Naruto The Narutoversity

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

I still think Kawarimi makes more sense as a time/space ninjutsu than as some convoluted combination of telekinesis and Shunshin.

I mean if genin can really just telekinetically reach out and grab and move things around with their chakra without using a specific medium (such as Gaara's sand, chakra threads, elemental ninjutsu, bijuu chakra arms, shadow jutsu, etc) then we should really see a lot more of that. Instead that kind of pure telekinesis is something we've only seen from Nagato.

Not to mention that that definition of Kawarimi could be easily weaponized. Just grab an object directly behind you when you are facing your opponent and leave out the "bring the object to a stop" part of the jutsu. You've just created railgun no jutsu.

My headcanon is that Kawarimi is a variant of the summoning jutsu. To use it you have to mark a specific object of similar mass within a short distance with a seal that allows you to swap places with it (similar in concept to Hiraishin but a two-way swap and obviously vastly more limited in power and range). Because the Fire Nation is heavily forested, chopping up trees and using a log is common for Konoha-nin. Carrying pre-prepared logs around in storage seals is also relatively commonplace for genin and chuunin. However, because it's difficult to prepare or unseal a Kawarimi-compatible object in a fight without being seen by the enemy, Kawarimi usage is relatively rare and most elite ninja will learn and use a more dependable and versatile defensive jutsu and stop using Kawarimi. One exception to this is for ninja who regularly utilize clones. There are variants of most clone jutsu that summon clones pre-marked with the Kawarimi seal and any clone capable of using jutsu can mark itself at will, allowing the real ninja to easily swap with their own clones.

So yeah, that's my explanation for Kawarimi - easy to actually cast the jutsu, difficult to prepare a target to swap with without the opponent detecting it. So it's rarely used unless the ninja has significant prep time, such as when Sakura was guarding Naruto and Sasuke in the Forest of Death. She had plenty of time to set up traps so she also set up a bunch of Kawarimi sealed logs and hid them in the trees nearby. That's why she was able to use Kawarimi so many times in a row against Zaku.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

I believe I've mentioned this before, but my head-canon has Ninja signing what's basically a log-summoning contract in the academy. Jiraiya let Nagato sign it, or made the 3 orphans their own (which should easily be within his capabilities, because, well, seal master.) I wouldn't be surprised if a common d-rank mission is chopping up a load of logs and delivering them to a small-but-vital ninja department who's role is to "add them to the contract."

Kawamari consists of summoning a log, and using the smoke as a cover to GTFO out of there and hide. Simple as.

Pein was willing to use such a basic move against Jiraiya because it wasn't his real body, and he had the Naraka path?

Have we ever actually seen a ninja use the Kawarimi to switch with a clone? Orochimaru at some point brought in an earth clone when fighting Sasuke in part 1, but do we know whether he actually used Kawarimi?

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

There's a few examples of telekinetic type skills actually: Sasuke levitating a kunai with chakra from his feet to throw at the Ame genin, Orochimaru levitating the Kusanagi to stab Hiruzen, the Kanashibari jutsu that immobilizes the target with an invisible force and Yashamaru controlling multiple kunai to kill Gaara are the most obvious examples.

Some other ones that are more debatable is when Sasori floating his puppet scroll, Konan's paper, Itachi's crow clone which can apparently fly, the Tsuchikage's flight jutsu, the medical jutsu that healed Neji had his hair float above the wound and the Shuriken Kage Bunshin which creates shuriken in mid-air and in motion.

And any resemblance Kawarimi has to Shunshin is purely that it looks similar to an outsider observer whilst having different mechanics. Trying to a fling an object with the Kawarimi wouldn't work simply because the jutsu doesn't work like that; you'd have to remake it so you'd end up with a different jutsu.

Edit: It was a shadow clone in canon. I believe Deidara replaced himself with a clay clone when fighting Naruto and Kakashi switched himself with a lightning shadow clone against Pein.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

Wasn't Sasuke just using the tree-climbing exercise to throw that Kunai at Oboro with his foot?

The technique Orochimaru uses to stab the 3rd is apparently called "Kusanagi no Tsurugi: KÅ« no Tachi" and might only be usable with the legendary blade.

