The views of the TSAB in Nanoha

[PCHeintz72]

As/Season 2 is by far the best, but StrikerS isn't bad either. I don't think StrikerS has been released on DVD though.

Oops, correct, it is not available yet retail...


I will say this... I watched 6 eps of StrikerS fansubbed way back... it is why I waited so long to bother with Nanoha... I was not impressed.

StrikerS makes absolutely no sense unless you've seen the first two seasons. At the very least it doesn't have the substandard quality of the first season's opening episodes, but still. As is hard to get into unless you've seen Season 1, but at least it's awesome all around.

When I got those 6 eps of StrikerS... it was actually a mistake on my part.

Someone was mentioning Nanoha some 3 years ago and praising it, can't remember which forum or whom pointed me to it. I in an unusual move did not bother checking and thus did not know it had multiple seasons... and I got the first one I found... StrikerS.

Since I was busy, and it did not overly apeal from the character interactions, I just put *way* back on a back burner...

Now, since I've more time free, and been bored with the fanfiction scene, and most of the new shows do not appeal, decided to revisit it when I saw it on a good sale boxed at Rightstuf the other week.

 

[Nanya]

A's is the best season between the 3 animated seasons straight from the get-go and never stops being great. So, yeah, A's is one to get and watch.

Hayate had monstrous potential?

I thought she had no potential at all until she got the book.

Huh... *shrug* I'll have to go back and look through the Sound Stages and manga then to know for sure.

 

[Tom_Badgerlock]

A's is the best season between the 3 animated seasons straight from the get-go and never stops being great. So, yeah, A's is one to get and watch.

Hayate had monstrous potential?

I thought she had no potential at all until she got the book.

Huh... *shrug* I'll have to go back and look through the Sound Stages and manga then to know for sure.

The author said Hayate had around Nanoha's potential, but it was expended by the book (though in my own pet theory it also crippled her control).

As for Fate, iirc she has more potential than Alicia, and the colour of her magic is the same as the one during the incident that killed Alicia (which didn't help Precia being decent to her).

 

[Gx Hero]

My view on the TSAB is that it is like any other Government. Grey zones and thin lines. However Comparing it to earth's military may not be the best way

Reasons: Grew up with Magic. Technology using magic can do many things good and evil.

The concept of using magic for weapons is actually pretty good since it is harder to kill people with it. Also your big guns mostly are the high level magic users like Nanoha so no one can bully another easily. After all why not just make it that guns with live ammo are military only unless it was better this way. Also if it was that bad they would never put children under 15 in the army. Regardless of maturity their minds are still forming and the reaction to blood shed would cause problems later such as them becoming a cold killing machine.

Also if the two major requirements for joining is having a certain level of technology and world government actually takes away most of the dark elements of government.

Also I think the military is completely detached from local governments for safety reasons, like what Regius did and worse.

In short regardless of some of the set backs the TSAB is aiming for a fairy tail like government and military system.

Finally my view on the combat cyborg idea. Bad Idea, sure you get a super warrior, but if they went rouge, having to keep doing it. Mental health, aging , and creating personality that gose with what weapon they wield. Plus miss use of cloning technology could be more of a danger, replace certain members after clones with memories and subliminal thoughts, using them for unethical operations since they don't exist. Technology leaking to crime syndicates.
The raptors for force is a better option. They can be more easily massed produced and thus more able to help in areas where there is low man power instead of having a handful of cyborgs placing them where their specialties are needed. Plus it is ethical.


Sorry for the long drabble had to get that off my chest.

 

[Rising Dragon]

There's no indication that the Bureau is an actual government, though. It's a police force at best.

 

[Andarion]

There's no indication that the Bureau is an actual government, though. It's a police force at best.

From my perspective TSAB seems to be something along the lines of UN Peacekeeping Troops.

 

[PCHeintz72]

My overall views of TSAB are known, not generally liked by the fandom, and I'm not going over them again... but a couple things caught my eye:

The concept of using magic for weapons is actually pretty good since it is harder to kill people with it.

Bwahahaha... I have no idea why you would believe any such thing.

