The views of the TSAB in Nanoha

[Andarion]

A group of captured and potentially brainwashed or worse rogue mages vs. chemical weapons? There is a nasty tossup... I'm not seeing a benefit of one over the other.

Except it's FAR easier to get your hands on chemical/biological weapons. With mages you'd first need ones with considerable potential (B, hopefully A Rank) you'd have to capture them, brainwash them and then somehow make sure they don't get caught because then you'd have to start from scratch. Pretty much like using tanks to commit terrorist acts while everyone else has anti-tank weaponry.

Now compare that to chemical/biological/nuclear weapons. ANYONE can use those, you don't need specific individuals, you don't need extensive brainwashing/training "Just push this button here or open this valve here" and you already have something that can kill thousands if not millions.

Also the chemical/biological/nuclear weapons are FAR more dangerous than magical attacks. With magical attacks you can really only get Blown Up or simply killed, it works on limited number of targets. The WMD weapons are far scarier
Even if chemical weapons doesn't kill you it can cripple you for life and it will poison the very water you drink.
Did you know that there used to be between 20 to 100 milion Indians in North America before whites came. Did you also know that around 90 (Let's say it agai NINETY!)% of them got killed off by diseases brought by the whites? It wasn't even malicious, whites just came, brought their small pox and other stuff with them and then it up and killed nearly the ENTIRE population. Show me magic that can do that.
And do I even need to mention nukes? They can easily kill a whole city and those who survive either die several days/months afterwards or gets to live on but die at some point of cancer and their kids will be probably disfigured. And you can't even repopulate given area because of the radioactive fallout.

Switching to magic is all about the fact that the number of potentially dangerous individuals is FAR lower and you can keep an eye on those. What does it matter that a mage goes rogue/get brainwashed if you probably know who he is, how to track him and capture him?

 

[PCHeintz72]

About the whole world goverment, I think it is not that dumb. To stand at the galactic stage and form part of the TSAB, I do think that most worlds should have a world government, even if it is something like the UN that stands as a coalition of multiple countries in a single world.

Then that is little different form my own stance... as long as there is a single government structure in place for outsiders to contact or serve as a single representive structure for diplomatic, legal, trade, and military response I see little reason to really require a planetary government in place.

PCHeintz, can I ask you a question? I think part of the reason you dislike the TSAB is because you feel they act without consulting the Earth's authority and just do whatever they want in our territory in clandestine manners. Is this right?

My views are already partially in this thread, and most fans of the series disagree with them... which really matters little to me except in that there is very few MGLN fan fiction stories that share my views. They extend far beyond TSABs regard of Earth side authority. But I've actually been trying hard not to go into any of that yet again on this forum.

It actually is sad, as despite what many may think... I had seen a lot of potential and liked a lot about the series.

But what I got out of it... very few seem to have seen it in the same light... all the darkness, all the corruption, all the evil is right there, blackmail, humans abusing power, all in shades of gray and not black and white. They are mere humans, and human based organizations, with more abilities and powers... but have all the darkness in them as we do.

*That* was the single greatest thing I thought about the series.. it did not whitewash everything like other magic girl shows, like say Sailor Moon. It was not all black and white.

I do not like the TSAB or Midchildean society because quite honestly I thought and still do think they were not meant to be liked. Excepting their fear of mass based tech... they are no different than us in reality... flawed and corrupt with lots of infighting.

The beauty of the setup was Nanoha and Fate and Hayate, three of the predominant good guys, were *not* raised by that society even if they work within it... thus serving as a contrast, and a anchor on the moral good.

I've only come across a handful of stories I've liked dealing with MGLN, most are crossovers. Only seen 1 to date truly covers the bad sides of the TSAB as I see it in realistic fashion... and it has been inactive for some time.

Another question... do you think the Earth as it is can negotiate with a group like the TSAB as an equal? Please answer me... I am curious of your opinion.

No chance... such would require each side giving up more than it would be willing to do.... on completely different fronts. I'm not convinced the TSAB would take Earth seriously enough, and I'm not convinced the Earth would be willing to give up any sovereignty...

Except it's FAR easier to get your hands on chemical/biological weapons. With mages you'd first need ones with considerable potential (B, hopefully A Rank) you'd have to capture them, brainwash them and then somehow make sure they don't get caught because then you'd have to start from scratch. Pretty much like using tanks to commit terrorist acts while everyone else has anti-tank weaponry.

It certainly can and has been done in series, so I fail to see why it could not be done again by others.

A human is a human. Brainwashing, blackmail, rogue agents, sabotage, it can has, and does happen...

Easy... no. I never said was easy.

And you are seriously limiting yourself in viewing trained mages as merely tanks or bombs or even sleeper agents, that is a waste of evil potential... You could be using them to craft stuff, or gain intelligence from, use for remote sabotage, insight insurrection, or learn spells from, etc....

Three rogue agents in the TSAB in one season alone sabotaged operations enough to nearly force an *inadvertent* instance of orbital bombardment from a capital class ship of the line into a population zone on an un-adminstered planet. In a different season it caused a good amount of death at one of their own elite force bases...

Now compare that to chemical/biological/nuclear weapons. ANYONE can use those, you don't need specific individuals, you don't need extensive brainwashing/training "Just push this button here or open this valve here" and you already have something that can kill thousands if not millions.

The real issue with this in concept is it is a flawed comparison because there is no way you will make me believe someone in the Nanoha verse that wants chemical weapons cannot easily make them or use a spell to make them...

Thus, chemical weapons, which would be illegal on both planets, are obtainable on both...

 

[Andarion]

Three rogue agents in the TSAB in one season alone sabotaged operations enough to nearly force an *inadvertent* instance of orbital bombardment from a capital class ship of the line into a population zone on an un-adminstered planet. In a different season it caused a good amount of death at one of their own elite force bases...

Except that doesn't have anything to do with MAGIC, and that's the point you are trying to make. That was just good old spy work, magic was merely a tool that wasn't really relevant.

The real issue with this in concept is it is a flawed comparison because there is no way you will make me believe someone in the Nanoha verse that wants chemical weapons cannot easily make them or use a spell to make them...

Thus, chemical weapons, which would be illegal on both planets, are obtainable on both...