Kanashibari... I've got nothing, but I always figured that the Manipulating Attack Blades technique that Yashamaru used was a crappy inefficient version of chakra strings.

Konan's paper jutsu would probably come under yang-predominant animation techniques, much like Jiraiya's hair jutsu. Itachi's Crow Clone Jutsu actually uses summoned crows as a medium, meaning it apparently uses less chakra. Did the clone ever fly without dispersing into crows first?

I think we've seen Naruto jump and make clones that are also ascending, which means that you can clone momentum. That's actually quite scary.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

Wasn't Sasuke just using the tree-climbing exercise to throw that Kunai at Oboro with his foot?

Yep. Still counts. If anything it means you can do strange stuff with raw chakra.

The technique Orochimaru uses to stab the 3rd is apparently called "Kusanagi no Tsurugi: KÅ« no Tachi" and might only be usable with the legendary blade.

Y'know that never even cross my mind. I figured it was because he used it for the sword that he named it such. Like Sasuke naming his chakra flow after his sword despite it not being limited to the sword.

Edit: The Sword of Kusanagi has been summoned by Orochimaru from inside himself. He controls it as he pleases with this jutsu specific to him. It boasts a sharpness sufficient to compel a cry of hurt out of Enma, who possesses a diamond-hard body...!! When the Sword of Kusanagi flies into the air, everything that stands before its edge is prey to be hacked and slashed and murdered, their blood soaking the blade in an unsettling fashion.

Sounds like it's Orochimaru rather than the sword.

I always figured that the Manipulating Attack Blades technique that Yashamaru used was a crappy inefficient version of chakra strings.

I thought it was but it's apparently "casting chakra over an area".

Did the clone ever fly without dispersing into crows first?

No idea. I remember it being in this half-crow, half-clone state once. But even then, all that was in a genjutsu IIRC.

I think we've seen Naruto jump and make clones that are also ascending, which means that you can clone momentum. That's actually quite scary.

Really? I thought whenever he cloned them they were fixed in place until gravity pulled them down. When did this happen?

And didn't Enma fly about in his staff form at one point, to free Hiruzen from the Mokuton? I thought that was weird but I might be remembering the anime.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

Most of those aren't really telekinesis or aren't "pure" telekinesis. Sasuke used the tree climbing skill to stick the kunai to his foot and just let go of it after swinging his leg. Basic physics using centripetal force there. The mechanics of Kanashibari is not clearly explained, it could be causing paralysis by attacking nerves or the opponent's mind. Konan's paper only works on a specific substance same as Gaara's sand or water jutsu, she couldn't grab just anything with it. Sasori and Yashamaru were almost certainly using chakra threads as a medium to lift things. Crows can fly, so it's not that surprising that a crow clone can also fly. We don't know how the Tsuchikage's flight works, but considering his kekkei genkai it's possible he's just lifting himself with particles of dust. Orochimaru's levitation is probably a property of the sword itself and not a jutsu, because otherwise you'd think he'd use it again, that would be a very useful jutsu. Shuriken Shadow clone is cloning the original shuriken's momentum, not imparting new momentum on them telekinetically.

The medical jutsu does seem to fit, but obviously that's not something that's practical for combat.

Edit: Ninja'd badly. Note to self, preview post before posting reply.

I'm struggling to understand what you mean when you say that any resemblance Kawarimi has to Shunshin is purely visual. How exactly does Kawarimi accomplish the "high speed movement" stage used to swap with the object if not by boosting the legs with chakra and running really fast or by teleporting with time/space manipulation? Are they telekinetically grabbing the object and pulling themselves away with their chakra? Cause that sounds like it would be incredibly useful as just a general skill rather than some highly limited situational jutsu. If I were a ninja and I could pull myself around with an invisible chakra grappling hook I'd drop all that "pulling another object towards me to swap places with it" baggage and just constantly swing around like fucking Spiderman. That would be boss.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

Yep. Still counts. If anything it means you can do strange stuff with raw chakra.

But apparently only in relation to one's own body. Then again, when you think back to the damage Naruto did to that tree when he was 1st learning tree-climbing, and think about what that would do to a person... It still isn't so much telekinesis as almost a miniature, far, far-less powerful, non-full body version of Pein's Shinra Tensei and Banshō Ten'in.

