Naruto The Narutoversity

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

Altered Nova said:
The only problem is that Hiruzen and every other ninja looking for Naruto in the first chapter seemed to be genuinely concerned that Naruto could actually use that scroll to release the Kyuubi and take revenge on the village. So either the scroll doesn't have any kind of security on it or they thought Naruto might actually crack through it.
Some excerpts from the official chapter:

Hiruzen: "The scroll he has taken is so dangerous that the very first Hokage sealed it. If misused in the wrongs, it could be deadly."

Iruka: "It's more dangerous than you can imagine - it holds the record of a completely forbidden ninja art."

Mizuki: "The scroll that you've stolen...it was the instrument of your bondage!"

Hiruzen: "Mzuki spoke, revealing all...driving Naruto over the edge...so that all of that awesome, terrible power has begun to burst forth from its mystic bonds...There is always the possibility that the spirit might escape...and to top that, if the secret scroll is in his hands..."

They kinda make it sound like the jutsu are literally sealed inside and just bursting to get out...



:ph43r:
 

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

ankokudaishogun said:
Fuck, I totally forgot about that.
Still, Tobirama is explaining what did happen with the mass Hiraishin, not the normal working of Kage Bunshin. Because Naruto's ignorance, Tobirama cannot even be sure he left anything important from his explanation.
I think that explains how one can control\dispel\give orders to Kage Bunshin... but getting more chakra isn't automatic, at very least.

That said, I've corrected my post.
But just because a Shadow Clone has the same level of chakra flowing through his/her pathways as the original does doesn't mean they have equal amounts of stamina (Physical/Spiritual Energy.)

If that were true, then how did Kakashi make so many clones at the climax of the Wave Arc when he noted himself that he was running on fumes? He would have split his remaining stamina 50+ ways.

It seems to me that if would make more sense if the Shadow Clone copied the physical body and filled the pathways to the same volume the original has (and Kakashi's was lower than usual due to being tired,) and then draw extra chakra from the original when they move at Ninja speed/use Ninjutsu, rather than from the cells of their own "chakra pseudo-flesh" bodies.

That neatly explains why Kakashi considered making all those clones a bluff. He could spend a fairly small amount of chakra to produce the clones and fill their pathways, and he wouldn't risk chakra exhaustion so long as the clones stayed completely still and didn't draw any further chakra from him. They just stood there and looked menacing, because if they had used up any chakra doing anything, they would have automatically drawn on extra stamina/chakra from the original Kakashi, and he would have collapsed fairly quickly.

knight504 said:
*creepy facebook picture*
I'm not sure I'd go that far, but if they can seal Hypnotism Jutsu in the Chuunin exam scrolls, who knows what Naruto might have unleashed if he'd read further...
 
RE: The Naruversity

If that were true, then how did Kakashi make so many clones at the climax of the Wave Arc when he noted himself that he was running on fumes? He would have split his remaining stamina 50+ ways.
Simple: either he LIED and didn't actually use Kage Bunshin(hence "Kakashi version") or he DID use Kage Bunshin, and none of them could do much beyond moving without dispelling themselves.
He was bluffing anyway.
who knows what Naruto might have unleashed if he'd read further...
Shinigami-summoning booby trap?
 

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

...But there's no evidence that Kakashi lied. I mean, a lot of people thought he did (I remember years back I read a lot of fics that "explained" that he used the regular Bunshin,) but apparently their understanding of the Shadow Clone could have been flawed all along. The theory I'm arguing in favour of not only ties in neatly with Tobimara's explanation, but would also allow Kakashi to make a ton of Shadow Clones and not pass out/die, while yours... wouldn't.

Sorry, but I think I'm right. What scene in the manga actually led you to believe Kage Bunshin can regain stamina by eating/resting anyway?

Edit: Huh. Were me, knight504 and Altered Nova not paying attention when chapter 644 came out and Tobirama explained how the chakra of Shadow Clones resonates with the originals?
 
