Naruto The Narutoversity

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Shirotsume said:
For all we know it has a Chakra Circulatory System of it's own or something. The Juubi exists on it, after all.
It does, look up Dragon Veins.
...That's movie-only material, right?
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
RE: The Naruversity

I think it was from the movie Kishimoto made, iirc.
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

Nope, the movie (the one where they traveled in time) got the idea from a reference in the third databook. We discussed it in the Rereading the Manga thread recently:

Earth Release: Planet Splitter - By concentrating chakra in the palm of his hands, the caster rips open the ground by using the ryumaku, the veins in the earth in which chakra flows. Although it requires delicate control of chakra to manipulate the ryumaku, a skilled caster can use it as a defense by separating the enemy's camp from one's own, and as an attack by destroying an enemy camp.

And then the online version mentions that these dragon veins are concept from Feng Shui, similar to ley lines. This is the only time the ryumaku are mentioned.

Imagine if that's where the Juubi came from or vice versa. And maybe this is a different kind of chakra i.e. physical energy from plants (and the corpses of animals/humans?) and natural energy from the earth, water and air.
This post and onwards.
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
RE: The Naruversity

So wait, was Earth Release: Planet Splitter in the databook or in the movie?
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

It's a jutsu that showed up in the manga and described the databook but it never showed up in the movie iirc.

In the movie, the Dragon Veins were "an ancient source of chakra that flows deep under Rōran, and can grant infinite power to those who harness it. Only the blood heirs of the kingdom can open or close the flow, but after it's open, anyone can use it" says the wiki. They were what sent Naruto and company to and from the past thanks to Minato's Hiraishin kunai.
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
RE: The Naruversity

I would say that makes the dragon veins canon then, if it's in the databook.
 

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Are you talking about the jutsu Yamato uses to create a path through Itachi's Amaterasu flames?
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

That's the one. Called Earth Release: Earth Flow Divide on the wiki.
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

nixofcyzerra said:
Wouldn't they become a plant or a tree instead? I suppose with Hashirama and Zetsu, we couldn't have that for story purposes, but when you think of nature, plants come to mind before rocks. Of course, we don't know much about Naruto's planet. For all we know it has a Chakra Circulatory System of it's own or something. The Juubi exists on it, after all.
I'm not sure whether plants are actually a part of this natural energy business. When referring to natural energy, Fukasaku talks about the atmosphere and the earth and Kurama talks about the earth and water. No-one mentions plants. If that's the case then it probably was done for the sake of story-telling. Though we might learn something on the subject later depending on how Hashirama's senjutsu works.

If that were the case, wouldn't Sasuke's CSoH give him hax genjutsu skills instead of a physical boost and hand-wings? Although those hand-wings are reminiscent of Juugo's body-shaping ability...

Kimmimaro did grow a tail when he went to level 2, but did he even do anything with it? Sasuke's hand-wings could be used for offense, defence and flight.
I was thinking that the designs of the curse seal are symbolic rather than each one granting specific superpowers. The only notable difference between the two is that one grants wings and the other grants a tail which fits the theme. The cursed seal, and senjutsu, are basically just super forms that boosts all their existing abilities, except for whatever physical changes the transformation grants.

I'm fairly sure Kimimaro smashed through Gaara's sand and hit him with his tail at one point. And to be fair, Sasuke had multiple fights with his CS whereas Kimimaro only had one. Not to mention that his Shikotsmyaku is versatile enough that a tail is superfluous.

Interesting. One point I'd like to bring up; although Juugo apparently has massive chakra reserves, do you think it's possible that he's simply not capable of molding a large enough quantity of chakra, like Jiraiya and Naruto can? So he takes in so much natural energy, it over-powers the physical and spiritual energy that he can bring out? If so, it's possible that if he were to simply train to increase his chakra molding threshold, that his rages would become less frequent.
Hm, I've never thought of it that way. The way I understand it is that you don't actually need to produce a lot of chakra to use senjutsu, you just need a body that is capable of doing so. That's why Naruto can enter Sage Mode even when he's low on chakra; he has the type of body that's strong enough to absorb natural energy which is shown through his high stamina. That's also why Orochimaru's last body (one of his last bodies) wasn't compatible for senjutsu; he didn't have the type of body that was able to do it.