The only reason people survive magic is using magic, ie get hit with a magic blast, have a magic barrier jacket to take some of the damage.

You also have to account for the fact we are watching almost entirely elite battle hardened forces or magical prodigies (depending when in series you are watching), not the rank and file as it were.

There's no indication that the Bureau is an actual government, though. It's a police force at best.

I judge them paramilitary myself, borderline military based on some of their actions in regards to their personnel. They have bases, and handle everything from space invasions to dimensional threats, to the normal investigations in the city...

I see no real indication of a separate force dedicated to police action only. A pity, as the two disparate ways of thinking and handling things would probably be good for them.

We do know different divisions of the force exist of course, not just from the uniforms but from the infighting shown.

Having said all that... they are pretty loose when it comes to standards (among many other things that shall remain unsaid), at least to my way of thinking...

From my perspective TSAB seems to be something along the lines of UN Peacekeeping Troops.

Except generally speaking the UN and its attached forces only goes where it is asked to. think of the Miryamar flooding a few years back.

Closest match in my eyes from the start has been Stargate SG1...

 

[Nanya]

PC, I point out Laguna, she got shot in the eye with a magical attack, she survived, though her eye was ruined.

 

[Rising Dragon]

Quattro and Dieci survived getting overwhelmed by massive magic beams, without the aid of magical defense systems...

 

[keroko]

To be more specific, it isn't "harder to kill with magic" but "easier not to kill", as magic has an optional "stun mode." Subaru even directly refers to this during her fight with Ginga, and Shamal mentions it to Teana after Nanoha cooled her head.

 

[Hoki]

It was even mentioned as one of the advantages of magic (one other is that it was relatively cleaner than other energy sources) during Fate's exposition/ history lesson in StrikerS.

 

[PCHeintz72]

You guys do realize that non-magical means of subduing people exist, even without killing them... shooting in the leg for example... shock batons, tazers, sprays, staff fighting, etc...

And if magic was so safe... and if having a good 'stun' or 'non-kill' mode that was so much a failsafe and the TSAB really trusted their agents to use it, then they never would impose enforced restictions on their top agents...

And I could easily see a kill occurring if someone like the Knights were a little more bloodthirsty and decided not to let the victims live with a drained linker core and instead just fully rip it out of them.

Magic is a tool, innate or not, and can be used to kill, defend, build, or destroy, just like many other weapons. To think or believe otherwise is foolishness...

EDIT: As for it being clean... it may well be, but like any other energy, it would have its tradeoffs... like needing magically oriented people to empower something, or use it. Take a magically empowered light spell... not only could a non-magic oriented person not use it, it would not work in magic null zones... a simple battery or crank light is not dependent upon either.

 

[Deathwings]

If you're referring to the restrictions put on Nanoha and her friends in StrikerS, then you're wrong. Those limiters were put in place for POLITICAL reasons. Once they were no longer part of Riot Force 6, all limiters were removed and everyone was once again free to use their magic at their discretion.

 

[Kaijo]

You guys do realize that non-magical means of subduing people exist, even without killing them... shooting in the leg for example... shock batons, tazers, sprays, staff fighting, etc...

ure, there are non-magical ways to take someone down, but a Divine Buster is considerably more effective than someone with a tazer and a bottle of pepper spray. I'm sure you wouldn't argue that point. Magic simply is more effective than any technology we have in use. They have nuclear weapon level destructive power as well, without the downsides of radiation.

And if magic was so safe... and if having a good 'stun' or 'non-kill' mode that was so much a failsafe and the TSAB really trusted their agents to use it, then they never would impose enforced restictions on their top agents...

You misunderstand the reasons why Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate got limiters. They were there for political reasons. Without them, a unit would simply attempt to gobble up the best mages and become the strongest unit, leaving all the others weak. So now you still can gobble up the best mages, but your overall power will still be the same as everyone else. And Hayate's RF6 was still a special exception that was only allowed to operate for 1 year, before being forced to disband.

This is similar to what happens in our military as well. The command staff attempts to keep units fairly balanced and even, so if one unit decides to go rogue, it isn't one that has tons of power. We don't trust our own soldiers. It's smart thinking. We have rules and restrictions all over the place because we don't trust other humans. That's just a fact of life.

