RE: The Naruversity
Edit: Disregard based off of knight54's posting of a better translation said:
Altered Nova said:
I do find it interesting that Jiraiya implied that in-universe jutsu ranking extends multiple ranks well beyond A-rank, but the databooks ignore that and just lump everything higher together as S-rank.
Six grades above the second... "A"-rank ultra high level.
My only problem is, what the hell does this sentence mean? I assume he calls it "A"-rank ultra high level because S-rank hadn't been introduced yet. Does anyone have a better translation?
It's obviously a bad translation, seeing as it appears to imply that "He (Minato) was six grades above" an A-rank Ninja. Seeing as it's shown early on that A-rank corresponds to Jounin:
Jiraiya saying that makes very little sense to me. What, was Minato SSSSSS-rank? Was he a Super Special Awesome Chocolatey Fudge-Coated Super Kage?
There's never been any suggestion that there's a level above "S." Minato got a flee-on-sight rating, but SS-rank is complete fanon.
If jutsu grades are ranked from lowest to highest, by "second" he could be referring to D-rank. In that case, six grades up from that would be a 70 on your scale, or SSS-rank. This makes more sense to me than assuming he was referring to "... the second [highest after S]". Not sure where you got that idea from, unless you were just trying to justify making Rasengan a 100 on your scale.
...So if I asked you to give me an example of a Second-grade/rate anything, you'd name a second from worst something instead of a second-best something?
To me it makes way more sense that's he's referring to the second best after S-rank, and the six grades was to point out that the technique was so far above other A-rank techniques in one aspect (Shape Transformation) that it more than made up for the fact that it completely neglected any other "Transformations."
The "Ultra-High" was probably just a way of emphasising the difficulty of the A-rank technique. Kind of like how Tazuna added "Super" as a prefix every other sentence. And it wouldn't be six grades up from D-rank, as the academy 3 are E-rank.
Which I think is unwarranted - Rasengan is high level shape transformation, but it's obviously not the very pinnacle. We've seen more advanced versions of Rasengan that would certainly require higher levels of shape transformation to pull off - Big Ball variants for one, and that crazy Planetary Rasengan.
I'll admit it, this one stumped me for a while. The manga says that the Rasengan is the highest level of Shape Manipulation. The entry for the Rasenshuriken in the 3rd Databook includes this sentence:
Adding "Wind" "nature manipulation" to the Rasengan, already boasting tremendous destructive power by having raised "shape transformation" to its utmost limits...!!
So I figured that the Big Ball Rasengan was literally just a bigger Rasengan. Same level of Shape Transformation, just with more chakra. Same with Jiraiya's Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan (which is stated in its 3rd Databook entry to just be a result of adding natural energy to a Rasengan,) Naruto's Sage Art: Big Ball Rasengan (which is a Sage version of the Big Ball,) and the Planetary Rasengan, which is just a Big Ball Rasengan surrounded by three regular-sized Rasengan. Same principle as Kakashi forming a Lightning Cutter in each hand to counteract Kakuzu's Lightning Release: False Darkness. Same technique, performed more than once.
But then I read this:
Databook 3 - Oodama Rasengan:
NINJUTSU; Oodama Rasengan (King-Sized* Spiraling Orb)
User: Uzumaki Naruto
Offensive; Close range; Rank: A
Main text
Rasengan: A first-rate ninjutsu that yields destructive power by having chakra rotating wildly in the palm of the hand, while compressing it into a high density. Following a similar pattern, the amount of chakra employed is augmented rapidly, resulting in the Oodama Rasengan. Compacted into an even higher density than usual, the chakra is released all at once, producing an outrageously destructive force, regardless of whether the target is hit or not...!! That said, the chakra consumption is also incredible, proportionately to its might. One could say this is a jutsu for no one except Naruto, who possesses Kyuubi's nigh-inexhaustible supply of chakra.
The sentence about the amount of chakra being augmented is fine, as the level of Shape Transformation doesn't change. But the fact that the chakra is compacted to "an even higher density than usual" implies that further Shape Transformation is being applied.
So there's a contradiction. A technique that's supposed to be the pinnacle of Shape Transformation is improved further into an Odama version. How could this be resolved?
Then I had an epiphany. Remember this?
From the very first time we see him do it, Minato's Rasengan has always been the same size as the Big Ball Rasengan.
And if that's not enough, how about this?
Towards the end of SWW4, Naruto's regular Rasengan increased to the size of the Big Ball variant.
It may be a retcon, but I think that Naruto's Big Ball Rasengan
is Minato's Rasengan, except for the usage of clones. The version we see Jiraiya and Kakashi use is a slightly inferior replica that was the best they could do due to not having maxed out their Shape Transformation. To revise my earlier numbers, Naruto achieved about 45% of Shape Transformation, and so with the help of a clone, could create the same type of Imperfect Rasengan as Kakashi and Jiraiya, who each had somewhere in the region of 90% Shape Transformation, while Minato created the pinnacle of Shape Transformation, having mastered it completely at 100%. During the Time-skip, Naruto passed the half-way point for Shape Transformation, and could therefore use a clone to create the Big Ball/Minato's Original Rasengan.