So with that in mind I'd say that increasing his chakra moulding ability wouldn't make a difference. But I don't think we've seen an example of someone who can only turn a fraction of their stamina so it does make me wonder. :hmm:
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

nixofcyzerra said:
Anyway, if my theory is correct, then it isn't that Juugo's bloodline prevents him from turning into a statue, but that it instead absorbs natural energy from the atmosphere instead of the terrain, with the berserker rage being a side-effect of an imperfect balance instead of the statue-ification.
I thought that Juugo's bloodline prevented him from being turned into a statue not by making him somehow physically immune to petrification, but by preventing him from taking enough nature energy into his body for it to become unbalanced in the first place. In other words, it's a failsafe. His bloodline detects when he's getting dangerously close to petrifying and kicks on the rage mode to force him to expend enough chakra trashing his environment and anyone near him to bring his nature energy back down to a safe level.

But then again that doesn't really explain how the heck Kimmimaro and Sasuke can control Juugo's rages just by throwing some killing intent at him. Surely that nature energy has to go somewhere?
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

To me, Juugo going out of control parallels Naruto turning into a toad. Where Naruto would have actually become a toad, Juugo would instead enter his Level 2 state. I didn't get the impression that he or his clan could potentially turn to stone but instead suffer from an increasingly homicidal rage as a consequence

But then again that doesn't really explain how the heck Kimmimaro and Sasuke can control Juugo's rages just by throwing some killing intent at him. Surely that nature energy has to go somewhere?
It could be the equivalent of how early Naruto would create lots of chakra but only use a small amount, causing most of it to be wasting. Juugo starts raging and building up chakra -> Sasuke/Kimimaro uses killing intent -> Juugo reverts to normal and chakra is wasted.

Though I've never understood what actually happens to the wasted chakra. I suppose it just gets released into the atmosphere and isn't noticeable.
 

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

So yeah, as I've recently mentioned in a couple of other threads, in my mind, body strong enough to handle natural energy = body with really good chakra circulatory system.

Altered Nova said:
But then again that doesn't really explain how the heck Kimmimaro and Sasuke can control Juugo's rages just by throwing some killing intent at him. Surely that nature energy has to go somewhere?
Well, why does natural energy make Juugo go homicidal anyway? Amplification of fight-or-flight insticts? According to the 3rd databook, he's naturally quite cowardly, so... *shrugs*?

And any released natural energy is probably what attracts all those animals to him.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Well, why does natural energy make Juugo go homicidal anyway? Amplification of fight-or-flight instincts? According to the 3rd databook, he's naturally quite cowardly, so... *shrugs*?
Er, I explained my theory on that in the same post you quoted...

Basically, nature energy doesn't make Juugo go homicidal. His bloodline does that. The reason it does that is that it's a failsafe to prevent him from becoming petrified like other senjutsu users risk. His body detects when he's absorbed so much nature energy that he's getting dangerously close to becoming unbalanced enough to turn to stone, and it kicks on "murder mode" to force him to expend some of that built up energy and reduce his nature energy levels back to a safe level. So if Juugo ever was trained in senjutsu and learned how to consciously control it he would stop going berserk because his nature energy levels wouldn't become unbalanced anymore.

That's my theory anyway. I find your theory that he goes berserk instead of petrifying because he's absorbing a different kind of nature energy interesting, but I'm not sure I buy it. It seems like the kind of thing Fukasaku would have mentioned to Naruto during his Sage training. I'm more inclined to believe that Juugo's unique abilities are also a result of his bloodline, and that the reason he can't do the special sage stuff that Naruto does is because he isn't trained as a ninja or a sage.
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

I think he does have some ninja training. He jumps through trees, those chakra booster imply he knows how to actively generate chakra, and I think that he was water walking during the Killer Bee fight.
 