Sure if someone wants it he can get but that still doesn't have anything to do with magic. TSAB's administration space is a place where mass-based weapons and WMDs are forbidden. You can't use MAGIC as a chemical/biological or nuclear agent. You need THE Chemical/Biological/Nuclear agents for that and that has nothing to do with whether a society is based on magic or not.

In fact it PROVES that TSAB's concept is right because the terrorist had to resort to TECH methods because he couldn't do much damage with magic alone.

Also you completely ignored my description of WMDs. Come on! Show me a mage that can by himself make as much damage as one of the three WMDs.

One more little thing. Let's make a little comparison. WHEN a mage can become dangerous?

Okay to make a mage dangerous you need several things:
- Potential (need to have considerable amount of power)
- Training (at least several months if not years of continuous training
- Device (probably a rather expensive piece of equipment which also needs to be customized in order to work well with a mage)

To make an ordinary person dangerous:
- No need of any special talents or potential
- Requires only minimal training (a couple of weeks of firearms training and he can shoot things or no training at all if he just needs to blow himself up
- Weapons? Firearms in Middle East are dirt-cheap with ammo being even cheaper. Explosives as far as I know can be made of friggin FERTILIZER which you can buy at your nearest Gardener Shop.

 

[keroko]

The beauty of the setup was Nanoha and Fate and Hayate, three of the predominant good guys, were *not* raised by that society even if they work within it... thus serving as a contrast, and a anchor on the moral good.

That's a little bit backwards, isn't it? You're claiming that Nanoha, Hayate and Fate are the exception to the rule, the moral compass that will vanquish the corruption the TSAB is drenched in.

And yet, statistically, it is the corrupt who are in the minority. How many corrupt characters have we had? 8. If we include side characters. How many characters have we had that conform with the interpretation of the TSAB as a society with mostly good intent? Every single other character.

 

[Gx Hero]

I tend to agree. especially since it is the Higher ups, and since soldiers follow orders, most of the time, it makes up a lot of the actual corruption, one in a million.

Though I think it may be due to the three brains of the high council being stuck in those jars for so long. Not being able to go outside and do normal things is gotta have an effect on them.

I wonder how they will bury the brains. Here lies the brain of the high council.

Anyway I agree with Keroko. pchintz72 be a little more optimistic, the ente Nanoha series is in fantasy so what if it dosen't make sense.

The Nanoha Universe is diffrent than ours, therefore if everyone is good then so be it. If Jail has a cosplay fetish so be it. But I really like this show because it is one of the few shows were magic is used so widely in a technological society without having to hide. Real magic duels, without the weapons of traditional war.


Also the TSab is set up where people think a certain way, most people on Mid-childa have probably never seen a real firearm. There preconceived notions about things are diffrent even as they grow up. After all if society thinks a certain way then it is safer than worrying people will do something stupid for corrupt reasons.


THough if were talking about back stabbing, I think the high council got what they deserved, they do illegal research and it bites them back.

 

[Kaijo]

PCHeintz, it seems as if you would prefer the governments of Earth, over the TSAB, if you had to pick one in charge. This is baffling, because I can think of no government of Earth that can match the Bureau.

I don't know where you live and what you think of your own government, but I live in the US; supposedly the best country on the fact of the planet. And yet... we lock people up without reason, detain them as long as we want, suck up all the data about you such that we can ruin your life on a moment's notice. We kill without trials. We funnel money from the poor and middle class to the rich. We have violent gangs. We have thug police. We lock up more of our own people into jail that every other country on Earth (both per capita and raw numbers). We have a government that is rapidly becoming fascist. Our government either makes war on other countries that don't play ball, or we lean on them economically. And we, the people, are powerless to stop it. During elections, we have two choices at most, and both are bad. Anyone who thinks differently and tries to run, is ignored by the media and has is so outclassed via money, that they can't compete. I don't care what country you are from, odds are the US has fucked with you, and can still do today.

I see none of that from the Bureau. So far, the reasons you have given for not liking the Bureau, or trying to bring magic down, are things based out of your fear of what could be.... not what is. All you bring to this thread is fear of the unknown, and if mankind had stayed in that state, we would have never left our caves.

So, you haven't provided any evidence for how bad you *think* the Bureau might be. Because even at it's worst, it's still leagues better than any government on Earth. Hell, the Bureau is so adverse to getting involved, that even on an administered world like Orussia, they haven't gotten involved in the brutal, ugly civil war that's going on there... with mass based weapons!

A nuclear bomb is a valuable tool... it can be used for good (ex. blowing up asteroids or system defense) or evil (ex. potential terrorist acts or as currently employed to strike against fellow humans)... the problem has always been man, not the device.

Uh... no. You haven't done the science of nukes and asteroids, but suffice it to say, if an asteroid is coming towards earth, a nuke would be but a pinprick on it. We'd be much better off apply some thrusters to it, and subtly altering it's course. I can tell you've watched a law of movies, like Armageddon. In short: that's bad science and not like reality at all.

No... nerve agents I agree have no use... they could not likely be used against aliens for example, as we have no clue if they would even be affected since we would not know their biology.

Wait... your defense for nerve gas is that it might be useful against aliens? For all we know, ketchup may be useful against aliens! Again, your lack of research shows. From what we've learned about the universe, it is extremely unlikely that any aliens we encounter will be anything like us. And they will be so far advanced that there will simply be nothing we can do them. If they want to conquer us, they can. No amount of nerve gas will change that.

A group of captured and potentially brainwashed or worse rogue mages vs. chemical weapons? There is a nasty tossup... I'm not seeing a benefit of one over the other.

I'd like to see you try to kidnap and brainwash Nanoha. Which do you suppose is easier? Doing that, or getting your hands on sarin and nerve gas in Syria in all that confusion? Or getting your hands on a nuke in the chaos following the collapse of the USSR?

And if you can't see the benefit of one over the other, then you clearly have not done even a modicrum of research into chemical weapons. They can spread and affect people far outside the delivery area. All it takes is a small drop to totally fuck someone up. If you haven't seen the list of ailments that come with sarin or nerve gas, or seen the grostesque, disfigured images of those affected... well, I can tell you haven't. Because if you had, you wouldn't be wondering.

Did you know that both the biscuit and football have been misplaced and lost? Not just for minutes or hours... but for days and months? That's right, the ability to destroy a good chunk of the planet, had been lost and could have ended up in the hands of who knows what.

