Naruto The Narutoversity

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

Noted. ^_^

And I was conflicted on a point that datakim brought up once upon a time where the bunshin jutsu was an example of Yin Release. One of one hand, I can see how it'd fit the category given its nature but on the other, Yin and Yang has been treated as a special use of chakra rather than something as common place as clone.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

Considering Kage Bunshin creates both a physical body and clones the soul of the user, it's likely an even 50/50 physical/spiritual chakra split. Other clones might have different ratios though.

My personal headcanon is that most jutsu favor either physical energy or spiritual energy to some degree, depending on how they function. Like, perhap bunshin, being a non-physical hologram, is 60/40 favoring spiritual (would could explain why Naruto, who has only the Kyuubi's Yang chakra sealed within him, had so much trouble with that jutsu), while henge is 60/40 favoring physical, since it's a real physical transformation (also explaining why Naruto is so awesome with henge).

In this theory to be considered Yang or Yin release the jutsu must favor one kind of energy by at least 75%. Because chakra becomes unstable when the energies are so unbalanced, controlling such chakra requires special advanced training or unusual skill, hence why Yin and Yang Release jutsu either require very fine chakra control (genjutsu, medical jutsu), or the special training is a closely guarded clan secret (shadow jutsu, mind/body switch jutsu, body expansion jutsu).

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

I like it. That would also fit with something else that bugged me; how Sakura was exceptionally talented at medical ninjutsu but is also considered a genjutsu type, two fields that I consider opposite ends of the spectrum. If it's a question of chakra control then that would work well.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

RE: The Naruversity

Actually, I don't remember Sakura was ever described as TALENTED in medical jutsu. I think she simply combined her really good chakra control with book knowledge and massive amounts of training and effort

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

I beg to differ. It might have also come up in PTS when Sakura's works on Kankuro and/or in the fight with Sasori at some point.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

She has excellent chakra control, a keen analytical mind, incredibly good memory and she isn't squeamish. Those traits might not be the most useful to have in a fight but they make for a fan-fucking-tastic doctor.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

RE: The Naruversity

I beg to differ.

I stand corrected

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

I'm wondering if "chakra naturally exists in a state where it is composed of a perfect balance of physical energy and spiritual energy" would work better as the balance of energies being different for every person. Everyone leans towards yin or yang (some more heavily than others) with a few naturally achieving balance. So Naruto's chakra would always exist in a state that leans towards yang, rather than it only happening when he's moulding chakra.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

Whether your chakra leans towards yin or yang is probably determined partly by genetics and partly by your personality. Assuming real life Chinese philosophy applies to the Naruto-verse, "positive" people who are cheerful, aggressive, active, hot-tempered, dominating, masculine etc would lean towards yang, and "negative" people who are gloomy, conflict-avoiding, passive, calm, submissive, feminine, etc (wow Chinese philosophy is kind of sexist) would lean towards yin. And yin and yang preferences are probably passed down in families like elemental affinities are if the Nara and Akimichi clans are any indication.

Naruto's chakra would probably always lean towards yang regardless of his own natural yin or yang affinity though, because the Kyuubi's chakra is heavily unbalanced towards yang thanks to Minato and it's always leaking into his body and mixing with his own chakra because of his seal.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

An interesting interpretation of the Eight Gates from a DLPer:

The Eight Celestial Gates allow the cells of a body to use more chakra than they are allowed.
The Gates were mentioned to remove limiters on the human body, allowing him to use more chakra than normal. A few authors took this to mean that shinobi could use more chakra in jutsu, leading to in at least one instance an eighty-meter Rasengan (before the showing of Sage Mode too, I might add). This is probably not the case.

The mental limited likely limit the amount of chakra each cell can consume in its use. Moving your body or flooding you limbs with chakra will enhance your strength up until the point that your brain says no more, I can't take it. Unlocking the Gates allows you to break past this limiter, and infuse your cells with progressively more and more chakra. But since this chakra is over the damage threshold, it begins to damage the tissue. Cells burst due to over-flooding, muscles become stronger than tendons and rip free, the heart and lungs pump into over-drive and begin to fail, nerves begin to fry, calories are being burned up like the Griswolds' electricity meter in Christmas Vacation. As you get farther and farther down the Gates, more damage is cause until by the final gate it is catastrophic. THAT is what happens when the Gates are opened.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

I thought that was the normal interpretation of how the Gates work? I mean, that's how Gai and Lee use the gates, they push their bodies beyond their normal limits by opening the gates until their muscles and bones start tearing themselves apart. Lee was hospitalized and nearly forced to retire because of it. And neither of them have ever used a ninjutsu or genjutsu while under the effects of the gates, let alone used the gates to supercharge one.