Y'know that never even cross my mind. I figured it was because he used it for the sword that he named it such. Like Sasuke naming his chakra flow after his sword despite it not being limited to the sword.

Edit: The Sword of Kusanagi has been summoned by Orochimaru from inside himself. He controls it as he pleases with this jutsu specific to him. It boasts a sharpness sufficient to compel a cry of hurt out of Enma, who possesses a diamond-hard body...!! When the Sword of Kusanagi flies into the air, everything that stands before its edge is prey to be hacked and slashed and murdered, their blood soaking the blade in an unsettling fashion.

Sounds like it's Orochimaru rather than the sword.

Properties of the sword make it possible or feasible to use the technique on it? I realise I'm reaching here, but you'd think he'd use it more unless there's some sort of limitation.

I thought it was but it's apparently "casting chakra over an area".

Yep. Chiyo apparently had a version that used chakra threads, but it's not the same technique. So it's essentially an application of the principles behind tree-climbing and water-walking. I wonder if it's theoretically possible for Naruto to have a version of the technique (without KCM) that uses Rasengans instead? Introducing a spin into the "casted area."

Really? I thought whenever he cloned them they were fixed in place until gravity pulled them down. When did this happen?

Erm... *thinks* *thinks some more* ...

Damn, just realised where I got the idea. Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm 2: The Bell-Stealing Drill. One of the quick-time events has Kakashi fire off a huge water dragon, which travels into the air in an arc before descending towards Naruto and Sakura. Sakura throws Naruto at the dragon, and while he's travelling diagonally upwards, he uses the Kage Bunshin and a whole bunch of clones (travelling in the same direction with the same speed) basically shed the dragon before descending on Kakashi like human missiles.

It was awesome, but non-canon. It might have been in the manga, but I have no idea where? When Naruto's running and makes clones, and the clones maintain pace with him? *shrugs*

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

Are they telekinetically grabbing the object and pulling themselves away with their chakra? Cause that sounds like it would be incredibly useful as just a general skill rather than some highly limited situational jutsu.

Was that not clear? It's why I said "propel it and the user" and mentioned that what Kakashi did was different because it involved running around from the Kawarimi's original explanation. It'd make a nice general skill but it's an effect that achieved through chakra being moulded in a certain way and in a certain quantity like any other jutsu. You'd have to do something different if you wanted to swing around like Spiderman, assuming the effect can be achieved in any other way.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

Right, sorry about that.

What I was trying to get at, is if that's how the jutsu works then why is it used so rarely? It should be easy to just cut out a few handseals and drop the "object swap" part of Kawarimi and invent an even easier to use E-ranked Chakra Grappling Hook no Jutsu. Pull yourself around with chakra bungee cords, snatch objects out of other peoples hands, pull the opponent toward you while shouting "Get over here!" like you're Scorpion... such a jutsu would be incredibly useful and versatile. I just don't see why that particular effect should be limited to only one specific jutsu that can only be used to swap places with mysteriously convenient logs. There are plenty of examples of people inventing variants of jutsu such as Naruto and his rasengans and Sasuke and his chidoris. That's why there's tons of different clone and transformation jutsu, with the academy ones being only the most basic and limited versions. Why aren't there a bunch of variations of Chakra Grappling Hook Replacement jutsu?

That's why I like my own theory that Kawarimi is a situational, low range, low powered variation of the summoning jutsu. That way Kawarimi isn't unique for no good reason and there are a million different higher ranked variations of it, and it explains why it's so rarely used.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

To me it feels like Kawarimi used when it’s needed and when the circumstances are ideal. And I don’t think it’s as simple as dropping a few hand-seals to get it to do something else. Many of the variations we see are building off the original to create something more but changing the Kawarimi in the way feels more like working backwards to break it down and redesign. And then there’s the complexity involved. The concept behind the Chidori is relatively easy to understand (generate lightning chakra, focus into hand and shape discharge) but incredibly difficult to execute. But I think the Kawarimi (and other ninjutsu with interesting effects) is the opposite where the execution is easy but the mechanics behind how it works are more difficult to understand. This may be applicable to other supplementary jutsu since what they actually do can be unusual.

