Naruto The Narutoversity

ankokudaishogun · May 26, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Yeah. They make quite a deal about only the best Genin getting in the exams.
Which makes sense, at the very best every year only 16 Genins out of hundreds would make Chunin, which is quite not enough given that would happen often and Konoha alone has a Chunin+jonin force numbering in over 100k.

I also speculate that most Genin become Special Chunin before (if ever) reaching the regular rank.

Knyght · May 26, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Altered Nova said:

I can't say it bothered me since it's really just giving a label to a group we assume exists anyway. I figured they were either be senior genin who were off the active mission roster and were permanently placed within a village department, or they were chuunin promoted outside of the exams purely for admin duties and doing the same thing. This just gives them a proper name.

That reminds me; where do graduates who fail the jounin's test fit into this?

ankokudaishogun said:

The Allied Shinobi Forces was 80k in total and made up of six armies, so it's more like 13k assuming an even split between them.

Altered Nova · May 26, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

knight504 said:

I assume they are sent back to the academy briefly for remedial training to address whatever issue the Jounin cited for disqualifying them (lack of teamwork in most cases), and then given another shot with a less famous/elite jounin or special jounin sensei. I don't think the village would actually discharge any genin that the academy instructors have declared fit for duty and given a headband (that would both wasteful and cruel), so if they are passed over enough times they'll eventually just be assigned a chuunin sensei.

knight504 said:

What knight said. Not sure where you pulled this 100k+ number from, or why you assume there were no genin among their ranks.

And no they don't really make that big of a deal about only the best genin getting in the exams. They do make a big deal about only the best genin making it to the third round, but there were plenty of losers who got disqualified in the first and second stages. The exams are pretty clearly open to just about any genin who wants to participate, so long as they can get some teammates and their jounin sensei's permission (if they still have a sensei, there were quite a few older genin in the exam, including one old man).

And 32 potential new chuunin per year (the exams are held bi-annually) honestly sounds quite generous to me, considering that only 27-36 new genin graduate from the academy per year.

Knyght · May 26, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Was browsing through Narutopedia's Shinobi Organisation System now that we're on the topic on ranks and wad reminded of Sai's spiffy new rank as a Chubu which means Support Division. I'm wondering if it's either the Anbu being renamed after the Fourth Great Shinobi War because of the changing world order or if it's the new name for Root that had probably been reincorporated into the mainstream ranks.

And there's also mention of Kumo's Head Ninja which brought to mind different village having special ranks of their own (like hunter-nin, perhaps?), plus village leaders who aren't Kages (is there a universal name for those guys?) and wasn't there something odd about Ame's ranking system mentioned in the third databook? Also the "unranked" such as missing-nin and those yami-nin that Jiraiya smashed with the first demonstration of the Rasengan.

So...you feel free to get started on those, Altered Nova.

ankokudaishogun · May 26, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

I recalled, incorrectly, the Alliance numbers being ten times they were(800k instead of 80k)
Doesn't really discredit my point, though.

The only Chunin Exam we see(in the manga) has a Third Phase with 10 people because too many matches would be a too long show. So I guess the forced average is 6-to-10 genin for the Third Phase... when there ARE so many in first place. And not everybody gets promoted.
I guess a reasonable average(when there aren't many clan heirs with war experience, if limited) would be 6 promotions every year. Distributed among different villages.

So, yeah, with a 13k people force, Konoha getting at best an average of 4 Chunin every year doesn't make any logistic sense.
Unless Chunin Exams are the main way to get promoted to Chunin directly from Genin, while most shinobi first become Special Chunin, which would be the real backbone rank of the Villages.

For no Genin in the Fourth War: we don't see, to my recollection, ANY Genin in the War(except Naruto and Sasuke, I guess). Especially the horribly overpowered Konohamaru. Given we have a chance to see every named character we know fighting, it's quite unlikely Kishimoto wouldn't show Konohamaru.
Also: it makes sense. It was a giant-ass battle, not exactly the best place for unskilled\unexperienced shinobi(aka most of the Genin)
Them being left at their home villages or anyway far from the battlefield with logistic and resupply duties would be the most logical course of action.