 

[Knyght]

Personally, I thought that the way the Eight Gates were explained meant that the main effects were related to the body but that it was possible to use the increased chakra flow to empower their other jutsu. Lee and Gai only use it for taijutsu but those guys use practically nothing else. So it wouldn't seem much of stretch for someone more ninjutsu-oriented who can open the Gates to use them that way instead. I doubt I'm the only one who had that misconception.

Here it's made more explicit. It's not just "the user has more chakra inside him", it's "their body can be enhanced with more chakra".

Chakra Intent

The chakra generated by a shinobi can be projected through their tenketsu into the surrounding environment. The force produced by this is dependent on the strength and quantity of chakra, and it can range from causing minor disturbances to tearing the area apart with chakra alone. It is typically used a method of intimidation.

The shinobi can deliberately project their will through their chakra to direct it at a specific target to cause an instinctive psychological reaction. The most common form of this is killing intent where shinobi project their malice at a target to generate fear, potentially causing discomfort, paralysis, suicidal impulses and violent hallucinations. However it's possible to take the opposite approach by enveloping the target with the user's desire to protect them, creating a sense of security and safety. Particularly skilful individuals can take this further by using this method to instigate different kinds of emotions and reactions in a target.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

So I popped over to the DLP forums since you mentioned them, and I see you've been reposting some of my theories over there. Naughty knight504!

(To be clear, that's a joke and I don't care if you repost my ideas. I know I'm probably never going to write a fanfic using them, might as well let someone else put 'em to good use.)

After rereading them I think that I need to go back and expand on the fuinjutsu entry, I really did kind of leave the actual function of seals (sealing, binding, containing) as a side-note and barely talked about it. (That was also back when I thought that physical/spiritual energy and yin/yang were separate properties of chakra and not just different words for the same thing.) I also like your idea that all non-kekkei genkai time-space ninjutsu require fuinjutsu to provide coordinates in order to function correctly. Actually I might go even further and postulate that all fuinjutsu incorporates time-space ninjutsu and that manipulating time-space is integral to how fuinjutsu functions. Most fuinjutsu seems to create a pocket dimension in order to store something inside of them, whether it be chakra, fire, explosions, weapons, bijuu, etc. For many fuinjutsu, releasing the contained item seems to be the only function of the seal. Even the ones that replicate complicated jutsu to project barriers or clones or whatever must store whatever chakra is powering those barriers/clones within them somewhere if they aren't actively being fed chakra by a ninja during their activation.

Also I found this comment by DLP poster Mortalone rather interesting:

7. Ninjas naturally have stronger chakras than civilians. This is why even young academy students with minimal chakra control can perform feats like jumping 10 ft in the air -- something that real life Olympic athletes cannot do.

What if the ability to control chakra is itself hereditary? That the difference between a civilian and a ninja is more than just a lack of training - that someone descended from a long line of civilians might be physically incapable of ever consciously controlling their chakra, while someone descended from a long line of ninja can be physically transforming into other people with minimal training by the time they are six years old?

We already know there are plenty of people with genetically inherited abilities that let them control chakra in ways that no-one without their genes ever could. Chakra capacity and chakra control also seem to be at least partially inherited, or else we probably wouldn't have ninja like Kakashi who have naturally small chakra capacities despite overwhelming talent and decades of training and experience. Extending this inheritance to the ability to use chakra at all (meaning that chakra usage is itself a kekkei genkai, albeit one that's spread throughout most if not all of the gene pool) doesn't seem that absurd to me.

Heck it could explain how the Sage of Six Paths supposedly invented ninjutsu, despite chakra existing in everything and everyone. By freak genetic mutation he developed the ability to control chakra, something no one before him could ever do. Therefore all ninja are either descended from him or from others who randomly benefited from this same mutation or who reverse engineered the Sage's 'chakra control' gene and transplanted into their own DNA.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

Chakra Intent: Version 2

The chakra generated by a shinobi can be projected through their tenketsu into the surrounding environment. The force produced by this is dependent on the strength and quantity of chakra, and it can range from causing minor disturbances to tearing the area apart with chakra alone. It is typically used a method of intimidation.