There’d be numerous limitations for this kind of Kawarimi. You need a target for one thing and what kind of target is limited by the jutsu and your skill. It probably needs to be line-of-sight or you have to have an accurate awareness of the target’s position. There’s disorientation when you leave the Kawarimi and tunnel vision whilst it’s in motion, which only worsens every time (and could serve as an explanation for Sakura biting Zaku; she couldn’t trust herself to use a weapon so she was forced to take the most direct approach she could). You also need a moment of opportunity for it to work since it’s meant for escaping an attack; it’d be a lot less effective if your usage is noticed and possibly predicted since it’d leave you vulnerable, such as when Gaara didn’t replace himself until Lee shut his eyes from the pain. And I think the higher up the ladder you go, the harder it is to pull off a Kawarimi against an equal opponent.

Summoning just feels too complex and the process itself for that version of Kawarimi feels overly complication. The Hiraishin (i.e. self-summoning) is S-rank whilst the regular summoning is C-rank which suggests that involving yourself in the summon is a lot more advanced. I could believe that switches places with something might be less difficult than just self-summoning might be less difficult but it still seems above what most academy students could do.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

Honestly that's kind of the same reason I don't like your theory, as that version of Kawarimi is remarkably complex. Reaching out and grabbing something with your chakra, pulling yourself away while simultaneously pulling the object towards you (wouldn't that just result in you and the object meeting in the middle or only one of you moving very far? I would think you'd need some kind of stationary anchor to pull against to get very far), doing this at ridiculous speeds faster than the eye can follow, bringing yourself and object to an instant stop without harming yourself or the object from the whiplash, and then on top off all that covering it up with a puff of smoke or a clone. That's a lot of shit going on in one E-rank jutsu. Not to mention that the object is always a log, how does that work? Is the ninja ripping out a section of a nearby tree with brute force with their chakra? After performing the replacement does a nearby tree suddenly collapse because several feet of it's trunk is missing?

Short range summon switching with a sealed object of comparable mass might seem a tad overpowered for a genin but at least it's a relatively simple concept. And it explains everything about the canon usage of the jutsu, from why it's usually a log to why it's used so rarely.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

Well, I figured it'd be inevitable we'd up with multiple explanations when it comes to the academy jutsu. I feel like I could rewrite that post in my own words about your version. :lol:

Agree to disagree? For now...

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

I'm telling you guys, log summoning contract with a modified and simplified specialised summoning jutsu. Summon a log, move away quickly while your opponent's attention is drawn to the log/distracted by the smoke.

Incidentally, we've known since chapter 4 or so that the tiger seal is associated with fire jutsu. The last seal for the Kawarimi is the snake seal, which is apparently linked to Earth release techniques. I don't know whether that has anything to do with anything, but...

 

[Knyght]

Tried out some more...

Shuriken Shadow Clone Jutsu (Official Version)

This ninjutsu combines ninja tools with ninjutsu to multiply the number of shuriken that the user has thrown at the target, allowing it to increase from one to a thousand with its usage. This removes the need for prior preparation and because the shadow clones are real and not illusions, all the shadow blades are equally lethal. Despite requiring far less chakra than the Shadow Clone and Multiple Shadow Clone techniques, the difficulty of cloning a material object separately is significantly higher. On top of that, these clones are created whilst the tool is in mid-flight which creates a limited window for the jutsu to be used and their momentum is cloned at the same time. This ninjutsu can be used on all kinds of tools and weapons despite its name, leading it to also be known as the Ninja Tool Shadow Clone Technique

Clone Great Explosion (Official Version)

This ninjutsu allows the user to make their shadow clone detonate in a violent explosion. It works by destabilising the chakra that composes to shadow clone to the point that it is forced to dispel as if it had taken a lethal wound, a result of its unstable state that prevents it from maintain its form. But instead of turning into a smoke, the energy is released in a destructive fashion.

The jutsu can only be used with a clone created by the Shadow Clone Jutsu and no other type of kind, including the Multiple Shadow Clone Jutsu. This is a result of both the quantity and quality of the chakra that composes them as well as the stronger link between them and the user. The disadvantage of this is that it uses up all of the clone’s chakra so it cannot return to the user to replenish their reserves or transmit their memories. Another limitation is that the clone is not able to detonate themselves; only their creator can use this jutsu on them through their connection which makes it dangerous, and potentially wasteful, to use when the clone is not within their line-of-sight.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

Genjutsu and "Unbreakable Genjutsu"

Short new theory regarding Genjutsu. How exactly do the "unbreakable" genjutsu like the Bringer of Darkness technique (if the 3rd can't dispel it, it's probably unbeatable,) the Tsukiyomi, and the Demonic Illusion: Toad Confrontation Chant work?

