Akiyoshi said:
Just the last statement is a bit vague, Belka used lots of mass-bassed tech indeed but therewere also lots of hybrd trch combining both aspects. The Cradle even in spite of AMF seems to be mana powered and also can empower the Sankt Kaiser's mana to absurd levels. Scaglietti's plan included reaching the moons of Mid-Childa to have an infinite supply of mana to use the Cradle's power to the fullest and held entire planets hostage.
It was one of the reasons why Belka was so feared, they had mastery over both technology AND magic and the means to use both to devastating effect. I wondered if the original Eclipse virus and the Bible of The Silver Cross were created as a countermeasure precisely to counter the lots of magical brokeness spread among belkan rulers.
And if you pay attention to Fate's monologue, and Erio and Caro's comments on it, you would have learned that it was the fearsome mass-based weapons which caused the worst and largest destruction. Stuff like the Cradle is impressive, but it was only one ship, and required a particular person to operate it. The nukes (and things like it), could be operated by any child (Erio's words).
PCHeintz72 said:
You and everyone else seem to be missing the concept that a normal object is always present, and as such a designation can be made of it, as it has existence of its own once made not really tied to anything else, even the maker. A pillow sitting on a bed is still there, it is not tied to my existence until someone picks it up...
Mana is always present, too. Not sure what your point is. Magic is a tool, much like anything else, including that pillow.
I have repeatedly stated, I was never discussing that... they can do what they want as I certainly have no control over either Nanoha canon material, or its interpretation by fans...
What is your point, then? Seriously. It seems to be that "magic isn't safe!" and that's it. Which has nothing to do with why the Bureau went the Belkan route. It's as if you don't really understand why the Bureau did, or that you feel the Bureau did wrong in going the magic route. AS if you don't quite know what the Belkan wars were like, and the differences between magic and normal tools, to understand why magic is simply better and more effective.
Since you asked though... realistically, they should have adopted both (magic and tech)... rejecting something in whole merely because of bad past with it is not rational or practical... They open themselves up to a whole slew of potential issues by relying too much on one and banning portions of the other. I take a far more practical approach, use what works...
This is where you don't quite understand the material; the Bureau DOES use a lot of normal tech. Vehicles, for one. They have tanks. They have guns (Runessa had a handgun). They are just under very strict control, and the Bureau tends to rely on magic mostly to handle things. Given the 150 years of peace, it has worked quite well. At least, compared to the 300+ years of horrible war in which normal tech destroyed planets and kills billions of people.
In that situation, if you can put yourself in their shoes, then, perhaps you can understand why they went with magic?
If a person wants to join TSAB and fight, but have little in way of magic, give them the tech, sniper guns, cannons, dart guns, cuffs, battle armor instead of barrier jacket, any other tech needed to get the job done etc....
Her name is Runessa. She's representative of what you might be thinking about. I suggest you read through Sound Stage X, and then you may have a better angle on the whole tech thing. She had a real gun (a device that shoots bullets), and a license to use it.
And battle armor may as well be tissue paper, for all the good it would defend against magic. Understand that you are saying: "Hey, let's toss this guy into the fight between the US and Iraqi tanks, and arm him with a stick! In fact, the US army should use more sticks, because guns aren't safe!"
Reading Sound Stage X, you'll also see how Erio shrugged off a rail gun shot with his barrier jacket alone, and how Subaru took High Explosive Anti-Tank round at near point blank range, and only had some of her barrier jacket shredded, but was otherwise unharmed.
Rock beats scissors, every single time. Magic beats tech, every single time. The only time tech ever got close, was Jail's drones, and they had to to use an AMF
and extreme numbers to pose any kind of challenge. With training, the normal magic-using grunts could hold their own against vastly superior numbers. It took 3 cyborgs to even threaten Teana, a B-ranked mage, and she still took them out. The most advanced tech in the Nanohaverse, still pales in comparison to magic.
So, answer me honestly: Do you really think it is a wise idea to bring a stick to a gun fight?
if a person on Midchildean wants to defend their home and has little magic... allow for fences, pets, guns, perhaps limited like in the U.S., but whatever, perhaps a air filtration or detection / counter system for sleep spells, maybe electrified windows and doors, etc...
What makes you think they don't? Remember, Mid-Childa is an independent planet. The Bureau just has it's ground forces branch there. The Bureau is essentially a police force; they don't rule anyone. And so far, the planets in Bureau space seem to be content with how the Bureau has done things, and how they have kept the peace.
It also assumes the people being shot at have the magic to defend themselves with. And a society magical based seems like it makes it less likely for a person with minimal magic to defend themselves. After all, as has been repeatedly implied in this thread, not everyone in Midchildean society is a power horse like Nanoha or Fate.