I remember reading about it.

Good. Because this will never happen with a mage. Nanoha can't misplace her magic and have someone else use it. If they take her device, she's fine, and there is no danger. Ergo, Magic is safer than tech.

The existence of such organizations, or individuals, does *not* negate what I said in that most of humanity, even in Nanohaverse, is motivated by their wants, their desires... Precia, Jail, a couple corrupt generals... there is *plenty* of evidence given that despite being from a different planet, from a pure morals and human desires standpoint, they are *no different from us*.

Whether you talk magic or tech, it can be used by good or bad people... whether you talk forbidden items... or illegal items... bad people can get them...

Ah, but it is less likely to happen in the Nanohaverse due to... magic! They still need to investigate smuggling rings, but magic makes taking them down easier (and transformation magic makes infiltration easier). And you are conflating the general human condition with the Bureau, which is false. The Bureau gets better than normal humans because it attracts those that want to do better. Like the Red Cross naturally attracts those who want to help out.

Look, dude, when everyone here agrees you have no point, you might just want to consider that you might be wrong. I've disagreed with Andarion on things before and had some lively debates with him. So the fact that we agree here should say something (and be downright scary!).

 

[Andarion]

Look, dude, when everyone here agrees you have no point, you might just want to consider that you might be wrong. I've disagreed with Andarion on things before and had some lively debates with him. So the fact that we agree here should say something (and be downright scary!).

[Not sure if should pout over people not liking him or be proud of the dread he inspires...]

 

[Gx Hero]

I find it funny that the only thing we talk about here is the weapons. How about a diffrent topic such as marriages. after all their all nanoha Fate fans.


Or agito for president.

 

[Andarion]

I find it funny that the only thing we talk about here is the weapons. How about a diffrent topic such as marriages. after all their all nanoha Fate fans.

[chuckles] This reminds me some wacky ideas I had about Good Dad Jail who equipped Subaru with a fully functional futa "as a birthday present from Dad" and she went and got Teana pregnant with it.

 

[PCHeintz72]

Except that doesn't have anything to do with MAGIC, and that's the point you are trying to make. That was just good old spy work, magic was merely a tool that wasn't really relevant.

It is not just a Mage one need worry about, it is anything they can make... And I do not really mean a Weapon AI like Nanoha or Fate among others have.

Consider an Arc En Ciel, which is considered to be "a 'Magic Cannon' capable of destroying everything within a 100 km radius of the target point by distorting the time-space of that region." I consider it to count...

Someone at some point in the past made the book of darkness, and/or caused its corruption. Same end result, and disastrous consequences in its appearances

Some of the lost logia count....

Form the Arc En Ciel and the book of Darkness we *know* magical power can be stored in an object and then released... all things considered there is nothing to state some other mage or mages could not make something similar.

In fact it PROVES that TSAB's concept is right because the terrorist had to resort to TECH methods because he couldn't do much damage with magic alone.

No...

Keeping chemical and nuclear weapons out of terrorists hands is correct whether you live in a magical world or tech world. That was never in dispute. I was saying it is wrong to consider at least mass based and nuclear based weapons totally illegal due to fear as it is a giant blind spot. It can bite them in the butt sometime down the road...

That's a little bit backwards, isn't it? You're claiming that Nanoha, Hayate and Fate are the exception to the rule, the moral compass that will vanquish the corruption the TSAB is drenched in.

Not really, that requires them 'winning', how would you define such a win. I was more focused on them being in such a world...

Ah, but it is less likely to happen in the Nanohaverse due to... magic! They still need to investigate smuggling rings, but magic makes taking them down easier (and transformation magic makes infiltration easier).

No... if this was truly the case, they would have Jail within an episode of the appearance of a Numbers.... I imagine for any advance in tracking Magic can give, there are ways using magic to stop or delay or confuse it.

And you are conflating the general human condition with the Bureau, which is false. The Bureau gets better than normal humans because it attracts those that want to do better. Like the Red Cross naturally attracts those who want to help out.

I've already noted that there are noble humans, and noted that my views do not preclude the existence of organizations like Red Cross...

If the humans are *ssssooo* much better that the TSAB recruits and have running things, why are so many of them corrupt?

Also... it does not take a whole lot of bad people to bring a system down... 1 bad apple can ruin things for everyone, as the old saying goes.

Anyway I agree with Keroko. pchintz72 be a little more optimistic,

I am by nature a cynical pessimist.

the ente Nanoha series is in fantasy so what if it dosen't make sense.

Any series, should be able to be argued within its own framework...

The Nanoha Universe is diffrent than ours, therefore if everyone is good then so be it. If Jail has a cosplay fetish so be it. But I really like this show because it is one of the few shows were magic is used so widely in a technological society without having to hide. Real magic duels, without the weapons of traditional war.

Except we know with absolute certainty that practically all human sins still exist in that world... Greed, contempt, power seeking, betrayal, attempted child assasination/imprisonment, and means justifying the ends...

And these are from a good number of the *good* guys... and they are humans... not demons, gods, dragons, robots, etc...

To me, this makes the series near unique among magic shows.

The bright point, the key drawing point *is* the darkness in the series.

Look, dude, when everyone here agrees you have no point, you might just want to consider that you might be wrong. I've disagreed with Andarion on things before and had some lively debates with him. So the fact that we agree here should say something (and be downright scary!).

You are entitled to your view... and I am entitled to mine...


I'm still say I'm saddened by the wasted potential of this series.

 

[Andarion]

Consider an Arc En Ciel, which is considered to be "a 'Magic Cannon' capable of destroying everything within a 100 km radius of the target point by distorting the time-space of that region." I consider it to count...

Except to be actually used they need to install it first and no ship in TSAB fleet has it by default. It took the threat of Book of Darkness to even PUT that thing there and it required the authorization of the Captain to launch. It's nothing like the nuclear-armed submarines which could launch their load pretty much by accident (because they were convinced that nuclear war started)

Someone at some point in the past made the book of darkness, and/or caused its corruption. Same end result, and disastrous consequences in its appearances

Some of the lost logia count....

Form the Arc En Ciel and the book of Darkness we *know* magical power can be stored in an object and then released... all things considered there is nothing to state some other mage or mages could not make something similar.