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Altered Nova said:
Basically, nature energy doesn't make Juugo go homicidal. His bloodline does that. The reason it does that is that it's a failsafe to prevent him from becoming petrified like other senjutsu users risk. His body detects when he's absorbed so much nature energy that he's getting dangerously close to becoming unbalanced enough to turn to stone, and it kicks on "murder mode" to force him to expend some of that built up energy and reduce his nature energy levels back to a safe level. So if Juugo ever was trained in senjutsu and learned how to consciously control it he would stop going berserk because his nature energy levels wouldn't become unbalanced anymore.
So why does he become homicidal instead of hyper-active? And I thought he didn't always goes on sprees. Didn't he sometimes just kill one person? Also, Kabuto experimented with Juugo's bloodline, but only received the passive natural energy absorption, and not the rage or the Sage Transformation. Why didn't he?

knight504 said:
I think he does have some ninja training. He jumps through trees, those chakra booster imply he knows how to actively generate chakra, and I think that he was water walking during the Killer Bee fight.
True. I imagine Kimimaro taught him most of his practical skills. How old was he when his clan was wiped out? Was he even born at the time?
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

It's unconfirmed whether the clan's gone extinct, iirc. Juugo may have been separated from them in his past, he might not have ever known about them or he might be a sole survivor like Kimimaro.
 
Sharingan v1 (Knyght)

Knyght

The Collector
I decided to clarify the abilities of the regular Sharingan, excluding Izanami and Izanagi, and expand on the evolving aspect of it. Took some liberties with the final stage of the jutsu copying part simply because I didn't know how to break it down into three.

Sharingan v1 (Version 2)

The Sharingan has three main abilities: insight, mimicry and hypnosis. The strength of these abilities is dependent on the number of tomoe that each eye possesses, ranging from one to three.

For the eye of insight, the first tomoe allows it to see chakra flow and colour which enables the user to recognize all forms of chakra which are used in any jutsu. They also possess clarity of perception which grants them greater attention-to-detail and an increased abilities to process what they see. The second tomoe increases this perception so they can detect most physical movements, even subtle ones, and track fast-moving objects. The third tomoe is able to detect every single physical movement to the point they can predict their actions, allowing them to see image of an attacker's next move from the slightest muscle tension and counter-attack or dodge without wasted movement.

For the eye of mimicry, the first tomoe uses the chakra vision to see the mechanics of all ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu by witnessing the chakra flow. The second tomoe is able to memorize any jutsu through the movement of chakra and the body and record it in the user's memory. They are able to then perform these jutsu themselves provided their have the skill and physical requirements, though these memories aren't permanent and need to be practiced to be retained. The third tomoe takes this further by combining it with their insight so the user can copy a jutsu whilst an opponent is using it and even finish it first by predicting their movements.

For the eye of hypnosis, the first tomoe allows the user to suggest actions and thoughts directly into a target's mind through eye contact, utilising the hypnotic nature of the eyes. The second tomoe enables the user to cast full genjutsu upon a target and taking control of their senses. The third tomoe takes this even further by enabling the user to dominate a target's mind and control their actions through verbal or mental commands. This is more powerful when used on a summons the user has a contracted which has the side-effect of superimposing the image of the Sharingan upon their eyes.
 
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RE: The Naruversity

You know, I don't think Sharingan actually has a real copy ability.
It only "disassemble" the movement and the chakra flow it sees, and maybe act as photographic memory activator.
It's then up to the user to put the parts back together into a jutsu.(*)
More tomoes help because they mean getting a greater amount of details, which makes easier\faster to understand them.

we also have to remember the tomoe are actually SIX, three for each eye. Sasuke didn't get the "before-image" until he got his sixth tomoe.