RE: The Naruversity

nixofcyzerra said:
Sorry, but I think I'm right. What scene in the manga actually led you to believe Kage Bunshin can regain stamina by eating/resting anyway?
One of the Naruto Bunshin(the one fighting the Third Raikage, IIRC) flat stated he had to rest to get back enough chakra.
Though, I guess, he might have meant he was going to get Chakra from Original Naruto over their link, which would take a while.


Also, I have to correct myself: Kage Bunshin are 1:1 copies of the original at the instant of the creation, with the Chakra circulating at the time split evenly.
The Original's stamina isn't consumed beyond what is converted in the Chakra used for the jutsu.
The Clones, being 1:1 copies, can regenerate their own chakra over rest and time.


EDIT removing double post
 

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Not sure what happened to your post there...

Re-reading Naruto's fight with the 3rd Raikage, I'm not seeing anything about the Naruto Kage Bunshin regaining stamina. He uses KCM against A Jr Jr until he "pushes himself too hard," then switches to Sage Mode for the superior "Danger sense."

When fighting Madara:



He can't use KCM, as his stamina's low enough that going into KCM will allow Kurama to snack on the remainder.



He gather Natural Energy for Sage Mode (was this what you were talking about?)



He asks Tsunade to heal him (by which I assume he means replenish his stamina/stimulate his own recovery rate.)
 
Hidan's Immortality (Knyght)

Knyght

The Collector
Hidan's Immortality (Official Version)

He is the first successful subject of the Jashin Cult's extensive experiments with kinjutsu to create immortality.

Hidan cannot be killed by blood loss, damaged organs, dismembered limbs, disembowelment, suffocation, poison, illness and even decapitation. His body is able to endure any injury inflicted upon, even resist most forms of damage outright, without losing his life force though he is still susceptible to pain. He can even recover from any injury inflicted on his body but, while much faster than other human beings and capable of healing injuries impossible for others, it isn't a fast process in itself. Fortunately for him, he can continue function regardless of most injuries so it is not nearly the kind of handicap that would cripple anyone else.

The only ways Hidan can die is through extreme malnutrition i.e. starvation, old age or the complete destruction of his body. Hidan's body will slowly but surely wither away without sustenance even though he is capable of surviving such a state far beyond any other human being, his body still ages like normal so he is able to reach a point where he could die a natural death, and if his body is damaged to the point that he cannot endure or regenerate then it is simply impossible for his life force to continue to exist.

The easist method of dealing with Hidan is not to kill him but to incapacitate him; loss of limb may not kill him but he would still limit his mobility, especially if his head is detached from the rest of his body. He would still be alive in that state but unable to control his body, leaving him completely helpless.

His defeat at the hands of Nara Shikamaru ensured his death as he slowly rots away from his starvation, unable to move with his body scattered undeground and unable to heal without sustenance. By the time of the Epilogue, Hidan was long since dead. The Way of Jashin, however, was not.
 
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Hoozuki Clan and Hydrification Jutsu (Knyght)

Knyght

The Collector
Hoozuki Clan and Hydrification Jutsu (Official Version)

This jutsu is the pinnacle of Water Release which allows the user's entire body to be liquefied and solidified at will, literally transforming them into a mass of water bound by chakra. They can turn parts of themselves into liquid while the rest remains solid, control their water form just as naturally as they control their human form, control the consistency of that liquid so that it can act like regular water, syrup, oil or even jelly, as well as redistribute the water content inside their solid body to pump up their muscles for superhuman strength.

It is the hiden ninjutsu of Kirigakure's Hoozuki Clan and of the Land of Water's ninja clans lacking a kekkei genkai, they are undoubtedly considered the greatest. It was invented by one of the greatest masters of Water Release in shinobi history and it was only through their genius and thorough understanding of water chakra that they could discover a way to transform their own body into the element itself. They passed their affinity for water and this jutsu down to their offspring who learned it from a younger age, used it throughout their lives and then passed it down to their descendants, so on and so forth. Thus the Hoozuki Clan was born like so many others.