And I could easily see a kill occurring if someone like the Knights were a little more bloodthirsty and decided not to let the victims live with a drained linker core and instead just fully rip it out of them.

Magic is a tool, innate or not, and can be used to kill, defend, build, or destroy, just like many other weapons. To think or believe otherwise is foolishness...

Not sure where you are going with these points. Yes, it's a tool. So? It's an incredibly effective tool. Far more effective than what we have today. And not something that can simply be sold off to a terrorist organizations. It ties power into the hands of a specific individual, which can then be targeted.

EDIT: As for it being clean... it may well be, but like any other energy, it would have its tradeoffs... like needing magically oriented people to empower something, or use it. Take a magically empowered light spell... not only could a non-magic oriented person not use it, it would not work in magic null zones... a simple battery or crank light is not dependent upon either.

The TSAB uses plenty of normal tech, too. It's just that, when it comes to it's police forces, they rely on magic primarily. As far as non-magic people, well, you can use magic as an energy source. So you could pack magic into a magical battery that powers a magical flashlight, that a normal person could use. And if you had a magic friend, you could probably have them recharge it. Our batteries, if not used, will eventually drain and die on their own. There's no indication that the same would happen with magical battery.

And our batteries are toxic and need to be disposed of properly. Judging by the way they spew spent cartridges all over the place, there is no such concern with magical energy storage devices. Once drained, it is just a hunk of metal. If nothing else, that advantage alone makes magic leagues better than normal tech.

 

[Gx Hero]

Magic can kill someone, but must mages don't have that type of power. Elemental affinity is another question though. But for example could a human that isn't sankt Kaiser Vivio survive. But the amount of people that could kill with magic that hasn't trained is low, and I doubt we all practice martial any more diligently as magic.

oh and there is a police force, at the confrence before Scaglati's attack, that were investigating the truck that was carrying vivio and at the hotel where Agusta where we see yunno for the first time.

Ow and about the balance of power thing it is not the soldiers to not trust but the comanders. Look at Regius and his subordinates were following orders.


Otherwise I agree with Kaijo

 

[keroko]

Magic can kill someone, but must mages don't have that type of power. Elemental affinity is another question though. But for example could a human that isn't sankt Kaiser Vivio survive. But the amount of people that could kill with magic that hasn't trained is low, and I doubt we all practice martial any more diligently as magic.

Uhh, what exactly do you base that on? Magic has a stun mode, but that doesn't mean lethal magic is inherently more difficult to perform.

 

[PCHeintz72]

You misunderstand the reasons why Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate got limiters. They were there for political reasons.

Actually, I assumed that was the public cover up reason. The simple fact is there is no point to make a special troubleshooting team of some of your best to take on the worst the universe can throw at you and then limit them.

I could accept limiters on the more rank and file in force 6, not the team leads and the true commanders...

No... I assumed it was fear... on two completely different fronts.

1. at the lower rank levels... they actually did seem genuinely afraid of Nanoha and company cutting loose with the power she could wield...

2. at the higher rank levels... since they are the ones to approve unlocking, I assumed it was placed on mages under their control so they could not take out their own corrupt superiors if it ever came to that.

Consider the horrible implications if they truly did come across an emergency situation where time was of the essences.

Could you really picture something like:
"Excuse me Mr. Evil person, I cannot stop you at the moment due to my limiter... but could you hold on your world ending event until I can call in, explain what you are doing, have them debate it, vote on it, and come back with a answer to allow me to fully power up to stop you?"

As if...

It ties power into the hands of a specific individual, which can then be targeted.

Nonsense, spells and powers like anything else can be learned, and in the case they cannot be duplicated, can be reverse engineered.

ure, there are non-magical ways to take someone down, but a Divine Buster is considerably more effective than someone with a tazer and a bottle of pepper spray.

You seemed to have missed the point...

I really do not get this inherent 'magic is so good it is difficult to kill with' concept that permeates magical girl show fandoms...