Regular genjutsu work by manipulating the flow of chakra in the victim's brain to cause a disruption in the brain, altering the chakra flow of the opponent's cerebral nervous system, to effect their five senses. I'm thinking that chakra imbalanced towards spiritual energy, or Yin, manipulates the form of the victim's chakra into new shapes/flows.

So are unbreakable genjutsu unbreakable because of the density/potency of the chakra that's redirecting the victim's chakra flow? Yin-balanced chakra that's so dense/potent/high-quality that the Dispel technique, stopping and restarting one's chakra flow, isn't enough to "dislodge it?"

The Bringer of Darkness technique is an A-rank jutsu used by Hashirama, so perhaps it creates a very dense/concentrated/more solid blockage in the part of the victim's chakra circulatory system that interacts with the eyes.

Uchiha have strong spiritual energy due to their heritage, and a fragment of the Juubi's chakra might be involved in there somewhere, so their Yin-predominant chakra is very strong. The chakra used in the Tsukiyomi is of such high-quality that it is not only near-impossible to dislodge, it is still fluid enough that the "world" of the jutu can be adjusted "on the fly" to the user's wishes, unlike most genjutsu that have fixed functions, such as the Tree Binding Death. The Tsukiyomi works via eye contact, as do all sharingan genjutsu, due to the user's chakra entering the victim's circulatory system via the eyes, which are of course close to the brain.

The Toad Confrontation Chant is fuelled by Sage Chakra, which is more potent than the regular stuff. The technique also apparently took Fukasaku and Shiima years to master, so perhaps learning Yin-Yang transformation for natural energy is harder?

Or maybe instead of a 1/3 Physical/Spiritual/Natural energy balance, it's more like a 1/3 Natural, 1/2 Spiritual, and 1/6 Physical energy, and the hard part is making sure you can do that without turning to stone. After all, creating sage chakra is all about balance, while yin-yang is all about intentional imbalance.

Incidentally, the mental barricades that Pain implanted in that rain-nin that Inochi was trying to read the mind of are apparently classified as genjutsu, which could be explained as extremely dense chakra constructs permanently blocking off areas of the chakra circulatory system "capillaries" that pass through certain sections of the brain.

This also could explain how Deidara apparently trained his eyes to break genjutsu. He could have strengthened the chakra pathways in his eyes, or accelerated the chakra flowing through them to a point where genjutsu couldn't "stick," where the assailant's chakra is washed away, like someone trying to place a dam in whitewater rapids. Unless it's a very high-quality "dam," like sharingan genjutsu.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

RE: The Naruversity

Bringer of Darkness might have been "unbreakable" because Hashirama was a zombi with unlimited chakra

I always thought Tsukuyomi was "unbreakable" because it happens too fast in real time. Sasuke did manage to break it, though, but then he had a Sharingan and probably did train specifically against it

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

Bringer of Darkness was an A-rank genjutsu. The only other one of those we've seen is the "Temple of Nirvana" technique Kabuto used at the Chuunin exams (Tsukuyomi and the Toad Chant are both unranked.)

The Temple of Nirvana can be dispelled fairly easily (Sakura,) but can also effect an entire stadium full of people. The BoD can be used to effect at least 3 people (although two of them were shadow clones,) and is the kind of jutsu Senju Hashirama would use against Sarutobi Hiruzen. It has to be bad-ass.

Can genjutsu effect the shadow clones of it's victim? I mean, the clones still draw chakra from the user, going by what Kakashi says in chapter 3, so you could probably design a genjutsu that allows you to "piggy-back" your chakra through that connection. I mean, Kurama can send chakra through that connection, seeing as one of Naruto's clone starting going postal during the wind training.

