The White Devil of the Moon Chapter 12

Comartemis

Well-Known Member
....I don't know about Comartemis but I probably wouldn't have minded if bissek had tried to make the entire thing of a parody of all the bad Sailor Moon crossovers or even a crackfic.
For the record, I do share this sentiment. Beautiful Destroyer Sailor Moon has the Senshi so massively OOC that it almost hurts to look at but it's still fucking hilarious specifically because Ero-Sennin isn't taking himself, the story, or the characters very seriously at all.
 
Im sorry for the grammer and spelling- this is off an I-Phone.

Ok, i totally see where everybody is coming from. Is there a reason we must argue points we are not going to agree on and everyones opinion has been adaquatly stated?

I for one do not think the most importent part of crossover fanfiction is keeping balance. I dont really care THAT much about staying in character. Ifthe story is entertaining to me i read it. Artemis, if you are going to contenue to post then how about we make something constructive out of it?

I dont think The basic idea of the fic is bad. (I dont think the fic itself is "bad" either but reading comartimis's rants makes me feel bad about humanity and im too much of a optimistic lover of both series to not try to stop the totally meaningless cyclical shouting.) basic plot: nanoha is the reincarnation of serenity, Luna finds her but she's recovering from her injeries. There must be miscommunication at first. How do you make it awesome?
 

Comartemis

Well-Known Member
condonzack said:
Im sorry for the grammer and spelling- this is off an I-Phone.

Ok, i totally see where everybody is coming from. Is there a reason we must argue points we are not going to agree on and everyones opinion has been adaquatly stated?

I for one do not think the most importent part of crossover fanfiction is keeping balance. I dont really care THAT much about staying in character. Ifthe story is entertaining to me i read it. Artemis, if you are going to contenue to post then how about we make something constructive out of it?
If you really mean that garbage about not caring whether characters are in character or not then frankly I pity you. But in any event, being constructive at this point is pointless since bissek has adequately proven that he won't listen to criticism he doesn't agree with, like the sort I've been giving since the first page. :sweat2:

I dont think The basic idea of the fic is bad. (I dont think the fic itself is "bad" either but reading comartimis's rants makes me feel bad about humanity and im too much of a optimistic lover of both series to not try to stop the totally meaningless cyclical shouting.) basic plot: nanoha is the reincarnation of serenity, Luna finds her but she's recovering from her injeries. There must be miscommunication at first. How do you make it awesome?
You start with ample amounts of bullshitting to explain the numerous plot holes AbyssalDaemon brought up. Without Sailor Moon in place right from the word go, lots and lots of people are going to die very very quickly, beginning with Naru and her mom and everybody who bought jewelery from that first youma. Without Sailor Moon to disrupt those plots as fast as Jadeite can put them up, they will continue to operate and claim more and more victims while the Senshi scramble around trying to find them and shut them down. And if Luna and whoever she enlists first aren't in exactly the right spot at exactly the right time, Ami Rei and probably Makoto will all fall victim to Dark Kingdom agents before they even have a chance to awaken. Ami will have no chance against the cursed cram school plot, Rei will probably get caught up in the disappearing bus business, and Makoto will probably pick a fight with Jadeite like she did with Zoicite and get drained as well for her efforts. None of them will be able to transform without Luna being present because she's the one who gives them their transformation pens.

But most of all, Tuxedo Mask will either never awaken or he will awaken much sooner than normal. You may recall that Mamoru only ever turned into Tuxedo Mask at first when he sensed that Usagi was in danger, whereupon he seemed to be able to teleport to her side in an instant. If that ability is dependent on distance, then Serenity's soul being in Uminari means he'll never sense that she's in danger while Nanoha is doing her thing in the first two seasons, and then subsequently won't awaken during the story until Nanoha's life is in danger, so you're talking about his first transformation happening during Jadeite's attack on the wedding. Since bissek hates the reincarnation romance business, this is the most likely outcome. If Tux can sense that Serenity is in danger then Mamoru should have started transforming when he was about 14 or so, in which case he would have come to Nanoha's rescue at several points in the first two seasons of MGLN.

Now, it is possible to bullshit your way though some of these things, but you can't just ignore it like bissek does because then you piss off anyone who knows anything about Sailor Moon. Let's say that instead of finding Usagi Luna found Mamoru first and awakened his memories instead. At this point we can do a bit of that "cherry-picking details from the manga" thing that bissek likes to do and say that Endymion is Serenity's equal in power, and thus Tuxedo Mask is a suitable stand-in for Sailor Moon as a front-line ass-kicker for the Senshi instead of being that guy who throws roses and gives encouraging speeches and not a whole lot else. For maximum awesome points, skip Tuxedo Mask entirely and have Mamoru transform straight into Endymion, badass armor and cape and longsword and all.