I wonder if a 2-Sharingan Kakashi would had an easier time copying the Rasengan. he did say it was a jutsu at the limit of his Sharingan copy ability, but he did, in fact, ONE Sharingan.


(*)Now I want a fic where Kakashi\Sasuke\an Uchiha doesn't copy shit but actually re-engineers the knowledge of the jutsu he sees into new jutsu. Example: Sasuke develops a new movement enhancing jutsu based on Haku's Demonic Mirrors. Not being able to make ice, he focused on how the chakra of the mirrors speed up Haku, and managed to imitate it to some degree.
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

No, Sasuke went from two in each eye to three in each eye. A better example would be when he's first shown with his Sharingan and has two in one and one in the other. Something which always confused me, especially when the next time he uses it he has two tomoe in each and when he actually awakened it he had one in each. I assume that its appearance in Wave was something that Kishimoto retconned, or it was because his Sharingan hadn't activated properly. The latter might fit considering that Sasuke's eye changed gradually the first time and given that it wasn't actually the first time.

So even though the Sharingan technically has six tomoe, I group them as one rather than saying "with the first pair of tomoe..." and the like.

I don't recall Kakashi ever mentioning that he copied the Rasengan. He created the Chidori after failing to combine nature transformation with the Rasengan, both of which was before he got Obito's eye.

And the first databook does straight out say the Sharingan copies so I ran with it: "On top of an all-encompassing insight and powerful hypnosis, these eyes are hosts to a jutsu-copying ability that memorizes the techniques their gaze falls upon in an instant, and replicates them."

FYI, I've updated the opening post with an index that links to most of the theories posted and a couple of theory-related threads.
 
RE: The Naruversity

I don't recall Kakashi ever mentioning that he copied the Rasengan.
Kakashi said he A-ranked space recomposition jutsus he could "somehow copy"




also, fucking Kakashi:


so Chakra level and Stamina are treated as different things.
I think "Stamina" also cover how fast somebody manages to stop being tired... basically, Chakra Regen
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

I think Kakashi was referring to the regular dictionary definition of copying, not magic Sharingan copying. That is, Minato showed him the Rasengan and he figured it out for himself the hard way with lots and lots of practice.

We were talking about the differences between stamina and chakra level the other day. The conclusion we came to is that "stamina" is the total reserves of spiritual and physical energy. In other words, the maximum amount of chakra that can be produced before dying. "Chakra level" on the other hand, is the maximum amount of chakra that can be held inside your chakra circulatory system at once, which determines the highest level jutsu you are capable of using.

So if you have 101 stamina and 100 chakra level, then you can only use a jutsu that costs 100 chakra without dying, and you'll need to rest after doing so because you just used up almost all your stamina.

But if you have 1,001 stamina and 100 chakra level, you can still only use a jutsu that costs 100 chakra, but now you can cast that jutsu ten times before needing to rest. Your stamina is so much greater than your chakra level that you can fill, empty and refill your chakra coils many times before running out of steam.

And if you have 100,001 stamina and 1,000 chakra level, well then you are probably Naruto.
 
Ridiculously long tl;dr theory on chakra (Nixofcyzerra)

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Nixofcyzerra's ridiculously long tl;dr theory on chakra

Right, as we all know, Chakra is the moulding of the physical energy present in every cell of the body and the spiritual energy gained from exercise and experience. Once moulded, it can be channelled through the chakra circulatory system (CCS,) which is to chakra as the regular circulatory system is to blood, to any of the 361 tenketsu in the body.

The regular circulatory system transports blood around the body. All 4 components of blood, Plasma, Red and White Blood Cells, and Platelets are all produced in Bone Marrow. Interestingly, in children, the marrow of most of the bones produces blood, but in adults, only the marrow of certain bones-the spine, ribs, pelvis, and some others, continues to make blood. We'll come back to that later.