Except Book of Darkness is Belkan creation while there are SEVERE limitations on Arc En Ciel, an ordinary bastard won't get his hands on it like he could on other WMDs. Arc En Ciel requires a ship to install it on and then a generator to power it. It's not a "push the button" WMD anyone can easily use.

 

[PCHeintz72]

I find it funny that the only thing we talk about here is the weapons. How about a diffrent topic such as marriages. after all their all nanoha Fate fans.


Or agito for president.

What is to argue? I'm of the general opinion in real life or in a anime or sitcom, as long as it is consensual and all parties considered adults, and no one is being hurt... let them do what they want...

Having said that... The only draw to the series for me is Nanoha/Fate/Hayate... pretty much no one else I care about at all... so other stories on other relationships would be of little interest to me at all...

 

[PCHeintz72]

Except to be actually used they need to install it first and no ship in TSAB fleet has it by default. It took the threat of Book of Darkness to even PUT that thing there and it required the authorization of the Captain to launch. It's nothing like the nuclear-armed submarines which could launch their load pretty much by accident (because they were convinced that nuclear war started)

You are assuming someone makes the whole system... Really, anyone whom could make the system could make it without the safety locks...

Safety systems are nearly always extras.

Except Book of Darkness is Belkan creation while there are SEVERE limitations on Arc En Ciel, an ordinary bastard won't get his hands on it like he could on other WMDs. Arc En Ciel requires a ship to install it on and then a generator to power it. It's not a "push the button" WMD anyone can easily use.

I was asked on magical examples of WMD in Nanoha verse... these applied... If you are talking hard to get, I would imagine a standard run of the mill bad guy would also have a hard time getting his hands on chemical and nuclear weapons as well... not that it cannot happen... it is certainly feared it will...

But in any case I did not really mean someone making an exact book of darkness or an exact Arc-en-ciel.... I imagine unlike tech, which generally follows specific guidelines, magical creations will be more tailored to the specialties of the creator...

We know the book of darkness had been studied multiple times in the past, so we know records exist somewhere. Records that may well be able to be used to make something not identical, or perhaps even as good, but something that can be used in as destructive a way...

If whomever got the notes was smart enough, may even be able to devise ways to make it unlikely to be countered by the TSAB...

And before anyone things to bring up the notes and magic are highly guarded secrets of the TSAB... I would note Gaiz or Jail probably would not have had much issue getting their hands on them, and I well imagine Graham had the book of Darkness notes for a long time looking for solutions... IF any of the three had different goals... access to internal documents could well have done the world in.

 

[Andarion]

I was asked on magical examples of WMD in Nanoha verse... these applied... If you are talking hard to get, I would imagine a standard run of the mill bad guy would also have a hard time getting his hands on chemical and nuclear weapons as well... not that it cannot happen... it is certainly feared it will...

But in any case I did not really mean someone making an exact book of darkness or an exact Arc-en-ciel.... I imagine unlike tech, which generally follows specific guidelines, magical creations will be more tailored to the specialties of the creator...

We know the book of darkness had been studied multiple times in the past, so we know records exist somewhere. Records that may well be able to be used to make something not identical, or perhaps even as good, but something that can be used in as destructive a way...

If whomever got the notes was smart enough, may even be able to devise ways to make it unlikely to be countered by the TSAB...

And before anyone things to bring up the notes and magic are highly guarded secrets of the TSAB... I would note Gaiz or Jail probably would not have had much issue getting their hands on them, and I well imagine Graham had the book of Darkness notes for a long time looking for solutions... IF any of the three had different goals... access to internal documents could well have done the world in.

Well the main issue with that is that even if they HAD the notes then how do you suppose they make that stuff? Book of Darkness was something highly-advanced and I sincerely doubt they had something as handy as a "blueprint" if they had that they could just repair the Book. The information Yuuno managed to dig up were mostly assumptions and records of previous incidents, I don't recall him finding any specifics on how the Book was built.

Also with both Arc en Ciel and Book of Darkness you are forgetting what kind of tech base would be required to actually create something like that. It would be on the level of creating nuclear weapons, essentially you'd need well-equipped labs and quite a bunch of specialists who'd have to cooperate for an extended period of time. It's just not something a run-off-the-mill mage can get his hands on.

Also with Jail you are forgetting that he pretty much had the backing of the Brains and Gaiz. To give comparison that's like some Third World dictator getting secret resources and aid from USA.

 

[ragnarok1337]

Man, PCH's "arguments" (if his farcical words can be considered such) get more and more incomprehensive.

You are entitled to your view... and I am entitled to mine...

Yeah, you're entitled to it. Doesn't mean that it isn't flat-out wrong. The more you try and defend your views the more deranged you sound.

 

[Azure]

I can't say that Mid or the TSAB are perfect, because they are not, but I do not agree with what you say that only the Ace Trio are the good guys that rise above the bad aspects of Mid society and that the rest of the TSAB is incompetent and bad. I mean, then what are the guys like Yuuno, Chrono and Lindy? They are all decent people that strive to do the right things and I do believe that they can share moral ground with the trio.

Wasn't Lindy the one that adopted Fate and gave her a home? Wasn't Yuuno the one who rushed to Earth to seal the Jewel Seeds out of his own choice because he did not want innocents to be hurt? Wasn't Chrono the one who told those rogue agents (who were his mentors) that they were wrong, that their actions were not what the TSAB stood for and that they had no right to do what they planned to an innocent girl... when he had every right to join them to seal the Book of Darkness that had killed his father and destroyed many worlds?

I can understand that you like the main trio, but do not say that they are some sort of anchor of good in the grey that is the TSAB, because that is not an honest analysis. Many of the members of the TSAB that we were shown are honest and serve to protect others and probably do the right things. Even if parts of the TSAB are corrupt, I believe (even if you call me an optimistic guy) that there are more who stand for what right and will fight against the corruption. Similar to reality I guess.

About magic, I would not call it totally safe, but I can see why it can be preferred compared to mass weapons. So PCH, if you dislike it that much, how do you think the TSAB should handle their mass weapon policy? Do you believe that they should use both mass weapons and magic at the same time (something I agree with)? Do you you think they should stick to using mass weapons (supported by magic) with lower level mages and non-mages and leave a focus to only magics to the higher ranked mages?