Altered Nova · May 27, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

knight504 said:

Gotcha. I'm already planning to include Jounin Commander as an official rank above Jounin. I've based it on the presumed rank of the Jounin on the Konoha Council who apparently have the authority to nominate a kage, which include Shikaku, Danzou, Homura, Koharu and an unnamed ANBU commander. I figure that Head Ninja is probably Kumo's equivalent to that rank.

ankokudaishogun said:

The thing is, the only thing genin are really good for in a ninja village is being cannon fodder in a large scale conflict, because they can't take profitable missions. That's why I theorized that most genin who can't make the cut to chuunin are actually placed in a reserve force, only to be called back into duty when the village is low on manpower because they've joined a war or something. If the villages won't call their genin into duty when the fate of the freaking world is on the line, and they can still field *that* many chuunin and jounin... the only way that makes sense is if the vast majority of genin actually do get promoted. Which seems backwards to me since chuunin are officers, and what kind of army is mostly made up of officers?

ankokudaishogun said:

I... huh. I think you may be on to something here. Maybe Special Chuunin shouldn't just be an administrative rank for non-combat personnel. Perhaps Special Chuunin should be the equivalent of the Specialist/Corporal rank, or a junior non-commissioned officer. Something all genin get promoted to eventually as long as they aren't completely incompetent.

-

Maybe the ranks should be something like this:

Genin - equivalent of a private. Can only lead D-rank missions, which are generally non-profitable and only given out for training purposes. Can participate in C-rank mission under the command of a higher ranked ninja. Has no authority to command other ninja during times of war.

Special Chuunin - equivalent of a sergeant. Can lead C-rank missions, and participate in B-rank missions under the command of a higher ranked ninja. During a war, authorized only to lead a single squad of three genin or junior special genin.

Chuunin - equivalent of a lieutenant. Can lead B-rank missions, and participate in A-rank missions under the command of a higher ranked ninja. During wars, authorized to lead a platoon consisting of 8-16 ninja (two to four squads).

Special Jounin - equivalent of a captain. Can lead A-rank missions and participate in S-rank mission under the command of a Jounin. Durings wars, authorized to lead a company of 27-102 ninja (3-6 platoons).

Jounin - equivalent of a colonel. Can lead S-rank missions. During wars, authorized to lead a battalion of 84-618 ninja (3-6 companies).

Jounin Commander / Head Ninja - equivalent of a general. These are senior jounin who are outranked only by the Kage. They play a significant role in the governing of their villages, forming a council that advises the acting kage. They have the power to ratify a kage candidate chosen by the previous kage or the daimyo (my explanation for why Danzou was only given the title of Hokage Candidate in the databooks, the Jounin Council hadn't approved of him yet) and in extreme cases, can impeach an acting kage by unanimous vote on the grounds of gross incompetence (the fate I believe Danzou would have faced if he'd lived to return to Konoha and informed them he'd gotten Konoha kicked out of the shinobi alliance by attempting to brainwash a foreign leader). In times of war, Jounin Commanders are authorized to lead a division of 255-3714 ninja (3-6 battalions).

(Higher temporary ranks may be created during large scale conflicts, such as the ranks of Regimental Captain and Regimental Commander that were used by the Allied Shinobi Forces during the Fourth Shinobi World War)

Kage - equivalent to commander-in-chief. The leader of an entire shinobi village, and commander of all ninja within the nation that hosts that village.

What do you guys think of that?

ankokudaishogun · May 27, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

When Iruka explains ninja ranks to Naruto, Chuunin WERE the average backbone of the village.

So:
Genin: noobs.

Special Chuunin: Genin who got good/experienced enough to join higher ranked missions, but still lack the foresight to become a regular Chuunin. Most DO become regular Chuunin after grinding EXP as Specials.

Chuunin: ninja with enough experience and foresight to be team leaders. In modern days, most are promoted Special Chuunin, but there are still some who become Chuunin straight from Genin, usually because a Chuunin Exam (it's a great point of pride being promoted at an Exam)

Special Jounin: Chuunin with a higher clearance, usually because some speciality field they are skilled in.

Jounin: Ã‰lite Ninja.