You're all over the place with this comment, so much so that I'm not sure what you're saying. If a group of people have guns, it is a fairly safe bet they don't have much magic. Only a small percentage of the population has magical potential, so the odds are already good they are normal. And a magic shot that they don't see coming, means they can't defend against it.
And both the Nanohaverse and our reality have a relatively small group of people that engage in killing, sometimes slaughtering large groups of people (like towns).
You are talking about the wrong one about that, because I am generally accused of looking at the Nanoha series with too dark a view.
Nanoha Force. Whole villages and groups of people are slaughtered, several times.
It may be depressing to consider, but you must take into account that Nanoha universe is still run by humans... they may come from a magical society... that does *not* make it perfect. It is human nature for some to be greedy, or want what they cannot or should not, or take liberties they should not.
We have no shortage of examples from in series to those whom have become corrupt even in the government, so imagine outside of it.
I imagine whole new ways to mug, rape, assault, steal, and make war, give torture, blackmail, coerce, and so on all exist. I can easily see magic being used for such. Consider the possibility of someone magically restraining someone, abducting or teleporting them, having their way with them (not nessecarily rape, maybe extract passwords, codes, corporate espianige), then erasing memories and placing back on the street.
And Remember, we may have a generally officially accepted Geneva convention on prisoner treatment on this planet, that does not state they do...
That's great that you have an active imagination. Now show me where this is taking place in the Nanohaverse. No one said their universe is perfect, but it damn well is better than the tech ruled Belkan era, and a damn sight better than our own planet. If you're trying to say they are worse then us, you still have a lot of work to do.
Again, you may want to take a look at SSX, to learn about a civil war taking place on the planet of Orussia, where all that death and rape is going on. Take a look at Force, where corporate shenanigans are happening. Take a look at StrikerS, where seedy elements in the Bureau are happening.
Oh wait... all that bad stuff has to do with normal tech, and magic has to come along to wipe tech's sorry butt and protect the populace. Again. If you wanna argue against magic, you might want to pick a different fandom. This one has a habit of showing just how good and useful magic is, and how it can be harnessed to provide a better society then we can get with tech alone.
Ahhh... but right or wrong, at least in the U.S., even with restrictions, you have that choice to make... this removes that choice. Which I do not feel is remotely fair to the lower half of society... but All but guarantees that the government cannot be taken out by a revolution.
How do you know the people of Mid-Childa can't own guns, for that matter? With the proper license, they can. The Bureau only controls mass-based weapons within itself, and on the worlds that have granted authority to the Bureau for that matter. And again, the Bureau doesn't even really rule. They merely help keep the peace and regulate lost logia.
I have to chuckle at the idea that guns in the hands of citizens are what keeps a government in check. It's a ridiculous argument in the US, and even more insane on Mid-Childa. A million people with rifles can do exactly jack and squat against a squad of mages.... or against a fleet of US drones.
No, sorry to burst your bubble, but neither the US nor MId-Childa's governments can be taken out by a revolution of people with guns. Any revolution will be fought solely on the basis of how much the military sides with the populace. Everything else is wishful thinking.
Shields can be pierced or overwhelmed or otherwise gotten around like with teleportation. A mix of strategic magic and conventional tactics and weaponry could devastate large swaths of area... take for example a sleep spell being used in some of the control centers and then them being bombed...
Incorrect. We saw this in A's. Barriers can jam teleportation, preventing people from teleporting in or out. You may wish to brush up on your source material. Much of what you have said thus far has been directly or indirectly countered by source material.
Bah... you would have to catch them doing it... with their ability to jump dimensions... unless it was witnessed, or it left some form of trace, how would you know. The threat of MAD only goes so far... I doubt there are many forces out there that could touch the TSAB.
The Huckbein and the Eclipse-infected say "hi!"
And it's called "communications" of which there are several ways. Also, when people investigate a planet that is no longer there, or is in pieces, the truth would eventually be found. As Sherlock Holmes once said, "There is no perfect crime; there are only imperfect investigations."
Ahhh... you are not looking at the concept war is about resources... the funding that would be lost would be at least in part made up for by conquering territories, better if you owed that territory money, as you would not need to pay it back.
In fact, in a interstellar magical environment, funding takes a whole new meaning when you can get funding and raw materials from asteroids and uninhabited planets.
Say hello to the Belkan wars. Which are something the Bureau was specifically founded to prevent ever happening again. The people who join, do so with the ideal of preventing that. In short, your wet dream of the Bureau doing such nasty stuff is exactly that: a dream.
Look, even if we buy your argument of "magic not safe!" ...where does that leave us? Magic is still the best thing around, and still leagues safer than any tech. And you still haven't offered any ideas that aren't already in play in the Nanohaverse. So, even if we buy your argument, it still gets us nowhere.