Tux's and Endymion's roses have a magical substance called 'Plot' in them which allows them to do just about anything. I've seen them break hypnosis spells, paralyze demons, disable death traps, cut magical ropes, banish attacks after they've been launched, sprout vines and entangle their target, and pierce lengthwise through a spear of stone several feet long and one-shot kill Beryl via piercing her through the heart in the same attack. They can do just about anything that the plot requires, so having them also be able to banish possession and cure energy draining attacks is just par for the course.

With this setup, we can explain most of AbyssalDaemon's points about "why the Senshi can't win without Sailor Moon", but not all of them. It's unlikely for Mamoru to stumble into the same situations that led Usagi to meet the other Senshi; for example he's unlikely to meet Ami before the cram school plot goes live because they aren't in the same school. However casualties can be prevented by having Jadeite's minions capture the drained Senshi and return them to the Dark Kingdom to be corrupted into new minions like the Generals.

In place of the Senshi who are lost to the Dark Kingdom, however, Mamoru and the remaining Senshi do have a lucky break when they make contact with Uranus and Neptune, who IIRC are active at this point but dealing with proto-daimons on their own time. Uranus and Neptune are more than powerful enough to make up for the lost Senshi and keep things balanced.

With the Outers in play and Mamoru continuing to foil the Dark Kingdom's attempts to gather energy, it is possible if also still very difficult to justify stalling the Dark Kingdom for a year. I say this mainly because the first season covered a period of approximately one year in broadcasting time and even with Sailor Moon that was enough time for Beryl to gather enough energy on her own to wake up Metallia. Yes, that's right. In order to stall the Dark Kingdom for a year and have them be stuck at the level of progress they're at in bissek's work, the Senshi have to be even better at foiling Dark Kingdom plots and denying them energy than they are with Sailor Moon. That's one problem that I don't see any ways around short of just flat-out ignoring the timeline.

...

...

Is that wall of text-y enough for you? Go get a drink or something, there's another one coming up.

...

...

So, by the time Nanoha and company come home to Earth, the remaining Senshi and Endymion should be a pack of hardcore badasses. The team I'm envisioning is Endymion, Venus, Jupiter, and Uranus/Neptune plus Luna and Artemis. Endymion, as we've said, is Sailor Moon's equal in magical power plus he has his do-anything roses and melee combat skills (canon Tuxedo Mask went cane-to-sword with Zoicite one-on-one later in the season, Endymion would be even better with all his past memories in place). Venus is the most experienced member of the group with a year of solo fighting under her belt plus the battles in Tokyo. She and Jupiter have both been training their magic with Uranus and Neptune where they can and have boosted their power to season 2 levels plus unlocked a few new spells apiece.

This team, all told, is more dangerous than the Forwards are when the whole group goes all-out, Voltaire notwithstanding unless Endymion has somehow picked up the Golden Crystal at some point. Something to keep in mind is that the TSAB's mage ranks aren't just a measure of power, but also of skill. The Senshi should have the power and skill of a team of AA or even AAA-ranked ground mages, AA being about where the Forwards were at the end of StrikerS.

Everything from here on is how I'd do the story, so forget whatever bissek did instead.

Now, at the point where the story starts Precia would have been sending out drones for a few weeks, long enough for the Senshi to know what they look like and how they fight. The cats in particular are sensitive to the kind of magic that Precia powers her drones with; in canon they get "bad vibes" when they're around sources of dark magic, so it's not much of a stretch for them to be able to sense that the magic powering Precia's drones is different from the usual stuff Dark Kingdom stuff. Since those drones are attacking them as well, that kind of magic goes under their "enemies" list after the first few times it shows up.

It is very important to note that the cats have been completely reliant on feeling bad vibes to sniff out Dark Kingdom activity because Mercury was captured by the Dark Kingdom and the Mercury Computer is unavailable without her. On the plus side, sensing bad vibes has a 100% success rate, if also a rather tight detection range. Luna and Artemis following their noses has never lead the Senshi wrong in the past year, so when Luna gets a whiff of Fate and detects the same kind of magic as what's powering Precia's drones she leaps to the very logical conclusion that Fate is connected to them somehow. When she detects that same scent mixed in with Nanoha's own magic, that's when the alarm bells start going off.