Seeing as how Naruto can receive memories and natural energy from clones, it's a two-way connection too, so you could probably have a genjutsu that when cast on a clone can ensnare the original.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

It's less "the Bringer-of-Darkness genjutsu is unbreakable" and more "Hashirama's Bringer-of-Darkness is unbreakable", plus the Temple of Nirvana was used on a entire stadium of people rather than just three dudes. I'd imagine that the higher up the ranks you go, the harder a genjutsu is to break but an "unbreakable" genjutsu would only happen if the user is just that good.

Tsukuyomi, Toad Confrontation Chant and Kotoamatsumaki are probably the only genjutsu we've seen that are 'unbreakable' by design. Two of which being advanced kekkei genkai jutsu and one being senjutsu and required years of training to learn due to the harmony required.

I'd think that trying to send a genjutsu through the connection between a shadow clone and the original would be impossible. It just feels too complex overall to manage. And Kurama sent his chakra through the clone's seal.

Theory looks cool anyway.

 

[datakim]

RE: The Naruversity

I'd think that trying to send a genjutsu through the connection between a shadow clone and the original would be impossible. It just feels too complex overall to manage. And Kurama sent his chakra through the clone's seal.

Theory looks cool anyway.

I seem to recall Itachi caught Kakashis shadow clone in a genjutsu, and it did not really have an effect. Infact for some reason it barely affected the clone, maybe implying that shadow clones have genjutsu resistance or something.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

I think they're effected by genjutsu but can't be mentally harmed by them. So where we see characters who end up being incapacitated from a genjutsu like what Sasuke did to C, shadow clones are somehow immune to that effect but still experience the illusion itself like Hiruzen's clones being as blind as he was. That probably also means they can't be mind controlled like when we have characters laying a mindfuck to force answers out of someone.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

It's less "the Bringer-of-Darkness genjutsu is unbreakable" and more "Hashirama's Bringer-of-Darkness is unbreakable", plus the Temple of Nirvana was used on a entire stadium of people rather than just three dudes. I'd imagine that the higher up the ranks you go, the harder a genjutsu is to break but an "unbreakable" genjutsu would only happen if the user is just that good.

Tsukuyomi, Toad Confrontation Chant and Kotoamatsumaki are probably the only genjutsu we've seen that are 'unbreakable' by design. Two of which being advanced kekkei genkai jutsu and one being senjutsu and required years of training to learn due to the harmony required.

Well, yes, but the skill of the user isn't the only factor. It was an A-rank genjutsu, so it's possible that it would be harder to break when used by a genin than it would to break a c-rank genjutsu used by a jounin. I've been using the word "unbreakable" as shorthand for "In the hands of a master, if this is used on you, you're f*cked, unless you're also elite as hell." I mean, Sasuke broke Itachi's Tsukiyomi, so obviously that's not literally unbreakable.

Perhaps BoD is a step below Tsukiyomi, Toad Confrontation Chant and Kotoamatsumaki, but remember that part 1 Edo Hash's Mokuton was nowhere near as impressive as he was when alive and a part 2 Edo. So why would his genjutsu be? So if we assume that Hash's genjutsu were as reduced as his ninjutsu, and then remember that Hiruzen still couldn't break the BoD when under it, then perhaps the BoD isn't that far below the other "unbreakables."

And how much do you think genjutsu can be "customised?" I figured that the Temple of Nirvana technique was specifically designed to cover a large target area, at the expense of being relatively easier to dispel. You could probably create a variant that works on the opposite end of the "spectrum," that can only be used against a few people, but is much harder to break.

I'd think that trying to send a genjutsu through the connection between a shadow clone and the original would be impossible. It just feels too complex overall to manage. And Kurama sent his chakra through the clone's seal.

So... only Itachi or someone with the most hax genjutsu skills could do it?

I seem to recall Itachi caught Kakashis shadow clone in a genjutsu, and it did not really have an effect. Infact for some reason it barely affected the clone, maybe implying that shadow clones have genjutsu resistance or something.

I don't recall this. Do you remember what chapter or arc this happened in?

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

Perhaps The Bringer of Darkness genjutsu may have been effectively impossible to break because it was so simple? All it did was blind the victim, when most genjutsu we see create elaborate faux realities for the victim to experience, paralyze their bodies, and/or try to manipulate the way they perceive the world in subtle and complex ways that influence their minds in less direct ways (such as making them get lost or fall asleep).