About the TSAB, if you disagree with how it acts, how would you improve it? What changes do you think are needed? What things do you think they should have done to handle the first season and As better? How should they handle Earth in their interactions and missions, should they be more open?

I am curious about your opinions, because I tend to not see that much opposition to the TSAB in the fandom, so I want to see what you suggest.

 

[Gx Hero]

we don't know everything about TSab. there is some grey no doubt, however I agree with Azure on this. Especially since we are talking about an anime show.


THough I wonder about anything to do with the airforce since their main role is areial combat weapon testing and combat instructors and seems to be the least talked about and possibly least corrupt part of the bearue we know.

 

[PCHeintz72]

Yeah, you're entitled to it. Doesn't mean that it isn't flat-out wrong. The more you try and defend your views the more deranged you sound.

Different sure, I fail to see how an opinion is flat out wrong... I merely walked away from that series with a far different opinion than you guys apparently did.

I can't say that Mid or the TSAB are perfect, because they are not, but I do not agree with what you say that only the Ace Trio are the good guys that rise above the bad aspects of Mid society and that the rest of the TSAB is incompetent and bad. I mean, then what are the guys like Yuuno, Chrono and Lindy? They are all decent people that strive to do the right things and I do believe that they can share moral ground with the trio.

Ok... that is not really what I meant... the 3 seasons center on them three, not anyone else... even recurring characters. none of those three are raised by TSAB or Midchildean society... Because of that, even if they work in it, they are *not* part of it.

when he had every right to join them to seal the Book of Darkness that had killed his father and destroyed many worlds?

He most certainly does *not* have that right... He may have those feelings, but never that right...

He knew full well by that point what was done... I *NEVER* understood why Graham got off as light as he did considering the sheer number of his crimes.. and in point of fact I've been told in the past by fans of Nanoha that Graham was actually right and that is was actually more humane to plan the assassination and/or permanent sleep/banishment he had planned for a mere sick 9 year old girl and all the backstabbing he did to get that goal accomplished...

I can understand that you like the main trio, but do not say that they are some sort of anchor of good in the gray that is the TSAB, because that is not an honest analysis. Many of the members of the TSAB that we were shown are honest and serve to protect others and probably do the right things. Even if parts of the TSAB are corrupt, I believe (even if you call me an optimistic guy) that there are more who stand for what right and will fight against the corruption. Similar to reality I guess.

But it kind of is true... each became a pillar of good as viewed by their coworkers... Nanoha as a trainer and lead. Fate as a lead and mentor to junior. mage's. Hayate for the multiple acts of good she had done and the creation of Riot 6.

That is not to say others cannot be good, but it is a matter of screen, or air, or read time...

Do you believe that they should use both mass weapons and magic at the same time (something I agree with)?

Yes.

Do you you think they should stick to using mass weapons (supported by magic) with lower level mages and non-mages and leave a focus to only magics to the higher ranked mages?

No... that could lead to a division and stigma in the force... something along the lines of them being beneath a mage, and whom would define the exact dividing line? No... better all tech accessible by all whom is shown as responsible enough to handle it.

About the TSAB, if you disagree with how it acts, how would you improve it? What changes do you think are needed?

Get rid of favoritism in the upper ranks. A internal judicial system should be able to set out proper punishments for the crime committed by members no matter any time in or influence they may have.

I submit punishments submitted to non-members is not valid...

What things do you think they should have done to handle the first season and As better?

Off top of head...

- Fate should have been let off. Her crimes should have been tacked to her mothers... as it is clear she was physically and mentally coerced into them... In no way should she have stayed on that ship for the time she did...

- Get rid of conscription or even voluntary joining of minors. In fact, install a mandatory minimum age at least in the mid teens... power levels or not. Ensures no potential for indoctrination cases...

- Ghraham should have been flambe'd. Off top of head he is guilty of : manipulation of events surrounding a 9 year old, planning permanent assassination/sleep of said 9 year old, hiding the location of book from the bureau for years, conspiring and planning in acts of sabotage against the bureau for his own means, hiding the location of the knights whom were attacking bureau personnel,
allowing terrorist acts against the bureau by the Knights, arranging for and attacking and hospitalizing bureau personnel... using bureau resources and information to allow black ops operations against bureau sanctioned operatives on sanctioned missions. Instead... he got retired to a cottage in the mountains on earth with his two assistants and co conspirators.

- Install a full out mentoring and training program instead, with severe background checks on anyone applying for admission into it as a mentor...

- Not nearly leave a device with a unsanctioned girl for x amount of time and hope for the best. Sure... it worked, there was absolutely no guarantee it would.

- Harsh penalties for influencing/manipulating or mistreatment or misuse of minors with magical potential.

How should they handle Earth in their interactions and missions, should they be more open?

Yes... at least to government heads... as it is I cannot condone TSAB actions in especially first season of not informing earth and just muscling in... And let us not kid ourselves... they were there for the danger the lost logia presented to them, not for the danger it was to anyone in general. It makes them no better than vigilantes.

EDIT: This last is one of the reasons I nearly always equate the TSAB to Stargate SG1... they are *not* good guys, but they are better than the bad guys. This is neither a good or bad thing, it just is... and thinking of them as 'good' is just whitewashing the situation.

EDIT2: Couple other items for the TSAB...

- Would not mind them operating as a sort of Abh (Crest of the Stars) and GP (Tenchi) force...

- mostly patrol and protect the spaceways, promote interplanetary trade,

- allow with planet side government (see prior post on UN Spacy single platform government for outside contact) approval to be called in on cases that may affect them, or at least offer aid in such cases...

- I prefer solar system sovereignty to planetary sovereignty as the Abh demand though. This would allow colonization of solar system and mining of asteroids, and insure resources such as that remain ours, not theirs.

- inability for them to encroach on the planet without permission..

 

[Azure]

Ok... that is not really what I meant... the 3 seasons center on them three, not anyone else... even recurring characters. none of those three are raised by TSAB or Midchildean society... Because of that, even if they work in it, they are *not* part of it.

Mmm but they live in Mid Childean society by Strikers and they raise Vivio in it. I mean if the values the trio have are so diferent, then why do they stay in Mid?

He most certainly does *not* have that right... He may have those feelings, but never that right...