Fate might or might not be related to the Dark Kingdom. She might or might not be corrupting the Princess the way the other Senshi have been corrupted by the DK. The Senshi know this and they know they don't have rock-solid proof that Fate is an enemy. However they also know that they're losing in spite of everything they've done, and now the one chance they have of turning the tables might be in jeopardy. Even if they aren't totally sure that Fate is evil, they can't afford to take the chance that she is, because if they're wrong and the Dark Kingdom corrupts Nanoha then they may as well give up right then and there.

That's how I'd fix the basic premise. I'd have to go back and re-read the fic again to think of point-by-point corrections, but the gist of it is that this way uses most of the things that bissek doesn't care about like power level rebalancing for an even crossover and characters acting the way they're supposed to instead of being complete morons.
 

The Ero-Sennin

The Eyes of Heaven
Staff member
bissek said:
That gets filed under DLDR - Don't Like, Don't Read.
Bissek, I'm going to have to stop you right there.

While subjective viewpoints should be respected. You, nor any author, should NEVER respond to criticism with "If you don't like it, don't read it." It is the most immature, degrading, and outright ignorant thing you can say to another reader who points out a valid inconsistency and lack of attention to detail in your stories.

I've never read The White Devil of the Moon. Hell, I've never watched Nanoha. But I am a writer, and from a writer who has been torn a new asshole on many occasions by critics. I not only do not tell them "DLDR", I tell them to keep reading. I dare them to, so I can swing back around and make them see the error of their ways with my writing. If they don't like it, then they'll drop it on their own, they don't need to be told.

If you tell them "Don't Like, Don't Read" you're just saying you cannot take the fact that people who read your work do not like it.
 

staplesdex2

Well-Known Member
Comartemis said:
condonzack said:
Im sorry for the grammer and spelling- this is off an I-Phone.

Ok, i totally see where everybody is coming from. Is there a reason we must argue points we are not going to agree on and everyones opinion has been adaquatly stated?

I for one do not think the most importent part of crossover fanfiction is keeping balance. I dont really care THAT much about staying in character. Ifthe story is entertaining to me i read it. Artemis, if you are going to contenue to post then how about we make something constructive out of it?
If you really mean that garbage about not caring whether characters are in character or not then frankly I pity you. But in any event, being constructive at this point is pointless since bissek has adequately proven that he won't listen to criticism he doesn't agree with, like the sort I've been giving since the first page. :sweat2:

I dont think The basic idea of the fic is bad. (I dont think the fic itself is "bad" either but reading comartimis's rants makes me feel bad about humanity and im too much of a optimistic lover of both series to not try to stop the totally meaningless cyclical shouting.) basic plot: nanoha is the reincarnation of serenity, Luna finds her but she's recovering from her injeries. There must be miscommunication at first. How do you make it awesome?
You start with ample amounts of bullshitting to explain the numerous plot holes AbyssalDaemon brought up. Without Sailor Moon in place right from the word go, lots and lots of people are going to die very very quickly, beginning with Naru and her mom and everybody who bought jewelery from that first youma. Without Sailor Moon to disrupt those plots as fast as Jadeite can put them up, they will continue to operate and claim more and more victims while the Senshi scramble around trying to find them and shut them down. And if Luna and whoever she enlists first aren't in exactly the right spot at exactly the right time, Ami Rei and probably Makoto will all fall victim to Dark Kingdom agents before they even have a chance to awaken. Ami will have no chance against the cursed cram school plot, Rei will probably get caught up in the disappearing bus business, and Makoto will probably pick a fight with Jadeite like she did with Zoicite and get drained as well for her efforts. None of them will be able to transform without Luna being present because she's the one who gives them their transformation pens.

But most of all, Tuxedo Mask will either never awaken or he will awaken much sooner than normal. You may recall that Mamoru only ever turned into Tuxedo Mask at first when he sensed that Usagi was in danger, whereupon he seemed to be able to teleport to her side in an instant. If that ability is dependent on distance, then Serenity's soul being in Uminari means he'll never sense that she's in danger while Nanoha is doing her thing in the first two seasons, and then subsequently won't awaken during the story until Nanoha's life is in danger, so you're talking about his first transformation happening during Jadeite's attack on the wedding. Since bissek hates the reincarnation romance business, this is the most likely outcome. If Tux can sense that Serenity is in danger then Mamoru should have started transforming when he was about 14 or so, in which case he would have come to Nanoha's rescue at several points in the first two seasons of MGLN.