The Hydrification Jutsu is the very first jutsu taught to every member of their bloodline once they learn to harness their chakra. This is a common practice among ninja clans but the Hoozuki have two very compelling reasons to do so. The first is because of the difficulty of the jutsu; it may not be nearly so hard to learn the jutsu as it was to invent it, but it takes time to use it effectively. The second is because the user is immune to harm from physical attacks when it's active but is as vulnerable as anyone else when inactivate. By mastering this ninjutsu to the highest level, it becomes possible to maintain it indefinitely as long as they have enough chakra so that they become incredibly difficult to kill or even hurt.

But when struck by a strong enough force, the feedback from having their body so violently dispersed can leave them in a jelly-like state of unconsciousness such as when Suigetsu was struck by a Tailed Beast Ball. It wouldn't cause permanent damage but they are incapacitated for a time. And an even greater weakness than this is lightning jutsu. Their liquid bodies make them highly conductive so the usual effects of lightning jutsu are significantly amplified, leaving them in incredible pain and unable to properly liquidize their bodies from the paralysis.

And an unfortunate consequence of the constant use of this jutsu and the liquid nature of their body typically means that they can suffer from relatively low stamina as they, quite literally, evaporate from heat and exertion. The effect is reduced depending on the strength and skill of the Hoozuki but the best counter to the problem is water. It is standard practice for them to keep themselves hydrated with water bottles carried on hand.

On the other hand, a Hoozuki near a large enough source of water is practically inexhaustible as well as near-invulnerable as they can make that water a part of their own body and use it as an extension of themselves. Few things can stop a Hoozuki when near a river, lake or sea. Only the ice-wielders of the Yuki Clan were willing to challenge them on such terrain during the Warring Clans Era. The animosity between these two clans was almost as famous as that between the Senju and Uchiha. It was thought of as ironic considering how powerful a union of their abilities could have been.
 
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nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

knight504 said:
Hidan's Immortality
I wonder what would have happened if Hidan had been hit with a Dust Release Jutsu.

knight504 said:
Hydrification Jutsu
I've recently been seeing parallels between this Jutsu and Kakuzu's Earth Spear. While Kakuzu's ES involves using Earth-natured chakra-flow to utilise Earth's secondary property of density/"hardness," the Hoozuki clan somehow figured out how to apply the primary property of Water-natured chakra flow to their bodies, literally transforming into water held together by chakra.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Personally I would have made the Hydrification Jutsu a body modification jutsu, considering that being liquid seems to be Suigetsu's normal state (as evidenced by him reverting to a jelly like form when unconscious). But simply being so good at the jutsu that he can use it even in his sleep works too.

You also forgot to mention the jutsu's vulnerability to lightning jutsu, and how it grants the user a limited degree of shapeshifting ability even in their human form, such as when Suigetsu enlarged his arm for temporary super strength.
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

nixofcyzerra said:
knight504 said:
Hidan's Immortality
I wonder what would have happened if Hidan had been hit with a Dust Release Jutsu.
I'd call that the definition of "complete destruction". I would wonder what would happen if he were hit by it with his curse jutsu active.

I've recently been seeing parallels between this Jutsu and Kakuzu's Earth Spear. While Kakuzu's ES involves using Earth-natured chakra-flow to utilise Earth's secondary property of density/"hardness," the Hoozuki clan somehow figured out how to apply the primary property of Water-natured chakra flow to their bodies, literally transforming into water held together by chakra.
There's probably a few ways to look at it. It could be the literal pinnacle of elemental chakra flow jutsu, it could elemental chakra flow combined with the transformative principles behind a jutsu like Konan's, or it could be more biological in nature and is based on the human body being mostly water and taking that up to 100%. Or just all the above.

Altered Nova said:
Personally I would have made the Hydrification Jutsu a body modification jutsu, considering that being liquid seems to be Suigetsu's normal state (as evidenced by him reverting to a jelly like form when unconscious). But simply being so good at the jutsu that he can use it even in his sleep works too.
I was on the fence but permanent changes seem to fall under kinjutsu like what Kakuzu, Deidara and possibly Orochimaru did to themselves, IIRC. Konan and Tsunade made me think of a more semi-permanent version. And I liked the idea that they aren't so vulnerable in their early years as a ninja. I saw Suigetsu like that in Daybreak: Part 1 where he shows up Pre-TS and isn't as good as his older, canon self.