Jounin Commander/Ninja Head/AnBu Head: those, along others (all of them depending on the village. I. E.: in Kumo the Konoha figures of Jounin Commander and AnBu Head are covered by the Ninja Head) , are mostly bureaucratic titles. They deal with the day-by-day affairs of their sections, referring to the village head who then decides.

Kage/Village Head: the boss of the village. Only the Five Great Villages have a acknowledged Kage as boss. The actual title of the boss of a minor village varies on the village, some even call themselves Kage (but nobody outside their village acknowledge them as such)

Knyght · May 27, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Not sure I like Special Chuunin being able to lead in any capacity; participate in C-ranks and B-ranks (with good reason) but not lead. I'd leave that to Chuunin and above.

Though I can't say I have any proper knowledge of real-life military, ranks or otherwise.

Edit: Any 'leading' the Special Chuunin do would be purely on an administrative level within their divisions rather than on missions.

ankokudaishogun · May 28, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Official Clan Symbols!(down right)

Uzumaki, Uchiha, Senju, Sarutobi, Hatake, Nara
Akimichi, Yamanaka, Hyuga, Aburame, Inuzuka

Knyght · May 30, 2015

I may have intended to write more for this but it's been sitting in my saved drafts for months now (probably because one of nixofcyzerra's post covered the same thing) so I'll post it as is.

Chakra Absorption

Chakra Absorption is the ability to absorb another person's physical and spiritual energy. It works by reversing their natural chakra flow to draw in chakra from outside of their body into their body through their chakra points, as well as converting those energies into something compatible with the absorber's chakra system. It has the effect of replenishing the user's stamina whilst draining the enemy of theirs and can be used through physical touch, ninja tools or ninjutsu.

An absorber's strength is measured by how fast they can absorb another person's chakra. They can only absorb as much chakra as their body can withstand; once they have reached their peak in stamina, they become incapable absorbing any more chakra until they use it up. It's not actually possible to kill someone through his method since once the target's stamina drops to a certain level, their body absolutely refuses to allow any more chakra to be taken from them. But by this point, the victim's chakra is exhausted and they are left helpless.

When used with ninjutsu, it becomes to not only absorb chakra from the target's body but from their jutsu as well. to be empowered directly by chakra stolen from a target's body or jutsu. For example, Hashirama's Wood Release: Wood Dragon Jutsu has the ability to feed on the chakra of the target it has bound to render them unable to escape and Kisame's Water Release: Great Shark Bullet Jutsu absorbs an opponent's ninjutsu to grow larger and more powerful after its release.

This is not an ability that can be learned but is instead a rare trait that appears in only a small percentage of shinobi like chakra sensing. But there are more Sensors in the world than "Drainers" and while everyone can sense chakra to one degree or another, most people can't absorb chakra at all. The rarity and nature of the ability has earned it the stigma of being called an "unholy jutsu" for centuries.

The Blocking Absorption Seal of the Rinnegan's Preta Path is the pinnacle of this ability. It creates a barrier that can absorb huge quantities of chakra of any nature or shape. It can drain the chakra of a living creature through direct contact or it can steal the chakra from a jutsu, the barrier blocking and stopping any jutsu in its tracks to be swallowed by Preta Path.

Knyght · May 30, 2015

An attempt to explain where some of the extra special weapons came from - since I don't like my Legendary Tools entry anymore - and linking them to some real life mythology. It's a shame the Yasakini Magatama were Susanoo's jutsu instead of being another spiritual weapon to complete the set.

Swords of Kusanagi/Totsuka and Yata Mirror

When Otsutsuki Indra chose to wage war upon his brother after their father's passing, he forged three tools to fulfil his purpose; two swords and a shield.

The Sword of Kusanagi was forged with physical energy to embody the material world; enchanted with everlasting sharpness and durability, a blade that extend indefintely and the ability to fly at the wielder's command. Supposedly it was once used by Indra to kill an eight-headed snake, an ancestor to the snakes of Ryuuichi Cave.

The Sword of Totsuka was forged with mental energy to embody the spiritual world; enchanted with fuuinjutsu and genjutsu seal its victim inside a "world of drunken dreams". It's also called the Sakegari Longsword as the blade is sheathed in a sake jar; liquid inside takes the shape of a sword when 'unsheathed'.