The shinobi can deliberately project their will through their chakra to direct it at a specific target to cause an instinctive psychological reaction. The most common form of this is killing intent where shinobi project their malice at a target to generate fear, potentially causing discomfort, paralysis, suicidal impulses and violent hallucinations. However it’s possible to take the opposite approach by enveloping the target with the user’s desire to protect them, creating a sense of security and safety. Particularly skilful individuals can take this further by using this method to instigate different kinds of emotions and reactions in a target.

This cannot be true, otherwise Jiraiya would have weaponised it for sexual purposes.

 

[Shirotsume]

RE: The Naruversity

Who says he hasn't? It may be like his stealth skills- he doesn't use them because it would be unfair.

 

[Knyght]

Little did Sasuke-chan know that Jiraiya was the true creator of Lust Intent.

So I popped over to the DLP forums since you mentioned them, and I see you've been reposting some of my theories over there. Naughty knight504!

I regret nothing. :snigger:

After rereading them I think that I need to go back and expand on the fuinjutsu entry, I really did kind of leave the actual function of seals (sealing, binding, containing) as a side-note and barely talked about it. (That was also back when I thought that physical/spiritual energy and yin/yang were separate properties of chakra and not just different words for the same thing.) I also like your idea that all non-kekkei genkai time-space ninjutsu require fuinjutsu to provide coordinates in order to function correctly. Actually I might go even further and postulate that all fuinjutsu incorporates time-space ninjutsu and that manipulating time-space is integral to how fuinjutsu functions. Most fuinjutsu seems to create a pocket dimension in order to store something inside of them, whether it be chakra, fire, explosions, weapons, bijuu, etc. For many fuinjutsu, releasing the contained item seems to be the only function of the seal. Even the ones that replicate complicated jutsu to project barriers or clones or whatever must store whatever chakra is powering those barriers/clones within them somewhere if they aren't actively being fed chakra by a ninja during their activation.

Something that bugs me about fuuinjutsu is the jutsu which don’t seem to involve sealing formula at all. For instance, Itachi copying his Amaterasu into Sasuke’s Sharingan, Hashirama creating those tori to seal the Juubi, Chiyo creating that vacuum with her puppets*, Sai’s sealing people with ink tigers, Nagato’s chakra absorbing Path and the Akatsuki’s nine dragon seal. And then there’s the Dead Demon Consuming Seal which is treated like a ninjutsu but creates a seal as a result.

*Though they do each show off a kanji before it activates.

And if all space-time jutsu incorporates fuuinjutsu, I have to wonder how Tobirama's Hiraishingiri works. Perhaps it involves a seal on his body and/or sword.

What if the ability to control chakra is itself hereditary? That the difference between a civilian and a ninja is more than just a lack of training - that someone descended from a long line of civilians might be physically incapable of ever consciously controlling their chakra, while someone descended from a long line of ninja can be physically transforming into other people with minimal training by the time they are six years old?

We already know there are plenty of people with genetically inherited abilities that let them control chakra in ways that no-one without their genes ever could. Chakra capacity and chakra control also seem to be at least partially inherited, or else we probably wouldn't have ninja like Kakashi who have naturally small chakra capacities despite overwhelming talent and decades of training and experience. Extending this inheritance to the ability to use chakra at all (meaning that chakra usage is itself a kekkei genkai, albeit one that's spread throughout most if not all of the gene pool) doesn't seem that absurd to me.

Heck it could explain how the Sage of Six Paths supposedly invented ninjutsu, despite chakra existing in everything and everyone. By freak genetic mutation he developed the ability to control chakra, something no one before him could ever do. Therefore all ninja are either descended from him or from others who randomly benefited from this same mutation or who reverse engineered the Sage's 'chakra control' gene and transplanted into their own DNA.

I think if there are people who can’t control chakra then they’d be in a minority. The way the story goes makes it sound like the Sage taught everyone he could during his lifetime, and if it were limited to special individuals then I don’t think it would have become as widespread as it did. Being his descendant is also treated as something rare as well and I personally doubt that his sons were his first and only disciples. And messing with genes feels like something too complex for them to manage, especially since the recent discovery of ninjutsu would imply that they don’t know nearly as much about the body (and medical ninjutsu was essentially revolutionized during the ninja wars, iirc).