The other stuff's been added.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

Do you think it would make sense to add a bit about how only ninja with extraordinarily strong affinity for water jutsu can learn the hydrification jutsu, and the Houzuki clan have a hereditary affinity for water? That seems like it should be a requirement for what is basically the absolute pinnacle of water release ninjutsu. It could help explain why we never see other ninja turning their bodies into elements.
 

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

Might as well. So it's a jutsu that requires an extreme innate talent for Water Release to master the chakra transformation involved.

I feel like I could throw in some more backstory to the jutsu for context. :hmm:
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

Hydrification Jutsu has been redrafted.

And I was working on an Explosion Corps/Exploding Clay entry and realised that Viz had apparently messed up the translation here:

knight504 said:
- Deidara didn't come up with his explosive clay creations until after he escaped with the kinjutsu and his pursuers used explosive clay to stop him.
Narutopedia's version makes a lot more sense to me with "Using explosive clay to take out his pursuers, Deidara found the art he had desired." So Deidara stole the kinjutsu and used it on himself, then used exploding clay for the first time during his escape which he thought was the best thing since sliced bread.

Also, Kakuzu's Earth Spear is said to make the hardened body part immobile in the official translation but there's no mention of that in the online translation by Shounensuki (who's generally trusted more than Viz for translations), which is why it isn't on the wiki.
 
Sasuke's Missing Tomoe (Knyght)

Knyght

The Collector
Sasuke's Missing Tomoe

When Sasuke awoke his Sharingan in the battle against Haku, he had one tomoe in the left eye and two tomoe in the right. This was very unusual as the Sharingan has only ever awakened with a matching number of tomoe. Usually it has one in each eye, occasionally it has two and the very first Uchiha was said to have been born with all three tomoe in each.

The reason for its unusual state is because Sasuke's Sharingan first truly awoke - with one tomoe in each eye - when he was seven years old in response to the murder of his family and the betrayal of his brother. But witnessing his brother's tears after everything that had happened that night too confusing and distressing for Sasuke to accept. He desperately suppressed the memory so that he could focus on his revenge and never realised that he awoke the Sharingan.

At times, he would remember that event but it wasn't until Obito revealed the truth that he came to accept what happened.

Sasuke didn't realise his Sharingan had awoken at the time and just like those dormant memories, it too was forced into dormancy until he was pushed to the limits of his ability in battle. Even so the experiences and strength that Sasuke had gained in the meantime meant that his eye had tried to evolve but, in its dormant, it couldn't do so completely. However it didn't take the long for it to take on a more natural appearance as his left eye developed its second tomoe by the time of the Chuunin Exams.
 
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Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

I'm curious as to what the limits of the Hydrification Technique are. Stabbing and cutting will just be laughed off, and even Gai would have a hard time doing any damage with blunt force considering a point blank bijuu-dama only knocked Suigetsu unconscious with no permanent damage. But the technique must have some kind of fatal weakness.

Can lightning jutsu kill a hydrified ninja or does it just incapacitate them?

Does a hydrified ninja have a minimum mass they must maintain to stay alive? So, if you stuck an explosive tag inside of Suigetsu, would he die or would he pull himself back together like the T-1000?

If he does need to maintain a minimum mass, could you wear Suigetsu down by slapping him a thousand times, each slap knocking off a few ounces of water until he shrinks below the lethal mass limit? If he can reform, would he eventually run out of chakra from repeatedly reforming and die?

What if you evaporated Suigetsu with a high level fire jutsu? Would that kill him or would he become a sentient cloud of steam until he cooled off?

What if Haku froze him with ice jutsu? Would that kill Suigetsu? Would you also have to shatter him to finish him off?

Is a hydrified ninja still "biological" enough that poison would hurt them in their water form? Would they be unaffected while in their water form but succumb to the poison when the shifted back to human form? Or could they just isolate and eject the poison from their liquid body?