For now, the first comparison I'd like to make between the regular and chakra circulatory systems is that, obviously, the regular circulatory system normally has blood flowing through it at all times. If we take this comparison to the chakra circulatory system, then certain aspects of Naruto become more clear. Under normal conditions, there is at least some chakra flowing through a Naruto character's body at all times, civilian or shinobi. Not just physical or spiritual energy, but chakra. It's normal for their bodies. This explains how sensor-types are capable of detecting ninja even when they aren't moulding chakra for jutsu.

However, one significant difference between the regular circulatory system and the CCS is the Tenkutsu, 361 nodes that that control the flow of chakra like circuit breakers. Now, a circuit breaker is an electrical switch designed to protect an electrical circuit from damage caused by overload or short circuit. Its basic function is to detect a fault condition and automatically interrupt flow of the current. Therefore, it's likely that the intended purpose of the tenketsu is to prevent more chakra than is safe passing through parts of the system. If a larger amount of chakra, more than that part of the system can normally take, is travelling down the arm, for whatever reason, then the excess chakra will be vented out the tenketsu. It also means that the Gentle Fist can shut down chakra flow, or cause what's essentially either an overload or a short circuit in their opponent's CCS.

So if chakra ever needs to be vented out the tenketsu, what's expelled needs to be replenished, just as blood does if someone loses blood through an injury. The human body has a feedback system that tells it when it needs to make new red blood cells. If bodily oxygen levels are low (as they would be if there are too few red blood cells circulating), the kidneys produce a hormone called erythropoietin, which stimulates the stem cells in the bone marrow to produce more red blood cells.

I don't know what the chakra equivalent of bone marrow stem cells would be, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn it's the heart, as the heart is what pumps blood around the regular circulatory system, and it's where Kabuto apparently did something to Naruto that was going to kill him, that couldn't be fixed by his healing factor. The heart is also the location of the Death Gate, which when opened uses up all of the body's energy, so to me it makes sense that the heart is where spiritual and physical energy are mixed, where chakra enters the body. Plus, Sasori and Kakuzu.

Just as humans have no conscious control over our bone marrow (unless you're a Kaguya,) it makes sense that prior to the rise of ninjutsu, the conversion of physical and spiritual energy to chakra was an unconscious bodily reaction. When the chakra in the CCS dropped below a certain point, the body automatically produces some more. This explains how chakra exhaustion can render someone unconscious or dead. when a shinobi's CCS need refilling but their stamina is depleted, their body keeps trying to produce chakra, even to the point where they use up the physical energy that's keeping them alive. It also gives a much more logical explanation for chakra absorbing techniques than the jutsu actually draining physical and spiritual energy. The techniques absorb the chakra present in the CCS, which the victim's body automatically works to refill.


Up until this point, with the exception of my mention of sensors-types, the Gentle Fist, probably chakra exhaustion, and chakra-absorption jutsu, everything I've said applies both to pre-Rikudo Sennin Naruto-verse individuals, and current Naruto-verse civilians. Everyone has the 8 gates after all.

The Sage of the Six Paths apparently discovered the "truth of chakra," and likely the existance of the CCS. After all, with the Rinnegan he could see chakra, including his own, probably much like Sasuke could see foreign chakra color in his own body while fighting Deidara. So the Sot6P discovers this energy within his body, and learns to manipulate it. Perhaps chakra circulatory systems are normally under-utilised by everybody but Shinobi, Samurai and Monks, perhaps his CCS was naturally better/well-defined/robust than others (my preferred theory,) or perhaps he worked to improve the quality of his system. Either way, he discovered a method of essentially Over-clocking his body and taking his life energies and weaponising it, and then taught it to others. Ninjutsu is basically the spiritual equivalent of opening a vein and firing off your blood as a weapon. Hardcore.

If we go all the way back to Ebisu's explanation here, we'll see that there are 3 factors to using a jutsu: a ninja's stamina, their chakra level, and their control. Chakra levels are the parts of the diagram where they "build up chakra." That must consist of consciously moulding chakra and introducing it into the CCS. The better defined/sturdier your CCS, the more chakra you can build up.