Besides I don’t think the Sage was the first person to discover chakra or even the first to control it, he just understand the “truth of chakra†and could control to an extent that surpass what anyone else had managed to do. Personally, I prescribe to the idea that the samurai were around before the Sage came about.


Shape Transformation

This is an advanced method of chakra control which forms the basis of almost all jutsu as controlling the shape and movement of chakra in different ways can produce a countless number of effects. This can range from bending light rays to turn the user invisible to creating poison mist. It is what gives shape to ninjutsu and control its power and range of effective, and sculpts a jutsu's particularities such as its mechanics and its training method.

Ordinarily, shape transformation is performed using hand-seals. Hand-seals are what allow chakra-users to mould and shape their chakra in the correct way to utilise jutsu. The number of hand-seals, which hand-seals and what sequence they are used in is what dictates the effect produced by a jutsu. Typically, the more complex the jutsu then the more hand-seals are required which can be a time-consuming process.

By learning shape transformation, the chakra-user becomes capable of using complex jutsu instantly. For example, the Rasengan is considered the pinnacle of shape transformation and would require a long string of hand-seals to be used. Someone who has mastered the shape transformation for it would be able to create a Rasengan instantly. The better they are at shape transformation, then the faster they can perform their jutsu by dropping hand-seals and can even use them without any hand-seals. They would possess a greater understanding of the jutsu they use and enable them to creatively improving their jutsu's capabilities.

 

[lethum]

RE: The Naruversity

snip

The chakra eating pain path did something related to spinning the chakra in his coils against their natural rotation, which results in the sucking effect. This is probably something I read here on TFF, but I'm pretty sure it came from a databook.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

Pretty much. Y'know, I wonder if that's how it works for all those other chakra absorbers e.g. Jiroubou, Yoroi and Kisame. It wouldn't be the first example of one of the Paths' main abilities being something used by other ninja since the Animal Path only uses the summoning jutsu.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

Why does an excess of natural energy either turn you to stone or make you go berserk?

You collect the energy from "the atmosphere and terrain," so is there a difference between natural energy from the earth and natural energy from the air? So too much "earth-natural energy" will statue-fy you, while too much "air-natural energy" will make you go berserk?

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

Turning to stone is what would normally happen when you absorb too much natural energy. Going berserk is something unique to Juugo and his (possibly extinct) clan. Kabuto states their special body allows them to absorb natural energy and that's the reason they go berserk. Their bodies are adapted so that they can't die from absorbing too much at the cost of going into a psychotic rage instead.

Edit: I really wish I could find the mangastream translation for that chapter.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

Turning to stone is what would normally happen when you absorb too much natural energy. Going berserk is something unique to Juugo and his (possibly extinct) clan. Kabuto states their special body allows them to absorb natural energy and that's the reason they go berserk. Their bodies are adapted so that they can't die from absorbing too much at the cost of going into a psychotic rage instead.

Edit: I really wish I could find the mangastream translation for that chapter.

Juugo and his clan go berserk because they absorb natural energy, and it's just a side-effect of their blood-line, or because they absorb too much natural energy?

If it's the former, then would absorbing too much natural energy from the air cause a sage trainee to turn into air and dissolve?

Also, as the cursed seals are based on Juugo and are hypothesised to be related to Senjutsu, does the fact that there's the cursed seal of heaven and the cursed seal of earth mean anything? Perhaps the CSoH absorbs natural energy from the atmosphere, while the CSoE absorbs it from the terrain.

 

[Altered Nova]

RE: The Naruversity

That's a pretty interesting theory there nixofcyzerra. It does seem like a little too convenient for that detail to be just a coincidence.

Is there anyplace that archives the mangastream translations? They seem to be the best translations but the site doesn't keep more than the latest few chapters.

 

[Knyght]

RE: The Naruversity

Not a concept I've ever thought of. :sisi:

Fukasaku only mentions that the would-be-sages turn into stone so I assumed it's because the earth itself carries more natural energy, or because humans possess physical bodies which makes turning into the earth a more natural transition.

I thought that the curse seal designs might relate to the "Heaven and Earth" motto from the Chuunin Exams where heaven is the mind and earth is the body. In which case they tie into spiritual and physical energy/yin and yang. Sasuke's bloodline is more spiritual so he has heaven whilst Kimimaro's bloodline is more physical so he has earth. Plus these guys are in the top percentile so I figured the reason they got the strongest cursed seal is because they would have the greatest aptitude for senjutsu if they ever learn it themselves.