I'm stating there is no inherent rule that give magic some form of 'safe' designation... *Anything* can be used to kill a person. Even a plastic spoon can inherently be a deadly weapon... Too much of anything, even love, is not always a good thing.

And before ability is brought up again, I should like to point out a simple concept...

Power <> Skill <> ability to think of ways to kill

They are three completely different concepts. And apply to far more than merely magic, though that is how I'm going to apply it here.

That they *can* make one more effective, more efficient, more productive is beside the point... they are not required... and a person with a surplus of one can make them far more dangerous than a balanced person...

Take someone with relatively little magic power, and perhaps little skill, let us say someone whom can literally just heat enough water in a tea cup to make it boil...

Someone with that ability could turn around and do the same to the blood in a body... imagine super heated blood being circulated to the brain... or used on the eyes...

Do not discount the mundanes, or muggles, or those of little talent... it could well spell your end.

EDIT: another easy example occurs... those nifty energy shackles that we've seen Nanoha and others use... it is clear they are under their control and can move a person, they were used to spread eagle them in more than one scene... what if more force was use... you could literally rip a person apart, or tear the head off it around the neck, or tighten until they die from lack of air...

 

[Gx Hero]

I think my point was missed or I said it wrong and honestly it dosen't matter since you seem to get it.

but its funny everyone at riot 6 has a unique uniform and everyone else has a standard issue. Imagine Nanoha wearing a standard navy or ground force barrier jacket.

 

[Akiyoshi]

I remember Signum and Vita sometimes wearing a red battle uniform, can't remember to what division it belongs, though.

 

[Kaijo]

PCHeintz, again, I don't know what point you are trying to make.

Sure, you CAN use magic in ways that is deadly, or at the very least torture. It is a tool, whose use depends on the wielder. So WHY is it better than normal tech? Because it is MUCH easier to take down dangerous criminals and contain disasters. If you're hiding in a building with hostages, I can go control several small magic balls that will infiltrate the building and accurately smack down everyone before they can shoot anyone. Or just fire off a beam that leaves the building mostly untouched, and just knocks out everyone inside simultaneously.

Magic can do things that tech can't touch. And it does it in ways that are environmentally friendly. If you remember Fate's history lesson to Erio and Caro, several planets were destroyed, and others rendered uninhabitable, due to the use of normal tech weapons (the implications is that nukes were used). And as Erio said, "You need only make something, and anyone, even a child, can use it." You hook up a nuke to a button, and anyone can press that button. With Earth, that means you have 7 billion people who have the potential to cause a lot of harm.

Now, if you switch to magic, you have maybe a few thousand who can cause harm(per planet)... and a great deal of them are on your side and are actively working to help contain disasters.

We completely acknowledge the point you seem to be making: that magic can be used in deadly and harmful ways. Now acknowledge the other side, which is that tech can do the exact same thing, but puts that power in the hands of every single human. You've essentially multiplied your danger facter hundreds of millions of times. Magic cuts down on the number of people able to cause great harm, and multiples the power of people who can act to prevent harm. A single Nanoha can take out an asteroid hurtling towards the planet. Earth can't deal with that yet (unless we spot it years away, and can manage to subtly nudge it's trajectory in time).

Hell, watch episode 1 and 2 of StrikerS again, and see how Hayate pus out large sections of an airport fire all by herself! How would your tech handle that? How would you argue it's better? Because at the beginning of the episode, they showed normal guys with tech trying to handle the fire, and failing badly.

This is why, if you paid attention to Fate's explanation, that the Bureau chose to use magic to enforce security, rather than mass weapons (or biological weapons, or chemical weapons, etc; all things which are vastly more dangerous than magic with no real safe uses). They can enforce order and police crimes in higher safety and security than could ever be attained with tech. Both the safety of officers and the safety of civilians. Right now, our police don't have much choice when dealing with a dangerous criminal, except by shooting him with a gun. Nanoha can shoot him from around three corners and leave him unharmed to stand trial. How can tech match up against that?

I'm stating there is no inherent rule that give magic some form of 'safe' designation... *Anything* can be used to kill a person. Even a plastic spoon can inherently be a deadly weapon... Too much of anything, even love, is not always a good thing.