Now, it is possible to bullshit your way though some of these things, but you can't just ignore it like bissek does because then you piss off anyone who knows anything about Sailor Moon. Let's say that instead of finding Usagi Luna found Mamoru first and awakened his memories instead. At this point we can do a bit of that "cherry-picking details from the manga" thing that bissek likes to do and say that Endymion is Serenity's equal in power, and thus Tuxedo Mask is a suitable stand-in for Sailor Moon as a front-line ass-kicker for the Senshi instead of being that guy who throws roses and gives encouraging speeches and not a whole lot else. For maximum awesome points, skip Tuxedo Mask entirely and have Mamoru transform straight into Endymion, badass armor and cape and longsword and all.

Tux's and Endymion's roses have a magical substance called 'Plot' in them which allows them to do just about anything. I've seen them break hypnosis spells, paralyze demons, disable death traps, cut magical ropes, banish attacks after they've been launched, sprout vines and entangle their target, and pierce lengthwise through a spear of stone several feet long and one-shot kill Beryl via piercing her through the heart in the same attack. They can do just about anything that the plot requires, so having them also be able to banish possession and cure energy draining attacks is just par for the course.

With this setup, we can explain most of AbyssalDaemon's points about "why the Senshi can't win without Sailor Moon", but not all of them. It's unlikely for Mamoru to stumble into the same situations that led Usagi to meet the other Senshi; for example he's unlikely to meet Ami before the cram school plot goes live because they aren't in the same school. However casualties can be prevented by having Jadeite's minions capture the drained Senshi and return them to the Dark Kingdom to be corrupted into new minions like the Generals.

In place of the Senshi who are lost to the Dark Kingdom, however, Mamoru and the remaining Senshi do have a lucky break when they make contact with Uranus and Neptune, who IIRC are active at this point but dealing with proto-daimons on their own time. Uranus and Neptune are more than powerful enough to make up for the lost Senshi and keep things balanced.

With the Outers in play and Mamoru continuing to foil the Dark Kingdom's attempts to gather energy, it is possible if also still very difficult to justify stalling the Dark Kingdom for a year. I say this mainly because the first season covered a period of approximately one year in broadcasting time and even with Sailor Moon that was enough time for Beryl to gather enough energy on her own to wake up Metallia. Yes, that's right. In order to stall the Dark Kingdom for a year and have them be stuck at the level of progress they're at in bissek's work, the Senshi have to be even better at foiling Dark Kingdom plots and denying them energy than they are with Sailor Moon. That's one problem that I don't see any ways around short of just flat-out ignoring the timeline.

...

...

Is that wall of text-y enough for you? Go get a drink or something, there's another one coming up.

...

...

So, by the time Nanoha and company come home to Earth, the remaining Senshi and Endymion should be a pack of hardcore badasses. The team I'm envisioning is Endymion, Venus, Jupiter, and Uranus/Neptune plus Luna and Artemis. Endymion, as we've said, is Sailor Moon's equal in magical power plus he has his do-anything roses and melee combat skills (canon Tuxedo Mask went cane-to-sword with Zoicite one-on-one later in the season, Endymion would be even better with all his past memories in place). Venus is the most experienced member of the group with a year of solo fighting under her belt plus the battles in Tokyo. She and Jupiter have both been training their magic with Uranus and Neptune where they can and have boosted their power to season 2 levels plus unlocked a few new spells apiece.

This team, all told, is more dangerous than the Forwards are when the whole group goes all-out, Voltaire notwithstanding unless Endymion has somehow picked up the Golden Crystal at some point. Something to keep in mind is that the TSAB's mage ranks aren't just a measure of power, but also of skill. The Senshi should have the power and skill of a team of AA or even AAA-ranked ground mages, AA being about where the Forwards were at the end of StrikerS.

Everything from here on is how I'd do the story, so forget whatever bissek did instead.

Now, at the point where the story starts Precia would have been sending out drones for a few weeks, long enough for the Senshi to know what they look like and how they fight. The cats in particular are sensitive to the kind of magic that Precia powers her drones with; in canon they get "bad vibes" when they're around sources of dark magic, so it's not much of a stretch for them to be able to sense that the magic powering Precia's drones is different from the usual stuff Dark Kingdom stuff. Since those drones are attacking them as well, that kind of magic goes under their "enemies" list after the first few times it shows up.