Juugo and his clan go berserk because they absorb natural energy, and it's just a side-effect of their blood-line, or because they absorb too much natural energy?

The latter, I believe. They don't seem to possess much control over their ability so their bodies end up absorbing too much energy. I did a theory on Juugo's clan in the opening post, fyi, which covers how I think their abilities work and where they might have come from.

@Altered Nova: Translations are inconsistent. Mangafox and MangaHere often have Mangastream translations so I usually jump between them if I'm looking for one. If I'm desperate I just type in the chapter in google and check any site that comes up.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

RE: The Naruversity

Fukasaku only mentions that the would-be-sages turn into stone so I assumed it's because the earth itself carries more natural energy, or because humans possess physical bodies which makes turning into the earth a more natural transition.

Wouldn't they become a plant or a tree instead? I suppose with Hashirama and Zetsu, we couldn't have that for story purposes, but when you think of nature, plants come to mind before rocks. Of course, we don't know much about Naruto's planet. For all we know it has a Chakra Circulatory System of it's own or something. The Juubi exists on it, after all.

I thought that the curse seal designs might relate to the "Heaven and Earth" motto from the Chuunin Exams where heaven is the mind and earth is the body. In which case they tie into spiritual and physical energy/yin and yang. Sasuke's bloodline is more spiritual so he has heaven whilst Kimimaro's bloodline is more physical so he has earth. Plus these guys are in the top percentile so I figured the reason they got the strongest cursed seal is because they would have the greatest aptitude for senjutsu if they ever learn it themselves.

If that were the case, wouldn't Sasuke's CSoH give him hax genjutsu skills instead of a physical boost and hand-wings? Although those hand-wings are reminiscent of Juugo's body-shaping ability...

Kimmimaro did grow a tail when he went to level 2, but did he even do anything with it? Sasuke's hand-wings could be used for offense, defence and flight.

Juugo and his clan go berserk because they absorb natural energy, and it's just a side-effect of their blood-line, or because they absorb too much natural energy?

The latter, I believe. They don't seem to possess much control over their ability so their bodies end up absorbing too much energy. I did a theory on Juugo's clan in the opening post, fyi, which covers how I think their abilities work and where they might have come from.

*goes and re-reads post*

Interesting. One point I'd like to bring up; although Juugo apparently has massive chakra reserves, do you think it's possible that he's simply not capable of molding a large enough quantity of chakra, like Jiraiya and Naruto can? So he takes in so much natural energy, it over-powers the physical and spiritual energy that he can bring out? If so, it's possible that if he were to simply train to increase his chakra molding threshold, that his rages would become less frequent.

Anyway, if my theory is correct, then it isn't that Juugo's bloodline prevents him from turning into a statue, but that it instead absorbs natural energy from the atmosphere instead of the terrain, with the berserker rage being a side-effect of an imperfect balance instead of the statue-ification.

And if Jiraiya or Naruto had instead been trained in "Heaven-style Senjutsu," then instead of enhanced strength, speed, stamina, reflexes, perception and durability (especially durability. Most ninja aren't that much more sturdy than your average person, but Sage Mode Naruto might be bullet-proof.,) as well as the "taijutsu aura," the ability to sense chakra, and Sage Ninjutsu, then they'd have got Sage Transformation stacked onto their normal abilities, as well as Sage Techniques like the completed Rasenshuriken.

That's enhanced strength, speed and endurance (Jugo took a punch from A that penetrated both his arm and chest, but he practically ignored it,) pure chakra cannons, axe hands, a jet pack, piston fists, rocket-piston fists, shield arms, and the ability to take your own bio-mass and graft it onto someone else, as well as body absorption to replace it (that poor samurai.) And Jugo's apparently never had any shinobi training, so that could be the tip of the iceberg.

Imagine Jiraiya with all that in addition to his normal abilities. Of course, Naruto would have been f*cked against the Preta Path.

Man, now I really want to see a Naruto vs. Juugo fight. Naruto senses the natural energy Juugo's emitting, summons Fukasaku, and asks to borrow his staff. 1-hit K.O, as Juugo hasn't been shown to know any other techniques. Upon waking, Juugo immediately begs to have the staff, and spends the rest of his days hitting himself on the head with it whenever he has a violent impulse.

 

[Shirotsume]

RE: The Naruversity

For all we know it has a Chakra Circulatory System of it's own or something. The Juubi exists on it, after all.

It does, look up Dragon Veins.