The Yata Mirror is another weapon of the spiritual world with the power to change its characteristics to any nature transformation to completely negate any attack, whether it be spiritual, or physical.

As ethereal weapons, Indra could manifest the Sword of Totsuka and Yata Mirror through his Susanoo. He could still wield them as regular weapons - just as anyone else could - but it was for the sake of empowering his Susanoo that he made them in such a specific way.

In the present day, the Sword of Kusanagi belongs to Orochimaru who modified it with the ability to shapeshift into a snake which he keeps sealed inside his body. The Sword of Totsuka and Yata Mirror belonged to Itachi who, guided by his learning of shinobi history and perhaps his ancient bloodline, found the long-lost weapons. Whether they can ever be retrieved after his death is a mystery.

Knyght · May 30, 2015

One Handed Seals

Also known as half-seals, these are hand-seals that only use a single hand to cast jutsu.

The most common example is the Seal of Confrontation, a half-seal for concentrating chakra and initiating mastered jutsu. The greater a ninja's mastery of their jutsu, the fewer hand-seals they need to activate it until they need only Seal of Confrontation or don't need hand-seals at all. Unsurprisingly, E-rank and D-rank jutsu are usually performed with half-seal because they are the fastest to learn, easiest to use and the first to be taught. But even advanced ones like the Shadow Clone Jutsu can be used with this method.

Using true one-handed seals - where the jutsu is activated with a sequence of half-seals - is a rare skill. By using only one hand, it takes twice as much effort to activate their jutsu until their mastery of it (the jutsu and/or the half-seals) grows enough to compensate. But the main reason it's rare is simply because it's hardly ever needed. The majority of ninja use the standard method and become skilled enough to minimize or remove the number of hand-seals for their jutsu while bypassing half-seals entirely.

In fact, many ninja never even think of the possibility in the first place.

The only ones who would need to learn it are those unable to use both hands, such as if they had lost an arm. But even then, most of those wouldn't be active combatants even if they did learn to use half-seals instead.

Nevertheless it can be very useful for catching an opponent off guard by attacking or defending when one hand is occupied, so particularly experienced or intelligent ninja are likely to know a few jutsu they can pull off one-handed.

Cooperative Hand-Seals

This is a method of casting hand-seals where two ninja link hands and each perform half of a hand-seal, creating the complete hand-seal together. Originally it was used by teammates to perform cooperation ninjutsu as the act helped them match their timing and chakra ratios with one another to launch their jutsu together. Though they could only perform the same jutsu instead of combining separate ones.

This was later perverted in its usage for assassination (or even suicide-assassination) ninjutsu whether one ninja forces another to participate in casting a jutsu by performing the hand-seals, making them vulnerable to its deadly effect. For example, Orochimaru once developed the Twin Snakes Mutual Death Jutsu for that very purpose as it would summon snakes from the user's arm to inject themselves and the victim with deadly venom.

Altered Nova · May 30, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Good entries there. Might wanna go over them again though, there's quite a few grammatical errors.

About chakra absorption, I feel like that might actually be two rare abilities being combined together. The ability to reverse one's chakra flow in order to create "suction" within their chakra coils so as to draw in foreign chakra, and the ability to transform the stolen chakra to adapt it to their own chakra type so they can actually use it themselves.

I say this because we've seen Orochimaru absorbing chakra from Kabuto, but he only took chakra that originated from his own body that Kabuto had taken. He's never actually absorbed anyone else's chakra. So I suspect that Orochimaru may have been born with or given himself the ability to absorb chakra through body modification, but he lacks the skill the transform another person's chakra to be useable (and absorbing incompatible foreign chakra sounds like a bad idea) so he never uses it in battle or on anyone else.

And transforming the chakra to match your own chakra type is basically the same skill that Naruto and Minato use to give their chakra to other people with the Chakra Transfer jutsu. But most chakra absorbers probably only learn how to adapt chakra to their own type (so they can use stolen chakra) and lack the skill to adapt chakra any possible chakra type on the fly that Naruto has displayed (so they can't give it to others). This ability seems to be something that can be learned by anyone, since it also seems to be the basis of most medical jutsu and Tsunade and Sakura are also capable of transferring their chakra to others.