Jiraiya's Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan is adding natural energy to an Imperfect Rasengan, while Naruto's Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan is just adding more chakra to the Big Ball/Original/Minato's Rasengan, which can then be combined with Sage Mode and more Shadow Clones for the Sage Art: Many Ultra-Big Ball Spiralling Serial Spheres.
That's probably even the difference between the Wind Release Rasengan and the Rasenshuriken! The former is the Imperfect Rasengan + Wind Transformation, while the Rasenshuriken is the Big Ball/Minato's OG Rasengan + Wind Transformation.
Even Naruto and Sasuke's final clash supports this idea! Sasuke powers up his Chidori with his Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi, but Naruto's Rasengan still equals it. How could it do that, when the Chidori and the basic Rasengan (that Naruto used in every prior clash) were equal?
Hell, compare this:
With this:
New Headcanon accepted.
I'd also say that Chidori likely isn't A-rank in shape transformation, because it's shape is so simple and basic. It literally just concentrates a bunch of chakra in the hand, it's not even sharpened to an edge (like the Third Raikage's Hell Stab ) and requires the user to run at the target at high speed to give it enough force to penetrate.
So I'd say that Rasengan is likely 70/100 in Shape, while Chidori is 20/100 in Shape and 40/100 in Nature for a total 60.
I'l admit you might have a point here. Maybe the Nature Transformation is somewhat higher to compensate for the comparitively less complex Shape Transformation. So the total is still 80%, but it's a 50%/30% split. Keep in mind that if my theory is correct, the Rasengan is literally more than twice as complex in shape compared to most other A-rank Jutsu, and four times as complex as C-rank Jutsu meant for Chuunin and Experienced Genin (which sort of ties in with Kakashi's philsophy that 3 Genin can beat a Jounin with teamwork,) such as the Great Fireball Jutsu, which is either a big orb of fiery chakra or a constant flamethrower. Neither of those two options are particularly complex.
ankokudaishogun said:
2. SHARINGAN ISN'T MONKEY SEE MONKEY DO!
We're flat told it's up to the user to apply the knowledge learned by the Sharingan to use in replicate the jutsu.
Which explains why KAKASHI was known as the Copy Nin when there were the Uchiha clan: most Uchiha, while talented, weren't ninjutsu super-genius like Kakashi is.
Give Lee the Sharingan and he couldn't copy a D-Rank Ninjutsu because he has no talent at all for it.
Yes, but the point that I was making is that the Sharingan can see chakra. Sasuke would be able to see what Electrically-recomposed/transformed chakra looks like even before Kakashi concentrates enough chakra to his hand that it becomes visible, and he might be able to look at the leaf he's trying to crinkle (assuming that the first stage of Lighting Transformation in similar to Wind's) and see what he's doing wrong. The difference between having to assemble a jigsaw puzzle either with or without knowing what the picture is.
3. Killer B is a 30-so Jonin who did team-up with the candidate Raikage since he was 5. He's simply much more experienced than Sasuke... or Sasuke was never in the position to bother with such use of Raiton.
Also, 4th Raikage does note that Sasuke's Chidori uses "Kakashi's trick": use Raiton to increase penetration and hardness. I believe Chidori basically is a Raiton force-field focused in the palm and\or around the arm to turn it into a spear-like piercing point.
Good point as to the former, and as to the latter, put on your Forehead Protector 'cause you totally Ninja'd me!
knight504 said:
"It took Lord Fourth a full three years to perfect this jutsu...A level five out of six. Second from the top! An A-rank super-advanced ninjutsu."
And I don't think it was ever said how long it took Jiraiya (or Kakash) to learn the Rasengan.
Thanks, knight504! Appreciate it!
All right, forget most of my scale, though I do still believe that the Rasengan must use at least twice as much Shape Transformation as the Chidori in order to make up for it not involving Nature Transformation.
And yeah, I must have accidentally accepted fanon that Jiraiya learnt the Rasengan in a year as canon.
ankokudaishogun said:
That said, Chidori might appear simple, because it's basic shape manipulation and basic nature manipulation.
But we don't have to forget using BOTH at the same time is really hard.
For Naruto, who still kind of sucks at concentrating.
Also: I don't remember Naruto using a NORMAL Rasengan in Shippuden?
If by normal you mean basic initial Rasengan with a clone to help form it, then yeah he used it quite a bit. Sparring with Sai on the way to Tenchi Bridge comes to mind. If you mean the one-handed or the one-handed larger version, then he used it a few times during SWW4, but don't ask me to quote chapter numbers aside from the last fight with Sasuke.