He knew full well by that point what was done... I *NEVER* understood why Graham got off as light as he did considering the sheer number of his crimes.. and in point of fact I've been told in the past by fans of Nanoha that Graham was actually right and that is was actually more humane to plan the assassination and/or permanent sleep/banishment he had planned for a mere sick 9 year old girl and all the backstabbing he did to get that goal accomplished...

Right might have been a wrong word to use there, sorry... but I hope you understand what I meant.

Anyhow about Graham, I do not think he was right, and Chrono already told him so in series proper. But I can understand WHY he choose to act the way he did. It might have not been the best or most correct method to solve the whole problem of the Book of Darkness but I can SEE why he was so desperate to act as it did.

But I can't forgive it, and I think that no one really should.

No... that could lead to a division and stigma in the force... something along the lines of them being beneath a mage, and whom would define the exact dividing line? No... better all tech accessible by all whom is shown as responsible enough to handle it.

Mm... then how about a combines arms doctrine, having both mass weapons users and mages working together in the frontlines like in the Belkan times, that should work right?

The problem with having the tech accessible to high end mages is that probably at a certain point using magic ends up being more useful than a mass weapon system because magic has a certain utility and diverse effects that mass weapons can't reproduce as easily. I mean why use an assault rifle when you can Stinger Ray something from way farther and being able to control the projectile.

I hope you get what I mean.

Get rid of favoritism in the upper ranks. A internal judicial system should be able to set out proper punishments for the crime committed by members no matter any time in or influence they may have.

I submit punishments submitted to non-members is not valid...

Punishment for non-members... I guess you mean Fate right? But, wasn't she a member, as Precia was a Mid citizen and she is her daughter. (Depending on the law, the progeny of a citizen is also a citizen of that country, Haiti from memory is like that)

Favoritism in the upper ranks, I think it is in part politics and other stuff. But well I can see why the Navy gets the better mages than the other forces, they are the arm of the TSAB, and the ones who enforce their policy in the Dimensional Sea. (Surprisingly that sort of corruption is so common where I live that I do not find it so weird.. the joys of living in a third world country).

Off top of head...

- Fate should have been let off. Her crimes should have been tacked to her mothers... as it is clear she was physically and mentally coerced into them... In no way should she have stayed on that ship for the time she did...

I thought she was in the ship because her punishment was community service, she got assigned to the Artha because she requested it, and she had to take a special license to become a civilian contractor.

- Get rid of conscription or even voluntary joining of minors. In fact, install a mandatory minimum age at least in the mid teens... power levels or not. Ensures no potential for indoctrination cases...

I agree with you, but I can understand why. Remember that Mid is influenced by the Belkan Wars. Erio comments that at his age in Strikers (10ish right?) a boy was considered an adult ready to be sent to the battle field. I guess that recruitment ages were lowered so the Belkans could recruit more knights to fight in wars. In the end, TSAB follows similar attitudes to children because of that influence. Remember that a nine year olds with magic can destroy cities with a pinky, it is something to consider.

Plus they are severely understaffed, so if they can use children like Nanoha or Fate in some safe missions (remember that the Original and As are special cases), they can free up resources to send adults to more dangerous missions.

- Ghraham should have been flambe'd. Off top of head he is guilty of : manipulation of events surrounding a 9 year old, planning permanent assassination/sleep of said 9 year old, hiding the location of book from the bureau for years, conspiring and planning in acts of sabotage against the bureau for his own means, hiding the location of the knights whom were attacking bureau personnel,
allowing terrorist acts against the bureau by the Knights, arranging for and attacking and hospitalizing bureau personnel... using bureau resources and information to allow black ops operations against bureau sanctioned operatives on sanctioned missions. Instead... he got retired to a cottage in the mountains on earth with his two assistants and co conspirators.

I agree, but he got away because politics, just as politicians get away with horrible stuff just by resigning. I wish that at least they would have sentenced in a full military hearing but well.. being an Admiral has clout I guess.

- Install a full out mentoring and training program instead, with severe background checks on anyone applying for admission into it as a mentor...

I guess you mean having mentors teach kids magic at a personal basis right. I guess it is hard to do as TSAB is lacking in instructors to teach magic to others (that is why Nanoha became an Airforce Instructor and the Wolks teach kids magic in a dojo in VIVID).

But by VIVID it seams like the situation has changed somewhat, the TSAB organizes magic tournaments to train kids (like Vivio) in safe environments, so I guess that is some progress.

- Not nearly leave a device with a unsanctioned girl for x amount of time and hope for the best. Sure... it worked, there was absolutely no guarantee it would.

- Harsh penalties for influencing/manipulating or mistreatment or misuse of minors with magical potential.

I think you mean Nanoha, well I am sure that the TSAB was checking on Nanoha from time to time, but I can see why I would worry about letting a kid having that sort of firepower. Maybe its a cultural diference due to the Belkans, so they see Nanoha having access to RH as normal?

Yes... at least to government heads... as it is I cannot condone TSAB actions in especially first season of not informing earth and just muscling in... And let us not kid ourselves... they were there for the danger the lost logia presented to them, not for the danger it was to anyone in general. It makes them no better than vigilantes.

EDIT: This last is one of the reasons I nearly always equate the TSAB to Stargate SG1... they are *not* good guys, but they are better than the bad guys. This is neither a good or bad thing, it just is... and thinking of them as 'good' is just whitewashing the situation.

Mmm I think it might have been something they should have done, give partial disclosure to at least the Japanesse government, but I guess it would have been more hassle than it would have been worth it. The aid the Earth could have given them was very minimal, so I can see why they just thought to just go in and solve the problem, without disturbing the planet. (Does the TSAB has something against disturbing developing worlds like Star Trek, maybe they did it because they can't).

 

[PCHeintz72]

Mm... then how about a combines arms doctrine, having both mass weapons users and mages working together in the frontlines like in the Belkan times, that should work right?
The problem with having the tech accessible to high end mages is that probably at a certain point using magic ends up being more useful than a mass weapon system because magic has a certain utility and diverse effects that mass weapons can't reproduce as easily. I mean why use an assault rifle when you can Stinger Ray something from way farther and being able to control the projectile.

I hope you get what I mean.