It is very important to note that the cats have been completely reliant on feeling bad vibes to sniff out Dark Kingdom activity because Mercury was captured by the Dark Kingdom and the Mercury Computer is unavailable without her. On the plus side, sensing bad vibes has a 100% success rate, if also a rather tight detection range. Luna and Artemis following their noses has never lead the Senshi wrong in the past year, so when Luna gets a whiff of Fate and detects the same kind of magic as what's powering Precia's drones she leaps to the very logical conclusion that Fate is connected to them somehow. When she detects that same scent mixed in with Nanoha's own magic, that's when the alarm bells start going off.

Fate might or might not be related to the Dark Kingdom. She might or might not be corrupting the Princess the way the other Senshi have been corrupted by the DK. The Senshi know this and they know they don't have rock-solid proof that Fate is an enemy. However they also know that they're losing in spite of everything they've done, and now the one chance they have of turning the tables might be in jeopardy. Even if they aren't totally sure that Fate is evil, they can't afford to take the chance that she is, because if they're wrong and the Dark Kingdom corrupts Nanoha then they may as well give up right then and there.

That's how I'd fix the basic premise. I'd have to go back and re-read the fic again to think of point-by-point corrections, but the gist of it is that this way uses most of the things that bissek doesn't care about like power level rebalancing for an even crossover and characters acting the way they're supposed to instead of being complete morons.
At this point Comartemis I have got to ask, you state that this is what you would've done to the story but the thing is are you the one writing the story or is it the author? Criticism is fine but this still looks like you're ranting but you're not (I think). Right now I'm still waiting for the story to be written and finished before I judge it.
 

Comartemis

Well-Known Member
staplesdex2 said:
At this point Comartemis I have got to ask, you state that this is what you would've done to the story but the thing is are you the one writing the story or is it the author?
Bissek is writing the story. I am replying to condonzack's question as to how I'd improve on what bissek is doing were I the author. And if you'd been paying attention you would know that already and wouldn't have needed to ask.

Criticism is fine but this still looks like you're ranting but you're not (I think).? Right now I'm still waiting for the story to be written and finished before I judge it.
It's still criticism. Criticism mixed with snipes at the author's methodology perhaps, but I haven't yet hit the point where I'm making personal insults.
 

staplesdex2

Well-Known Member
Comartemis said:
staplesdex2 said:
At this point Comartemis I have got to ask, you state that this is what you would've done to the story but the thing is are you the one writing the story or is it the author?
Bissek is writing the story. I am replying to condonzack's question as to how I'd improve on what bissek is doing were I the author. And if you'd been paying attention you would know that already and wouldn't have needed to ask.

Criticism is fine but this still looks like you're ranting but you're not (I think).á Right now I'm still waiting for the story to be written and finished before I judge it.
It's still criticism. Criticism mixed with snipes at the author's methodology perhaps, but I haven't yet hit the point where I'm making personal insults.
No need to be snippy... Heh heh snippy :snigger: ... Also from what you post I could interpret that differently and it takes a bit of effort to differentiate. Then again I'm a fairly lazy guy.
 
Thanks a ton Comartimis! That ouline looks awesome. I wouldnt bring the outers into it nessisarily, but some awesome ideas. I love the idea of Tux being prematurely activated. I would have him just miss Nanoha. You say he would be the equal in power to SM, but I would choose to say that while he has the same amount of power available he uses it in more supportive way. His roses can do so much, including desableing youma defences so the others can blast them. His very presence makes other senshi Better access to their memories, because they can tap into the strength of the ideals of the protecting knights. When I think of Tuxedo Mask (and i love tuxy) I think support. He can out duel any youma, he can empower the magical warriors, he can use the power of love to nerf evil. That sort of thing.

I think Artimis should find him wondering desperately around Uminari. I imagine he and Sailor V would end up partners in london. They could have a brother sister thing going.

Maybe they rush home after Naru dies? And Ami manages to transform into mercury with the help of luna, but is captured and forced to help Beryl. The senshi struggle along before the fic.

I really dont like the way allisa and precia were handled. In Sailor Moon the enemies are destroyed because they are pure evil. A major theme of Nanoha is that when people do bad things they do them for understandable reasons. Precia- Greif, Wolkenwritter- duty, Gil- well intentioned extreemism, Regulus- politics, jail- insanity. If precia is going to die have her do it to herself. It goes against the spirit of the characters otherwise.

One Idea I've had for a while is that the silver millenium was a somewhat small but major power at the hight of the belkan empire. When it was completely wiped out in less then a week (if i have facts wrong correct me, im not fact checking on an iphone right now) it through the balance of power totally out of wack leading the galactic fall of civilization.