About One-Handed Seals, I feel the main reason they are rare is simply because it takes twice as long to perform a jutsu with one hand as opposed to two. After all, regular handseals *are* basically just two one-handed seals being used together simultaneously. Therefore the only reason to use one handed seals is when one hand is incapacitated. If both your hands are free and uninjured, then using one-handed seals is a pure disadvantage unless you've mastered the jutsu to the extent that only a single one-handed seal is needed to activate it.

Knyght · May 31, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

It honestly gets to the point where I just want to post the damn thing instead of reading it over and over. Especially when there's three of them.

So what happens when someone only has the first ability? Only being able to absorb your own chakra sounds limited to the point of uselessness considering how a situation requiring it would almost never happen. The exception being Orochimaru himself.

Wouldn't it be simpler if Orochimaru's chakra absorption, whether it's natural or artificial (or perhaps because it's artificial), is at the lowest end of the scale? His ability works like anyone else's but is very ineffective for stealing another person's chakra. It works best on his own chakra which is something he refined because, unlike anyone else, he gets up to weirdness like giving out curse seals of his own chakra and possessing people.

Edit: In other news, I've just added a collection of information from the databooks and books onto my site. Y'know all that extra stuff that shows up outside the character biographies and jutsu entries. Plus there's links to all the databook-related webpages I know of.

Altered Nova · May 31, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

knight504 said:

Maybe. I just know that the manga has explained that you can't just give your chakra to another person, you have to transform the chakra to adapt it to their unique chakra type or they won't be able to use it. It seems to me that the same rule would logically apply to taking another person's chakra by force, but in reverse - you have to adapt the stolen chakra to match your own chakra type or it will be useless to you.

What if both explanations are true? Perhaps some chakra absorbers have to learn how to adapt foreign chakra to match their own type through training before they can actually utilize their inborn ability to absorb chakra, while others are born with more advanced kekkei genkai that also grant them the ability to instinctively adapt the chakra they absorb.

Just had a thought - maybe this is why the Preta Path's Blocking Technique Absorption Seal is a fuuinjutsu? Perhaps the "seal" part of that jutsu automatically adapts the absorbed chakra to the user's type for them.

Knyght · May 31, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Not sure I'd call it a more advanced version so much as a difference in natural aptitude for it, but yeah. So a chakra absorber wouldn't be measure just by their draining speed but by how much of the chakra they drain they can adapt for use.

There's a translation note for the Preta Path's ability which says "with the kanji for "technique absorption" placed between the two kanji used to write "seal," emphasises the blocking and stopping aspect of the seal."

Its ability to stop jutsu in their tracks is rather unique so I could see where they're coming.

Knyght · Jun 1, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Y'know I was working on a post about Sasuke during the training month - the whole two weeks instead of four weeks things - and found myself growing confused. Specifically when Kakashi says that Sasuke copied Lee's taijutsu and then was able to master the style with hard work.

It confuses me because the only time Sasuke ever saw Lee fight with his Sharingan active was right before this moment. And we know he copied that because he used it against Yoroi.

But before that his Sharingan was off and after that he was unconscious for Lee's fight against the Sound genin and wasn't present for his match against Gaara. So how does copying a single move become mastering his style? Lee, Gai and Sakura recognized that Sasuke was moving just like Lee yet he hardly seen any of his movements in the first place.

And Kakashi has no reason to lie. He's been Gai's rival practically his life; he may not use it but he's likely copied practically all of the Strong Fist at this point. So if, for instance, Kakashi had claimed that he had taught Sasuke the Strong Fist along with the Chidori, it really wouldn't have been a big deal. And I say that because the idea that Kakashi had Sasuke copy the taijutsu that he had copied from Lee when his Sharingan was uncovered seems redundant with him being Gai's rival.