There is the benefits of both double training agents on both tech and magic, *and* slowly weaning them off the fear or at least dislike they have of mass tech, showing them it is a tool... nothing more. It also allows them to know what to do in the case of anti-magic fields...

Punishment for non-members... I guess you mean Fate right? But, wasn't she a member, as Precia was a Mid citizen and she is her daughter. (Depending on the law, the progeny of a citizen is also a citizen of that country, Haiti from memory is like that)

Precia was off the radar for unknown years, time enough to not only make fate, but have her raised and privately tutored. She was never registered, the TSAB did not know of her, and she never grew up in their society...

Favoritism in the upper ranks, I think it is in part politics and other stuff. But well I can see why the Navy gets the better mages than the other forces, they are the arm of the TSAB, and the ones who enforce their policy in the Dimensional Sea. (Surprisingly that sort of corruption is so common where I live that I do not find it so weird.. the joys of living in a third world country).

The why of it is not as important as the fact it is occurring. It flys in the face of the good and kind and whitewashed 'better than Earth' attitude many fans have.

I agree with you, but I can understand why. Remember that Mid is influenced by the Belkan Wars. Erio comments that at his age in Strikers (10ish right?) a boy was considered an adult ready to be sent to the battle field. I guess that recruitment ages were lowered so the Belkans could recruit more knights to fight in wars. In the end, TSAB follows similar attitudes to children because of that influence. Remember that a nine year olds with magic can destroy cities with a pinky, it is something to consider.

Ahhh... this creates a inconsistency... if the fact mages that are so powerful are so rare as others in this thread have been utterly insisting is the case, such an attitude does not hold water.

I can see perhaps teenage years being considered adult... not children say around 9.

And it is not like there are not other solutions... If the TSAB, for whatever reasons wish to be assigned to them, can force members to hold to limiters placed on their abilities, a far more logical use is to have thes placed on kids showing such over normal talents... not to limit them per se, but to protect society and ensure they can grow into and control their powers.

I was never against such limiters on the relatively inexperienced members of Division 6 under Nanoha and Fate, my issue was in issuing them to well trained and top tier agents...

Plus they are severely understaffed, so if they can use children like Nanoha or Fate in some safe missions (remember that the Original and As are special cases), they can free up resources to send adults to more dangerous missions.

Sorry, understaffed or not, I cannot see sending children the ages of say those two under Fate on any mission what so ever...

I guess you mean having mentors teach kids magic at a personal basis right. I guess it is hard to do as TSAB is lacking in instructors to teach magic to others (that is why Nanoha became an Airforce Instructor and the Wolks teach kids magic in a dojo in VIVID).

Not specifically that approach, others would work... perhaps at least for those needed, a advanced academy, not as a pilot to TSAB indoctrination, but as a general training school for teaching safe constructive use of powers... something like a more even handed version of what Xavier ran in XMen...

I think you mean Nanoha, well I am sure that the TSAB was checking on Nanoha from time to time, but I can see why I would worry about letting a kid having that sort of firepower. Maybe its a cultural difference due to the Belkans, so they see Nanoha having access to RH as normal?

No... I meant the two under Fate, or what was done to Vivio... I never though Nanoha was abused... though I do not think she should have been allowed to see Lindy without her parents present...

(Does the TSAB has something against disturbing developing worlds like Star Trek, maybe they did it because they can't).

If they do... I cannot recall ever coming across it, and I cannot recall anyone making that particular argument against me. And even then in Star Trek such things are treated as very serious breaches and failures on their part. And no... Star Treks non-interference directive is hardly a perfect answer either, and comes with its own issues.

Stargate operates similarly... They are for right or wrong not really out there to do good, but to protect their interests, meaning their Earth. Before anyone desides to argue that point, remember that the SGC was fully willing in the movie to send a nuke through, and detonate it even with the potential that people on the other side would die. There are plenty of other instances in the series where the priority is Earth, not the groups on the other side of the gate. That is not wrong, but it makes them out for their interests above any common good. It is an important point *not* because we are any better as we are certainly not, but because the TSAB is not the general universal guys in white many make them out to be...

 

[Azure]

There is the benefits of both double training agents on both tech and magic, *and* slowly weaning them off the fear or at least dislike they have of mass tech, showing them it is a tool... nothing more. It also allows them to know what to do in the case of anti-magic fields...

That is happening in Force, Section 6 is testing the new mass weapons that will be mass produced to deal with AMF situations and stuff.

But I do like the idea of integrating and combining the training, might use it in the future for something.

Precia was off the radar for unknown years, time enough to not only make fate, but have her raised and privately tutored. She was never registered, the TSAB did not know of her, and she never grew up in their society...

About the Precia thing, does it matter? Some constitution extend citizenship to all progeny of a citizen. So Fate was under TSAB jurisdiction because she was Precia's daughter (at least that is one way to see it). Plus Fate was taking something that belonged to them (the Jewel Seeds) so I can see why they prosecuted her.

The why of it is not as important as the fact it is occurring. It flys in the face of the good and kind and whitewashed 'better than Earth' attitude many fans have.

Corruption happens everywhere, so I do not find it strange that it happens in TSAB, I do believe it needs to be fought but I do not really find it that strange(... the benefits of living in a third world country).

I would say that morally TSAB is probably no worse than any country on Earth, it does its bad things but I tend to view them as necessary things.

Ahhh... this creates a inconsistency... if the fact mages that are so powerful are so rare as others in this thread have been utterly insisting is the case, such an attitude does not hold water.

I can see perhaps teenage years being considered adult... not children say around 9.

And it is not like there are not other solutions... If the TSAB, for whatever reasons wish to be assigned to them, can force members to hold to limiters placed on their abilities, a far more logical use is to have thes placed on kids showing such over normal talents... not to limit them per se, but to protect society and ensure they can grow into and control their powers.

I was never against such limiters on the relatively inexperienced members of Division 6 under Nanoha and Fate, my issue was in issuing them to well trained and top tier agents...

Rare is relative, remember that TSAB deals with hundreds of planets under its jurisdiction and umbrella, that means even if an A rank mage is something that happens one in every 100,000 people, if we search 20 planets with pops of say 6 billion, I am sure we can get a decent number of mages. The thing is that with the space the TSAB polices it is not enough, that number of A rankers are used to protect those 20 planets and the systems around them and then they need to send some of them to planets that lack mages or places that do not have any humans, etc.