I like the bad vibes thing, but Ami better be imprisoned and not dead or I... Will be kind of sad.
 

ragnarok1337

Well-Known Member
There was a throwaway line in one of the first chapters that where, after Yuuno said that Nanoha was always looking for a cause, Luna wished she had met Nanoha first. I'd like to see that run with. Or, when Nanoha is young, before she joins the TSAB officially(maybe just after the BoD incident) ,Luna happens across Nanoha. Or before the Jewel Seed incident. I think it would be interesting to read 10 year-old Nanoha juggling both the Dark Kingdom issue and the Jewel Seeds at the same time while desperately trying not to lose it with all the pressure.

Although Yuuno might be an unexpected boon. After the Jewel Seed incident is all over and done with, Nanoha finally has someone her age to hang out with, that can understand some of the pressures she's been feeling, and be able to help.

Maybe I should put this in the Nanoha Ideas thread.
 

Anonguy

Well-Known Member
*looks through thread. Nods head at the people supporting better crossovers through equal representation.*

In the words of the Rap Critic: "You don't have to like my opinion, but I don't have to like your fanfic." (Just a minor change obv.)

Certainly applies here.

Keep up the good work
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
The Ero-Sennin said:
bissek said:
That gets filed under DLDR - Don't Like, Don't Read.
Bissek, I'm going to have to stop you right there.

While subjective viewpoints should be respected. You, nor any author, should NEVER respond to criticism with "If you don't like it, don't read it." It is the most immature, degrading, and outright ignorant thing you can say to another reader who points out a valid inconsistency and lack of attention to detail in your stories.

I've never read The White Devil of the Moon. Hell, I've never watched Nanoha. But I am a writer, and from a writer who has been torn a new asshole on many occasions by critics. I not only do not tell them "DLDR", I tell them to keep reading. I dare them to, so I can swing back around and make them see the error of their ways with my writing. If they don't like it, then they'll drop it on their own, they don't need to be told.

If you tell them "Don't Like, Don't Read" you're just saying you cannot take the fact that people who read your work do not like it.
The original point of 'Don't Like, Don't Read' was a reaction to people who did not approve of a particular pairing or type of pairing (e. g. yaoi or yuri), or other controversial things (like BDSM, threesomes, et cetra) flaming the writer for writing it. Using it to say 'Don't bitch at me for writing Haruka and Michiru in their canon relationship' is perfectly valid.

The way bissek is using it is not, IMHO.
 
condonzack said:
Im sorry for the grammer and spelling- this is off an I-Phone.

Ok, i totally see where everybody is coming from. Is there a reason we must argue points we are not going to agree on and everyones opinion has been adaquatly stated?

I for one do not think the most importent part of crossover fanfiction is keeping balance. I dont really care THAT much about staying in character. Ifthe story is entertaining to me i read it. Artemis, if you are going to contenue to post then how about we make something constructive out of it?
The problem with that is that if you're going to write fanfiction of something then the characters should at least be somewhat recognizable as the actual characters that you are drawing them from. If people are going to write fanfiction where the character's are completely out of character for no real reason then what's the point of actually trying to write fanfiction in that series?

That largely seems to me to be what original writing should be for.

I dont think The basic idea of the fic is bad. (I dont think the fic itself is "bad" either but reading comartimis's rants makes me feel bad about humanity and im too much of a optimistic lover of both series to not try to stop the totally meaningless cyclical shouting.) basic plot: nanoha is the reincarnation of serenity, Luna finds her but she's recovering from her injeries. There must be miscommunication at first. How do you make it awesome?
First and foremost not having any of the characters on either side acting like massive caricatures of how they where in the actual series. This more then anything that I've seen can help cover up the usual plotholes and other issues that tend to pop when crossing over two (or more) series together and make a story work. Second is show how and why something has gotten to the way it has in-story if you're going to be adding massive changes to either the storyline or how the characters are.

It doesn't have to be done in the first or second chapter but by the six and seventh their should be at least some hints to why things are different and so long as its fairly reasonable that usually seems to be enough for most people.

Also to me the mishmashing that bissek is doing of the anime and manga (along with some of the more annoying elements of fanon) just gets irritating after a while. I wouldn't mind so much if he was sticking largely to one or the other and using minor elements of the other to fill in plotholes or such but so far what he's been doing is cherry-picking elements from the Sailor Moon that makes the characters from that side look like incompetent idiots. Not to mention the massive, massive plotholes for anyone who's bothered to read or watch Sailor Moon that seem to keep showing up.