Let me respond to this, because in the Nanohaverse, there really IS an inherent rule that gives magic a 'safe' designation. A mage can choose to stun someone, or kill them. Granted, they have to choose to do that in advance, but the choice is there. Whereas with a gun, your choice is just to shoot and hope you don't kill. Yes, anything can be used to kill, including magic. But magic has more options that tech simply cannot match.

 

[PCHeintz72]

Perhaps we are just not getting each others stance.

I am not arguing tech is better, I am arguing magic is *not* better. Both have tradeoffs... Especially in a society with null magic fields...

A tech based society will believe tech is better, a magic based one will believe magic is... it is what they are grounded in.

BUT...

I refuse the concept of 'Safe' in Magic as is being described here. What everyone is calling 'Safe' is not really safe at all, it merely falls under the concept of called will and intent of the user of the magic, or the spell, or the rune weapon/AI... a object or a power source does not have a will, or an intent its safe or danger is described by its user ( though AI and/or Rune based weaponry could be argued to be sentient even if normally enslaved to the will of their master, lets ignore that for now... ).

By this definition of 'Safe' logic used in this thread, I could argue a Star Trek based Phaser, is 'Safe'. After all, I can set it to stun, even ship based phasers can be set as such, or to provide energy... But, call it 'Safe' is dumb thinking indeed, as it conveniently forgets the fact it can be set to kill, it can be set to explode, and it can be blown up, and any of a dozen other scenarios... making it harmful to life.

If you dislike the Star trek analogy, substitute say Babylon 5 for Star Trek and PPG for Phaser... A PPG is not generally used to kill, but with the right will and intent, it certainly can be, calling it 'Safe' is stupid as well...

Prefer a real world scenario instead of Sci Fi or anime... generally speaking, a gun is not 'Safe', but it can be 'Safe' in the hands of a cop or a soldier defending a country, or a citizen defending his home and family... it certainly is not safe in the hands of a criminal intending to do harm... But no matter the use, that gun remains the same... its level of 'Safe' is merely depending upon the will of the one whom has their hands on it.

Thus the term 'Safe' as being used here, is outright stupid, and I do not care if that is canon or not...

 

[Rising Dragon]

Actually, PC, I think you're just trying to argue that the Bureau and its use of magic in society is inherently malevolent.

 

[keroko]

Thus the term 'Safe' as being used here, is outright stupid, and I do not care if that is canon or not...

Your phaser analogy is largely correct. It is "safe" in that sufficient force can be brought to bear against threats without resulting in death. Unlike things like tazers or legshots, which can still kill people. The "risk" of accidental death is non-existant for magic, hence the usage of the word "safe."

 

[Andarion]

Thus the term 'Safe' as being used here, is outright stupid, and I do not care if that is canon or not...

In Nanoha the Safe part is all about the possession. Not ALL people can use magic and very few people can use magic on the level of Nanoha and other protagonist girls. The point between replacing Tech with Magic is that TSAB and governments have much better control over possession and use.

In TSAB area of influence you just won't get stuff like school shootings or IEDs being used to kill people because mass-based weaponry is forbidden and strictly controlled while TSAB usually keeps tabs on the more powerful magic users. It's pretty much like it would be if governments could enforce absolute Gun-Control, nobody except police and army would have them, neither civilians nor criminals, that way the threat level of criminals drops significantly.

Magic is safe because it can be set to stun, guns can't be set to stun, neither explosives or any other mass based weaponry. Guns are NOT safe, even if used carefully to disable they can VERY EASILY tear through some vein and the person bleeds out within minutes, be it a shot in the leg or the arm, it's just that shooting in the arm or the leg has Slightly lower chance of killing a person. Not to mention that there are things like ricochets and over-penetration, you might not even Try to harm a person and yet that person will still die. With magic you don't have that problem, no matter how hard you slam them with magic if it's set to stun it won't kill them (Quattro for example). Not even the supposedly non-lethal weapons are safe, one of my countrymen got tased by police because he was aggressive due to long travel on plane and died from that.

 

[Gx Hero]

agreed. After all for a world like earth with maybe a mage every blue moon it would be far safer to use magic.