Sorry, understaffed or not, I cannot see sending children the ages of say those two under Fate on any mission what so ever...

The TSAB does not really like it that much either, Lindy said she felt bad about having to recruit Nanoha and Fate in the sound dramas. And in the As sound drama Chrono comented that he disliked the idea of his little sister and her friends joining the Law enforcement in TSAB because it would expose them to things they are not ready for.

I think that some things are context. I mean look at it from their perspective. The Belkans nuked themselves to death, with magic and mass weapons, and the Mid (plus the other original members of the TSAB) were the survivors. They basically had to pick up the pieces of what was left.

They had to send aid to other planets, try to control the leftover WMDs and Lost Logias before some idiot poked them and destroyed some planets, and they inherited all the space that the former Belkans controlled (which is probably larger than they can handle). So I can understand how strained they should be to really consider using kids in missions.

By Vivid things probably changed enough that the TSAB can now run magic tournaments and does not feel pressured to recruit kids to do missions.

To be honest (as I see it), Fate was never meant to really see combat, her community service in the Artha was meant for her to help patrol and be taught/evaluated by Chrono. At most she probably would have helped seal some random Lost Logia or helped in a natural disaster while visiting Nanoha and living on Earth with Lindy. Nobody expected the Wolks to happen, and by then they did not have much choice but to fight.

(A theory to consider was that Lindy's call for more men from the TSAB were rejected by Graham, so they would not interfere in his plans. Thus Lindy was forced to use the girls to fight the Wolks.)

Not specifically that approach, others would work... perhaps at least for those needed, a advanced academy, not as a pilot to TSAB indoctrination, but as a general training school for teaching safe constructive use of powers... something like a more even handed version of what Xavier ran in XMen...

I think schools in mid teach magic theory. Also wouldn't a TSAB run magical academy also "influence" kids to do stuff, I mean they would teach them certain values and make them pro-TSAB, if you fear that.

If they do... I cannot recall ever coming across it, and I cannot recall anyone making that particular argument against me. And even then in Star Trek such things are treated as very serious breaches and failures on their part. And no... Star Treks non-interference directive is hardly a perfect answer either, and comes with its own issues.

Stargate operates similarly... They are for right or wrong not really out there to do good, but to protect their interests, meaning their Earth. Before anyone desides to argue that point, remember that the SGC was fully willing in the movie to send a nuke through, and detonate it even with the potential that people on the other side would die. There are plenty of other instances in the series where the priority is Earth, not the groups on the other side of the gate. That is not wrong, but it makes them out for their interests above any common good. It is an important point *not* because we are any better as we are certainly not, but because the TSAB is not the general universal guys in white many make them out to be...

TSAB is not run by saints, I do agree with that. But I view them as sort of benign organization, one that tries to keep peace while maintaining their interests. I do think that it does more good than not.

I do think that if it ever came to a First Contact scenario, the TSAB would be one of those organizations that would treat the Earth in a "fair" sense and not screw it totally while protecting their interests. I mean imagine what would happen if a First Contact happened during the Belkan Wars, the Earth would probably end up a vassal state no question in the best of cases. In the worst, it ends up a wasteland because some genius released Eclipse to see if Earthlings would make some good Drivers.



About the Limiters, actually I really think that you might not be getting why they were placed on the three Aces. It was not a case of having Hayate be unable to say fight against an evil plot by the TSAB (I mean the release codes where in possession of allies of her: Chrono and Carim). It was for the sake for the TSAB being able to stop Hayate if she went rogue, or evil.

I mean, Section 6 has more firepower than several other units of the TSAB together, so if she decided to go rogue they would not be able to stop her without heavy losses. Remember that part of the TSAB distrust Hayate, so they probably considered such a scenario when they imposed the limiters on Hayate. I can't say I really blame them too much.

 

[ragnarok1337]

Yeah, you're entitled to it. Doesn't mean that it isn't flat-out wrong. The more you try and defend your views the more deranged you sound.

Different sure, I fail to see how an opinion is flat out wrong... I merely walked away from that series with a far different opinion than you guys apparently did.

With that logic, no one can ever be wrong about anything.

Christ are you even listening to yourself?

 

[Hoki]

The TSAB isn't perfect. No governing body is. Everybody tends to do things to fulfill their self interests. Some people just think that their self-interests are the same as whatever beliefs they think are correct. Take a look at Gil Graham and Regius Gaiz, they have noble goals: Graham wanted to protect the dimensions from the threat of the Book of Darkness, Regius wanted to strengthen the ground forces without relying on powerful mages to protect Mid-Childa. It's just that they utilized improper means of accomplishing their goal. Graham even acknowledges the hypocrisy of his actions. Regius, on the other hand, believes in his cause so strongly he had his friend's unit (and eventually his friend) killed, just to let the project he's supporting continue unhindered.

However, the imperfections of the TSAB doesn't mean that it's automatically worse than any other governing body here on Earth. Also keep in mind that the TSAB is by essence, a young organization. It hasn't even existed for a hundred years, evidenced by the fact that their founding members are all still alive, so there are still a lot of work to be done, cleaning up the messes that the Ancient Belkans left, while keeping stride with the new threats that may appear on any part of their jurisdiction.

 

[Rising Dragon]

In Regius's defense, he did tell Zest's unit NOT to go on that mission and they did anyway.

Otherwise, it's as they say: the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[Akiyoshi]

Yeah, you're entitled to it. Doesn't mean that it isn't flat-out wrong. The more you try and defend your views the more deranged you sound.

Different sure, I fail to see how an opinion is flat out wrong... I merely walked away from that series with a far different opinion than you guys apparently did.

With that logic, no one can ever be wrong about anything.

Christ are you even listening to yourself?

Not entirely following the discussion here aside from some details but i agree with PCHeintz72's sentiment. Just because a large amount of people agree on something that doesn't turn instantly into the truth.

Even then, it's not that hard because this is fiction, if something is specifically confirmed/denied by canon in a clear way (like a flat-out statement for example) then that becomes the truth. Sadly, Tsuzuki likes to leave ambiguous almost freaking everything about his stories xDU

As long as it is based on speculation any argument is debatible no matter how many people agrees with it.