And while some plotholes are to be expected, my problem with ones in The White Devil of the Moon is that the majority of plotholes that are their are largely do to how the author has been forcing the plot forward like he has and seem like they could be easily fixed if the Bissek bothered to do so. Mostly all it'd require is for him not to keep forcing the Sailor Moon characters completely ooc and worshiping the idiot ball like he has been doing and show that supposed skill that they seemly picked up and lost sometime during that year that they were holding their own against the Dark Kingdom.

Not having the Nanoha characters repeatedly stomp everything largely through forced plot would also be nice but this point I'd just go with the SM-side being somewhat reasonably well written.

Current major plotholes off the top of my head include:

1. Knowing who the hell Princess Serenity's reincarnation is supposed to be. Sailor Moon was basically something of a stopgap measure against the Dark Kingdom while both sides searched for the reborn princess and Ginzuishou. It wasn't until the crystal basically appeared in Usagi's hands that anyone realized that she was actually Serenity.

2. Minako being with the other Senshi for no given reason. Without Usagi there to make friends and convince her to join up with the other Senshi, she is still going to be doing her own thing pretending to be Princess Serenity in order to by the other Senshi time.

3. How all of the Sailor Moon characters have been forced to keep a firm hold of the idiotball and have yet to show any real real sign of how the hell they managed to hold their own against the Dark Kingdom for a entire year.

4. Just how the Senshi and Tuxedo Mask have managed to hold their own against the Dark Kingdom for a entire year when the clock is against them.

4a. And more importantly how the hell they've managed to keep the entire thing largely under wraps and without a massive death toll without somebody around who's capable of resurrecting and re-energizing people who have been drained by the Dark Kingdom.

5. WHY Tuxedo Mask is with the Senshi for no given reason. Outside of Usagi, neither Luna nor the other Senshi thought of him as being trustworthy and depending on whether you go by anime or manga. Mamoru is either not going to be active yet or is going to be continuly stealing jewels in order to try and find the Ginzuishou before anyone else.

5a. Just how he apparently managed to get into a leadership role among the Senshi when almost none of the other members had a reason to trust him.

6. As somebody more familiar with the manga then the anime, what appears to be a entirely forced plotline of the Senshi and Mamoru being completely OOC trying to force a romantic relationship onto Nanoha because she's the reborn princess. Not only is there no reason given for why the Senshi or the cats to give a damn about said relationship but if their first loyalty is supposedly to the reborn princess ...not the reborn prince of what was a hostile nation.

6a. Having largely forgotten the anime I can't say much about it but in the manga at least a good bit of the early relationship between Usagi and Mamoru came from them getting to know each other and not just from memories of a previous life. Without that chance of the two of them getting to know one another, there's no real reason for him to nearly as adamit as he is in this.

7. How the characters have apparently recovered the memories of their previous lives and also just why they haven't gotten any of the powerjump that they got when they did so.

8. ...The entire Sailor Pluto pieces.

9. Why with a entire year and all of the generals still alive and active the Dark Kingdom has made no real progress.
 

Seiya

Well-Known Member
6a. Having largely forgotten the anime I can't say much about it but in the manga at least a good bit of the early relationship between Usagi and Mamoru came from them getting to know each other and not just from memories of a previous life. Without that chance of the two of them getting to know one another, there's no real reason for him to nearly as adamit as he is in this.
Even in the anime long before the Serenity business. Tuxedo Kamen fell hard for Sailor Moon. He saw her as someone precious he needed to protect. Dude even took her first kiss dozens of episodes before the Serenity reveal. He broke down when he couldn't protect Usagi and the senshi from Zoicite in the anime after he got stabbed by the fake and Venus jumped in to the fray.

He loved Sailor Moon, not Serenity in the anime and the manga because Usagi earned his love long before the reveal. Fanon just exaggerates the hell out of it and everyone needs to rewatch the anime. He would never be interested in Nanoha except to see if she could cure his amnesia. He'd never try forcing a relationship making Bissek's "I hate reincarnation romance " complaint pointless when it comes to Sailor Moon.
 
I misspoke. It is not that i dont think keeping characters in character is importent. Its that I rend to give alot more leeway then others, exspecialy when its a au fic. But i degress.