Did Kishimoto simply forget that Sasuke had only seen a fraction of Lee's abilities. Or does the Sharingan's mimicry let you recreate a fighting style even if you just copy a small portion as a starting point? Dreaming of Sunshine explains it as Sasuke imagining Lee's movement (from what he had copied) and then copying that. Something like that then? :hmm:
mean that copying a small portion of a fighting style

ankokudaishogun · Jun 2, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Kakashi is Guy's Eternal Rival.
Also, right after Guy states it's just "hastily learnt taijutsu"

Sharingan doesn't directly copy techniques. Sharingan gives the user a better INSIGHT(and possibly some eidetic memory? It was never stated IIRC).
It's then up to the user to replicate the feat... which is made MUCH easier by said insight.

Kakashi probably used the insight Sasuke gained with the Sharingan to retro-engineer the moves he had watched without the Sharingan. Remember he also watched Naruto getting his ass kicked.
Add some tips and, since Sasuke is a genius, he managed to master THE BASIS of Lee's style.

Knyght · Jun 2, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

The Sharingan "memorizes the techniques their gaze falls upon in an instant, and replicates them" and that "Chakra, handseals... all the principles bringing the jutsu into existence will be recorded into the caster's memory in the blink of an eye, making its utilization possible."

The limits being chakra volume and physical requirements. In this case, Sasuke lacked the stamina to maintain his speed and physically intensive attacks (quite possibly why Gai called it hastily learnt). And the eye of insight "discerns mechanics of all ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu without restriction".

So I see what you mean when you combine those and what he'd seen from Lee if you count when his Sharingan was and wasn't active. It just seems a very small foundation for him to pull it off as well as he did considering he never saw the match with Gaara or Lee with his weights off.

ankokudaishogun · Jun 2, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

Thanks for the reminder.
But wasn't stated in the databook that actually USING the copied jutsu was up to the user's ability?

Also, Sasuke didn't show really that much. If anything, he did mastered the footwork

Knyght · Jun 2, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

ankokudaishogun said:

Not quite, just what I said about limits: "Of course, the necessary volume of chakra and physical ability requirements must be met, but should one find themselves in some kind of dire situation, the Uchiha blood will demonstrate its accumulated experience, and never will those who have inherited it know any limits."

ankokudaishogun · Jun 2, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

I probably mis-remembered and expanded on this(I think we had such a discussion, previously?).
Well, this IS the narutversity thread so...

Sasuke had to learn Nature Manipulation before learning Chidori, because it's a technique that specifically employs Nature Manipulating one's own chakra into lightning chakra.
Prople have different level of skill in Nature Manipulation, too: a Zabuza with a Sharingan would be unable to replicate Tobirama using Suiton SuiryÅ«dan because Zabuza is simply not skilled enough in Nature Manipulation to skip SO MANY hand-seals.
Likewise, Rock Lee would probably be unable to copy a simple Katon GÅkakyÅ« because Lee really sucks at ninjutsu.

The reason KAKASHI is known as the Copy Ninja is because he's a super-genius which enabled him to replicate most jutsu he has witnessed regardless their element and difficulty.

ankokudaishogun · Jun 3, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

from my own post:

ELEMENTAL TECHNIQUES

Elemental techniques don't NEED nature transformation, full stop. Or shape manipulation.

Both can be substituted by hand-seals.
But greater the mastery over nature and shape, less the hand-seals one has to use: see Zabuza's and Tobirama's Suiryuudan, as well as Sasuke's Chidori.

Some higher ranking techniques probably NEED a degree of mastery to be actually usable: Zabuza, who most likely had a reasonable mastery of water transformation, had to use THIRTY hand-seals for Suiryuudan. Without mastery, it's likely they would have been so many more that the technique would have left him busy for too long, becoming unusable on the battlefield.

Knyght · Jun 4, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

I had an idea for justifying the existence of a made-up rank like Special Chuunin.

It could be that Special Chuunin as an official rank came much later than the other rank which were created after the hidden village system was first implemented. Originally, the admin work we're talking about was done by older genin, assigned chuunin or even non-ninja who would serve best there in such a role, like I said before. Special Chuunin was originally an unofficial term for those who work in that kind of role regularly but eventually became a real rank.

So because of its newness and the nature of the role, it stays in background and is almost forgettable in comparison to the 'real' ranks.

Knyght · Jun 4, 2015

RE: The Naruversity

New Entry: Sasuke's Training Month

And I've gone and combined the theories section with the reread section but it didn't really seem worth keeping them separate. Meh.

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