Edit: A related question: Does a hydrified ninja's liquid body still contain their DNA? Or do they revert to human flesh when they die? I ask because I'm now wondering how Kabuto got a sample of Mangetsu's DNA to revive him.
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

:hmm:

Well, I'd say you've got to exhaust him to the point that he can't sustain the jutsu and becomes as human as anyone else, directly force the jutsu to end for the same reason or make him use up so much chakra in that state that he can't survive. Lightning and ice jutsu would probably only incapacitate him and I'd expect he could get rid of drugs and poisons. So the main method would be to give him enough of a beating that he can't pull himself together anymore. Blow him up, tear him apart and/or evaporate him enough times and he wouldn't able to keep it up, I guess.

Edit: A related question: Does a hydrified ninja's liquid body still contain their DNA? Or do they revert to human flesh when they die? I ask because I'm now wondering how Kabuto got a sample of Mangetsu's DNA to revive him.
Revert to human upon death since the jutsu would be forced to end.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

So if you exploded or evaporated or froze-and-shattered bits of Suigetsu's body off, would you say that he could pull those parts back to him T-1000 style (at the cost of some chakra), or would he just replace them by converting some of his chakra into new pseudo-water?

It may seem like a minor distinction, but I'm curious because if he can maintain control over parts of his liquid body that are separated from his main body, that would imply that he could possibly copy Muu and split himself into multiple independent bodies. Sort of like creating Water Release: Shadow Clones without handseals just by pinching off pieces of himself.
 

Knyght

The Collector
RE: The Naruversity

I think it's a bit of both in that he'll yank his water back (or it comes back automatically, not consciously) but he can make new water when needed to. Only definite bit I could find on it - after checking Karin bashing his head in and A tearing his arms - was here where he's shown controlling a part of his body at range which he then reabsorbs into his foot on the next page.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

I wonder if the Gentle Fist would have any effect on a hydrified ninja. Or if they could liquify and open their Gates at the same time, since they wouldn't have solid muscles to shred from overuse.

knight504 said:
So the main method would be to give him enough of a beating that he can't pull himself together anymore. Blow him up, tear him apart and/or evaporate him enough times and he wouldn't able to keep it up, I guess.
knight504 said:
Revert to human upon death since the jutsu would be forced to end.
...Ew. I suppose most Houzuki funerals must be closed casket events then. I wouldn't want to be the guy who has to recover the body.
 

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

I've always thought that Juugo's Sage Transformation is more interesting than Suigetsu's Hydrification.

I mean, the shapeshifting is weird enough by itself, the "Jets" are probably a result of either several existing Tenketsu being shifted to a specific area or new one's being temporarily created (although why this doesn't screw Juugo's chakra pathways up beyond a Hyuga's wildest dreams baffles me,) and then you've got the Cellular Regeneration Absorption/Ejection, where Juugo can literally suck up someone's body and chakra through a "flesh-straw" to heal himself, and transfer his own flesh to someone who's body has been exposed to his own enzymes. Which has the side-effect of making him younger somehow (although I doubt his cell's "distance" from the Hayflick limit changes.)
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
RE: The Naruversity

I've never been able to decide if Juugo's Sage Transformation power is the result of him absorbing too much nature energy or a separate kekkei genkai that's just powered by nature energy.

On the one hand, actual Sages have displayed some degree of shapeshifting ability. Jiraiya and Kabuto have both partially transformed into the animal species that taught them senjutsu. And the Juubi is made of Nature energy and it changes shape constantly.

On the other hand, Juugo's shapeshifting is far more powerful and flexible than anything displayed by any Sage, and other Sage's partial transformations are actually considered to be a negative side-effect of failing to perfect Sage Mode, which isn't supposed to transform the user. Kabuto also stole Juugo's ability to passively absorb nature energy and he never grew any arm-axes or chakra jet boosters or "flesh-straws", implying that Juugo actually has two kekkei genkai and Kabuto didn't steal the Sage Transformation one.
 
RE: The Naruversity

Also, losing mass doesn't make Jugo younger, it only makes him smaller, IMHO
 
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