecy which is something that's strongly influenced his actions for years. Man feels like he's got the fate of the world on his shoulders and it's not difficult to see how he'd think that running away half-cocked would end badly in the long run.
RE: The Naruversity
Doesn't stop me from wishing that Fukasaku will suddenly reveal that he did reverse-summon Jiraiya after he left, and he's been in a coma at Mount Myoboku all this time, and the reason he never told Naruto is that Jiraiya's chances of pulling through/waking up didn't look good, and Naruto needed to focus on learning Senjutsu and beating Pain.
Kabuto couldn't find Jiraiya's body, after all.
Doesn't stop me from wishing that Fukasaku will suddenly reveal that he did reverse-summon Jiraiya after he left, and he's been in a coma at Mount Myoboku all this time, and the reason he never told Naruto is that Jiraiya's chances of pulling through/waking up didn't look good, and Naruto needed to focus on learning Senjutsu and beating Pain.
Kabuto couldn't find Jiraiya's body, after all.
RE: The Naruversity
Wasn't there also some destiny stuff implied in his death ?
IIRC we had a flashback where the great toad told him a prophecy that he "had" to travel a lot, to meet tons of different people or something. And THAT is why he recognized some of the path of Nagato, to even begin to have a suspicions that those people are actually "dead" and/or controlled.
But yeah, imo Jiraiya's death was badass. Exactly as knight504 said, it reinforced the monologue by Ibiki during the chuunin exams.
Wasn't there also some destiny stuff implied in his death ?
IIRC we had a flashback where the great toad told him a prophecy that he "had" to travel a lot, to meet tons of different people or something. And THAT is why he recognized some of the path of Nagato, to even begin to have a suspicions that those people are actually "dead" and/or controlled.
But yeah, imo Jiraiya's death was badass. Exactly as knight504 said, it reinforced the monologue by Ibiki during the chuunin exams.
Part 1 Timeline (Knyght)
RE: The Naruversity
Part 1 Timeline
1) Graduation - March*
2) D-rank missions - 1 month
3) Wave Mission - 4-5 weeks**
4) D-rank missions - 1 month
5) Chuunin Exam - 1st July - 1 month, 5 days
6) Tournament/Invasion - 1 day
7) Hokage's Funeral - Two days post-invasion
8) Itachi/Kisame - Three days post-invasion***
9) Tsunade Search/Rasengan Training - 4-5 weeks****
10) Sasuke Retrieval Mission - 2 days*****
11) Training Trip - 3 months post-Retrieval
Part 1 = 10 months approx.
* We're not given a date in the manga so this is matched up with the Japanese school year. It has to be long before October considering Naruto didn't turn 13 until after the Sand/Sound Invasion and the Chuunin Exam was on the 1st July. This gives us just over three months before the Chuunin Exam.
** A week or less to walk to Wave Country, 1 week of training, 2 weeks waiting for the bridge to finish and then a week or less to reach Konoha. It took 3 days for Team Kakashi to run to Suna so I assume it took longer to reach Wave County when walking with Tazuna.
*** They first appeared in the same chapter as Hiruzen's funeral but when we see them again, no-one's in funeral clothes and Naruto isn't wearing bandages anymore so I assumed it was a day or so afterwards.
**** 3 days for the 1st stage, 3 weeks for the 2nd stage and 1 week for the 3rd stage and then the travel time back to Konoha.
***** The first day has Sasuke wake up, his fight with Naruto and then the Sound Four's offer. The next day is the actual retrieval mission.
Part 1 Timeline
1) Graduation - March*
2) D-rank missions - 1 month
3) Wave Mission - 4-5 weeks**
4) D-rank missions - 1 month
5) Chuunin Exam - 1st July - 1 month, 5 days
6) Tournament/Invasion - 1 day
7) Hokage's Funeral - Two days post-invasion
8) Itachi/Kisame - Three days post-invasion***
9) Tsunade Search/Rasengan Training - 4-5 weeks****
10) Sasuke Retrieval Mission - 2 days*****
11) Training Trip - 3 months post-Retrieval
Part 1 = 10 months approx.
* We're not given a date in the manga so this is matched up with the Japanese school year. It has to be long before October considering Naruto didn't turn 13 until after the Sand/Sound Invasion and the Chuunin Exam was on the 1st July. This gives us just over three months before the Chuunin Exam.
** A week or less to walk to Wave Country, 1 week of training, 2 weeks waiting for the bridge to finish and then a week or less to reach Konoha. It took 3 days for Team Kakashi to run to Suna so I assume it took longer to reach Wave County when walking with Tazuna.