It could be that as a general rule, the more complex the illusion, the more fragile and easy to dispel the chakra flow is, but you can strengthen that flow by using more chakra and increasing your skill with genjutsu (increasing the rank of the jutsu in other words). For example, it's probably possible to create a D-rank genjutsu that binds the opponent within a tree, but the illusion would be so fragile that all but the weakest genin could break free in an instant just by moulding some more chakra to fill their coils and "flushing" the foreign chakra out of their system. the Tree Binding Death would have to be at least B-rank to stand a chance of ensnaring a Jounin level opponent. So casting a genjutsu is always a balancing act, where you try to find the best balance between complexity/power of the illusion and the ease of dispelling it for your opponent. If you underestimate your opponent and make the illusion too complex they'll break free of it on their own. If you overestimate their skill and make it too simple they won't be as impaired by the genjutsu as they otherwise could be. Even if you get the balance perfect and incapacitate your opponent, they might still have allies that can free them from the genjutsu, so you have to decide whether to risk trying to get all of them with a perfectly balanced genjutsu before they can free each other, or whether you should simplify your genjutsu to the point that even Kai is ineffective against it and hope that those much weaker but "unbreakable" genjutsu are enough to turn the battle in your favor.

So basically, if Hashirama had tried to use an A-rank version of Tree Binding Death on Hiruzen, the illusion would be too powerful and complex to ensnare such a skilled opponent and he either would have been able to break free on his own or Enma would have immediately dispelled it for him. But but using an relatively very basic and simple illusion that didn't actually incapacitate or even particularly impair Hiruzen (blindness) and "upscaling" it to A-rank, he made the genjutsu "unbreakable" even for Hiruzen and Enma.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

I like this explanation, it makes a lot of sense.

So in the context of your idea, the Toad Confrontation Chant would be complex enough to to completely bind and paralyse the victim, but due to being a complex jutsu that took Ma and Pa Toad years to learn, and being fuelled by Sage Chakra, is also strong enough to not be dispel-able?

And Tsukiyomi and Kotoamatsumaki have the spiritual energy of the older son backing them up.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

I don't recall this. Do you remember what chapter or arc this happened in?

Climax of Kakashi vs Itachi, PTS.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

I like this explanation, it makes a lot of sense.

So in the context of your idea, the Toad Confrontation Chant would be complex enough to to completely bind and paralyse the victim, but due to being a complex jutsu that took Ma and Pa Toad years to learn, and being fuelled by Sage Chakra, is also strong enough to not be dispel-able?

And Tsukiyomi and Kotoamatsumaki have the spiritual energy of the older son backing them up.

Yeah that's right. Basically I'm imagining that all genjutsu exist on a sliding scale where the power of the illusion is the inverse of how easy it is to dispel. Jutsu rank and chakra requirements being equal, you can make genjutsu that are complex and binding but fragile, average in both degrees, weak but hard to dispel, or anywhere inbetween. Only by adding more chakra and becoming more skilled with genjutsu (i.e. increasing the genjutsu's rank) can you make a complex jutsu harder to dispel or a difficult to break genjutsu more complex and debilitating.

Toad Confrontation is a genjutsu that's completely maxed out on the complex end of the "complex/fragile <---> simple/unbreakable" scale. It completely paralyzes the victim, completely hijacks their perception of reality and sends them to a fictional universe, and it prevents them from using chakra or jutsu (Preta Path was one of the victims and couldn't absorb it.) I bet that if a normal human tried to replicate the effects of that genjutsu, even if they were a genjutsu master and performed it at an S-rank level, that it would still be too fragile to hold anyone Jonin level or higher for more than a few seconds. It takes two 800 year old masters working together in perfect synchronization and boosting the genjutsu with sage chakra to make that genjutsu "unbreakable" for even someone like Nagato.

Although I suspect that the genjutsu might not actually be "unbreakable", but rather just hard enough to break that even an S-rank opponent cannot escape without help. But the fact that's it's sound based makes that weakness difficult to exploit because anyone that got close enough to use Kai would be caught in the genjutsu, and anyone freed would just be immediately recaptured as soon as they heard the song again. If someone plugged their ears well enough to block out all sound, snuck up and put plugs in the victim's ears and then used Kai, then I suspect the victim could probably be freed.