So I imagine an aspect of shinobi training just as important as increasing your stamina and honing your chakra control is working to improve your CCS, to allow you to build up more chakra to fuel more powerful ninjutsu. There's been a bit of fanon around Naruto fanfiction for years, that newborns/infants were chosen as Jinchuuriki because their chakra systems were "elastic" and able to adjust. While this was mostly disproved (Killer B was five,) it remains possible that either children find it easier to develop their CCS, or that it normally improves so slowly that it's best to start young. I mentioned earlier that as children age, many of their bone's bone marrow stops producing blood. If the CCS mirrors this, then perhaps a naruto-verse occupant's CCS "sets" somewhat when they reach a certain age.

It's possible that a superior CCS also plays a part in making you stronger and faster. Odds are Gai's CCS is in excellent condition. You may be able to actively mould chakra to increase your strength and speed even further, as some taijutsu moves that actively use chakra (that aren't nintaijutsu) apparently do exist.

Also, a ninja's CCS likely doesn't constantly contain the maximum possible amount of moulded chakra, and I wouldn't be surpised if their "Chakra Pressure" has a stable medium. Hell, the CCS might even be subject to homeostasis.
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

So the shadow clone jutsu expends chakra to create the clone, divides the user's chakra between themselves and their clone and then uses up chakra to maintain the clone's existence.

Put like that, I can see why it's seldom used.

I think Kakashi was referring to the regular dictionary definition of copying, not magic Sharingan copying. That is, Minato showed him the Rasengan and he figured it out for himself the hard way with lots and lots of practice.
This.
 

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Altered Nova said:
We were talking about the differences between stamina and chakra level the other day. The conclusion we came to is that "stamina" is the total reserves of spiritual and physical energy. In other words, the maximum amount of chakra that can be produced before dying. "Chakra level" on the other hand, is the maximum amount of chakra that can be held inside your chakra circulatory system at once, which determines the highest level jutsu you are capable of using.

So if you have 101 stamina and 100 chakra level, then you can only use a jutsu that costs 100 chakra without dying, and you'll need to rest after doing so because you just used up almost all your stamina.

But if you have 1,001 stamina and 100 chakra level, you can still only use a jutsu that costs 100 chakra, but now you can cast that jutsu ten times before needing to rest. Your stamina is so much greater than your chakra level that you can fill, empty and refill your chakra coils many times before running out of steam.

And if you have 100,001 stamina and 1,000 chakra level, well then you are probably Naruto.
It's probably possible to have 101 stamina and 2-300 chakra level as well. After all, Akimichi clan members normally aren't capable of using their Chōdan Bakugeki technique without burning all their fat, although the chakra produced during the technique does leak out outside their body. Another example is Tsunade's (and now Sakura's) Yin Seal, which involves storing up a large amount of chakra and then releasing it all into the body at once. This implies that they have chakra circulatory systems that are up to the task of handling levels of chakra they don't normally have the stamina to produce.

Incidentally, this also means that it's theoretically possible for a ninja who has only average or above average stamina but an excellent chakra network to still be capable of using senjutsu by abusing soldier pills.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

How would you say that soldier pill work anyway? The Narutopedia page says that they are "made up of powerful stimulants and nutrients" and "let you keep fighting for three days and three nights without rest". So I'm thinking that they kick your metabolism into overdrive and provide you with a few tens of thousands of calories, essentially giving you three days worth of meals in one pill. They also contain a heavy dose of a central nervous system stimulant, keeping you awake and alert for those three days.

Pretty darn useful. And I bet you'll experience one hell of a crash after it wears off. Probably be exhausted and hungry for days afterwards. Definitely wouldn't want to be someone who took more than one of them once the high ends.

I bet they are an exclusively produced by the Akimichi clan. I can see them making variants without the metabolism boosting and mental stimulant drugs for fattening back up after battle.
 
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