*** They first appeared in the same chapter as Hiruzen's funeral but when we see them again, no-one's in funeral clothes and Naruto isn't wearing bandages anymore so I assumed it was a day or so afterwards.
**** 3 days for the 1st stage, 3 weeks for the 2nd stage and 1 week for the 3rd stage and then the travel time back to Konoha.
***** The first day has Sasuke wake up, his fight with Naruto and then the Sound Four's offer. The next day is the actual retrieval mission.
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Hiden Ninjutsu/Hijutsu (Knyght)
Hiden Ninjutsu/Hijutsu
These are ninjutsu that are created by an individual and only taught to their families to be passed down through the generations orally or with secret scrolls. They are more complex than standard ninjutsu - some involving certain requirement like becoming an insect hive or building up excess far - which make it very difficult for others to learn, even with doujutsu like the Byakugan and Sharingan. Over the generations, these clans often become conditioned towards their particular ninjutsu style so that they become more powerful and efficient in their usage e.g. the Akimichi Clan are capable of digesting food and building up fat at a faster rate than regular people. This allows these clans to typically be superior even if others learn how to do their jutsu.
A few hijutsu take these requirements even further as the user must undergo physical modifications to use them. Kidoumaru and Suigetsu come from clans which use kinjutsu on their offspring to let them use their clan's abilities i.e. spider-based ninjutsu and liquefaction. Deidara and Kakuzu are also examples of this after a fashion, as they are able to use Exploding Clay and Earth Grudge Fear - jutsu styles they created - after stealing and using the kinjutsu from their villages.
These are ninjutsu that are created by an individual and only taught to their families to be passed down through the generations orally or with secret scrolls. They are more complex than standard ninjutsu - some involving certain requirement like becoming an insect hive or building up excess far - which make it very difficult for others to learn, even with doujutsu like the Byakugan and Sharingan. Over the generations, these clans often become conditioned towards their particular ninjutsu style so that they become more powerful and efficient in their usage e.g. the Akimichi Clan are capable of digesting food and building up fat at a faster rate than regular people. This allows these clans to typically be superior even if others learn how to do their jutsu.
A few hijutsu take these requirements even further as the user must undergo physical modifications to use them. Kidoumaru and Suigetsu come from clans which use kinjutsu on their offspring to let them use their clan's abilities i.e. spider-based ninjutsu and liquefaction. Deidara and Kakuzu are also examples of this after a fashion, as they are able to use Exploding Clay and Earth Grudge Fear - jutsu styles they created - after stealing and using the kinjutsu from their villages.
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RE: The Naruversity
I assumed that Hijutsu is just an abbreviation of Hiden Ninjutsu and there's no real distinction between. Deidara, Kakuzu and Suigetsu's jutsu are all classed as Hiden/Ninjutsu when only Suigetsu's would be family secret techniques. And apparently the Hijutsu part of the name was dropped from Haku's jutsu in the databook entry anyway. They were also water senbon, not ice.
Hashirama's Mokuton jutsu looks like the only jutsu which keeps the "Hijutsu" part in the databook, yet it doesn't actually have Hiden in the jutsu info. Though that one got retconned into a kekkei genkai anyway.
I assumed that Hijutsu is just an abbreviation of Hiden Ninjutsu and there's no real distinction between. Deidara, Kakuzu and Suigetsu's jutsu are all classed as Hiden/Ninjutsu when only Suigetsu's would be family secret techniques. And apparently the Hijutsu part of the name was dropped from Haku's jutsu in the databook entry anyway. They were also water senbon, not ice.
Hashirama's Mokuton jutsu looks like the only jutsu which keeps the "Hijutsu" part in the databook, yet it doesn't actually have Hiden in the jutsu info. Though that one got retconned into a kekkei genkai anyway.
Itachi's Mysterious Sickness (Knyght)
Itachi's Mysterious Sickness
Looks like someone figured out what sickness Itachi was afflicted with a few years back, and it's not the typical conclusion that it was tuberculosis.
What I always wondered was if Itachi could have survived and if he actually to live instead of just hanging on until Sasuke could finish him. I got the impression that whilst he took a lot of meds, he never bothered getting help from a medic-nin given his status and upcoming assisted suicide.
Looks like someone figured out what sickness Itachi was afflicted with a few years back, and it's not the typical conclusion that it was tuberculosis.
What I always wondered was if Itachi could have survived and if he actually to live instead of just hanging on until Sasuke could finish him. I got the impression that whilst he took a lot of meds, he never bothered getting help from a medic-nin given his status and upcoming assisted suicide.
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