In stead of making the reincarnation into nanoha a mistakr, why not make the original serenity like nanoha? Ir at least through out the vast diffence. The whole 'Nanoha rejects the princess' thing comes off as a direct attack in Sailor Moon. Ive watched sailor moon. Usagi may have been lazy and at times selfish- but when it came down to it she found motivation in helping others. The basic need to serve a cause is present in both. Im like usagi in that way- I cant get motivated about self improvement but can when it comes to helping others. When that same sort of thing is put under the takamichi upbriging you get nanoha- who is painfully aware if her potential and the limited time she has but has no cause to direct it. They are both fundimentally kind people. Its just Nanoha was taught that the best way of showing kindness is curbstomping.

Speaking of befreinding, i think Nephrite at least should have an orbital heel face turn. In true nanoha fasion, the heroes must try to find out the motivation of their foes. What is the motivation the the dark generals? Well for Nephrite at least it seams to be that he simply doesnt know anything else.
 

Comartemis

Well-Known Member
condonzack said:
In stead of making the reincarnation into nanoha a mistakr, why not make the original serenity like nanoha?
Because it wouldn't be Serenity, it'd be some Nanoha-like OC with Serenity's name stamped on her.
 

staplesdex2

Well-Known Member
Still a possibility. Personally it would be O.K. as it would depend on perception.
 

Anonguy

Well-Known Member
staplesdex2 said:
Still a possibility. Personally it would be O.K. as it would depend on perception.
No, it would not be ok. It would never be ok.

If you think it'd be ok, you're the last person to offer anyone advice on anything ever.
 

Comartemis

Well-Known Member
Well I wouldn't say that. Altering characters is easy, you just need to justify it rather than "just making her that way". The question that needs to be asked is how Serenity could plausibly become more like Nanoha in her backstory. Though since Serenity only exists to the modern Senshi through flashbacks and occasional appearances through Usagi you'd have to make frequent use of flashbacks to display whatever changes you make to her character.
 

The Ero-Sennin

The Eyes of Heaven
Staff member
Also, if you're going to change an aspect of the story, get ready to work hard to change every other aspect that follows as a response to the initial change. When faced with different circumstances, characters are going to respond differently.

The Butterfly Effect/For Want of A Nail is a fucking bitch.
 

Anonguy

Well-Known Member
When you start fucking with an established world, it fucks back in unexpected ways.

Truefax, when I started First I Giveth, I hated Akane like an edgy little teenager rebelling against "the man". And then I started working on the story. And writing her, examining her. And come to find out I hated something that wasn't her at all.

You can sit there and go, "BAM! Nanoha is actually Serenity." all you fucking want, but you better fucking work on it, or else motherfucker. You'll look in the mirror and realize that you've become Perfect Lionheart.

And no one wants that.
 

staplesdex2

Well-Known Member
Anonguy:
When you start fucking with an established world, it fucks back in unexpected ways.

Truefax, when I started First I Giveth, I hated Akane like an edgy little teenager rebelling against "the man". And then I started working on the story. And writing her, examining her. And come to find out I hated something that wasn't her at all.

You can sit there and go, "BAM! Nanoha is actually Serenity." all you fucking want, but you better fucking work on it, or else motherfucker. You'll look in the mirror and realize that you've become Perfect Lionheart.

And no one wants that.
Crude but true. Then again I don't want to stick to the canon too much, and I like canon. I just want something that has canon with a little bit of deviation. I just hope that bissek doesn't get upset too much and stops writing the story. Hope he still continues it. There's nothing like forging on in spite of what naysayers and critics say and finishing it and then starting over.
 

Seiya

Well-Known Member
Bissek's deviation was supposedly what if Nanoha was serenity and not Usagi. That's the only deviation that's apparently supposed to be taking place. Bissek has ignored all the all out from the changes that would bring and just decided to replace the entire universe of SM with characters who hold idiot balls. That's not a "little deviation."

Bissek hasn't kept any SM character IC since the fic started.
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
Meh, it's an old syndrome. Remember all those fanfics where Ranma takes the Senshi as his students and then starts showing off and berating them on how ineffective they were?

. . . Yeah, the good old days actually sucked a lot. And you nearly had to blow someone just to get anime/manga that wasn't mainstream.
 

Nanya

Well-Known Member
Shiakou said:
Meh, it's an old syndrome. Remember all those fanfics where Ranma takes the Senshi as his students and then starts showing off and berating them on how ineffective they were?

. . . Yeah, the good old days actually sucked a lot. And you nearly had to blow someone just to get anime/manga that wasn't mainstream.
True, they did...

But at least there were more updates back then.
 
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